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Thread: Puncturing the Myth

  1. #1
    What is it with this myth that says the Yankees are hurting in the pitching department?

    This myth seems to be gathering steam ... gaining a life of it's own ... yet it couldn't be further from the truth

    If you wanna say the Yankees staff needs to remain healthy or rely on injuries to seal their fate ... THAT'S ONE THING

    But don't tell me this is not a good staff when healthy ... that's just insane

    Kevin Brown is nasty ... downright filthy ... the definition of an ace

    Mike Mussina is always good for his 17-19 Wins

    Javier Vazquez is one of the best young arms in the game

    Jon Lieber is a former 20 Game Winner who is a year and a half away and fully recovered from TJ Surgery ... show me the last 20 Game Winner who DID NOT bounce back from TJS, cause there are a slew of pitchers who came back from TJS and never missed a beat ... most of whom swear they throw harder after TJS ... there's even a running joke in MLB about pitchers wanting TJS just so they can throw harder, even though they don't need it

    PS. Mariano Rivera had TJS in the minors ... and only went on the become the greatest closer who ever lived!!

    And lastly, Jose Contreras struggled in relief ... but he was 5-1 as a Starter and far more dominant ... for the record, all he ever did in Cuba was START, so this is the only role he knows

    Bottom Line: If this is what the Yankee haters are hangin their hats on ... somehow believing the Yankees lack quality starting pitching ... they are in for a LONG HOT SUMMER

    And I know they're not referring to the bullpen ... Yanks might have the best bullpen in baseball ... definitely right near the top

  2. #2
    Maxman
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    Ham someone said in another thread that the Yankees Pen was depleted. I almost fell out of my chair when I read that. I thought the same thing that you just wrote here...must stay healthy or many other reasons why they could fail. But there is talent in the pen. There is talent in the rotation.

    Certainly I wish Pettite was back but he isn't...life goes on. But the Yankees will be fine.

  3. #3
    Originally posted by Maxman@Feb 18 2004, 07:41 PM
    Ham someone said in another thread that the Yankees Pen was depleted. I almost fell out of my chair when I read that. I thought the same thing that you just wrote here...must stay healthy or many other reasons why they could fail. But there is talent in the pen. There is talent in the rotation.

    Certainly I wish Pettite was back but he isn't...life goes on. But the Yankees will be fine.
    Max, did you catch the PS I added?

    Mariano Rivera had TJS in the minors ... how'd that workout?

    As for the pen .....

    Mariano Rivera
    Tom Gordon
    Steve Karsay
    Paul Quantrill
    Felix Heredia
    Gabe White

    NUFF SAID

  4. #4
    Maxman
    Guest
    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham+Feb 18 2004, 08:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Green Jets & Ham @ Feb 18 2004, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Maxman@Feb 18 2004, 07:41 PM
    Ham someone said in another thread that the Yankees Pen was depleted. I almost fell out of my chair when I read that. I thought the same thing that you just wrote here...must stay healthy or many other reasons why they could fail. But there is talent in the pen. There is talent in the rotation.

    Certainly I wish Pettite was back but he isn&#39;t...life goes on. But the Yankees will be fine.
    Max, did you catch the PS I added?

    Mariano Rivera had TJS in the minors ... how&#39;d that workout?

    As for the pen .....

    Mariano Rivera
    Tom Gordon
    Steve Karsay
    Paul Quantrill
    Felix Heredia
    Gabe White

    NUFF SAID [/b][/quote]
    This is friggin hilarious. I listed the Yankees pen in another thread and I forget Steve Karsay.

    I just checked your PS. Very true. That was strange with Mariano because he actually threw harder after the surgery then he did before it. He wasn&#39;t a huge prospect and then he impressed the hell out of them late in 95. The rest is history.

    I can&#39;t wait for baseball. I got a promotion a few months ago. Am I happy about many of the perks that a promotion brings...kind of. Am I estatic that I now have an office with a window and perfect AM radio reception...HELL YES. Bring on the DAY GAMES. LOL.

  5. #5
    It is the dredded P word when it comes to the Yanks staff - potential.

    Moose is a given stud. No question marks there.

    Lieber - A former 20 game winner. Nice. A career 66-77 record minus that one 20 win season. Not nice. While his 6-8 record in 2002 had a lower ERA then his 20 win season - he is/will be 34 this season and coming off a major injury. Will he bounce back? Will he be bale to pitch deep in many games?

    Brown - If you get the 1996-2000 or 2003 Brown - great signing. If you get the 2002 Brown that pitched 63 innings - oh oh. Or the 2001 Brown that pitched - oh oh. His injury is back related and he is 39 - yikes.

    Contreras - The 33 yo *wink wink* did have a nice postseason and beat up on some scrubs late. Is that the real Jose or the one that got rocked earlier?

    Vazquez - IMHO an excellent pick-up. The best one of the Yanks offseason. Although it is a stretch, what if he has Weaveritis and melts under the NY scrutiny like that silver chain wearing Weaver? Slim chance, but it couyld happen.

    The bottomline is the Yanks have one sure thing, one pretty sure things and thre questions as their starting pitching.

  6. #6
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    Jon Lieber had one fluke 20-win season, then had arm surgery. Asking for 15 wins from him is crazy... he is an average 4th or 5th starter at best. He&#39;s not starting a playoff game for you, so I guess it doesn&#39;t matter anyway. Just saying, let&#39;s not make your starters out to be Murderers&#39; Row III (with your lineup MR II).

    Another thing on Brown: Don&#39;t EVER pick him for your fantasy team. The guy ruined me in 2001. :lol:

  7. #7
    Originally posted by Jetsacuse@Feb 18 2004, 08:31 PM
    Jon Lieber had one fluke 20-win season, then had arm surgery. Asking for 15 wins from him is crazy...
    If that were true George would have signed Greg Muddux :lol:

    Unless George feel asleep at the wheel?

    HEY GEORGE, how could you leave Maddux out there for the Cubbies????? :lol:

  8. #8
    Maxman
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    Originally posted by Jetsacuse@Feb 18 2004, 09:31 PM
    Jon Lieber had one fluke 20-win season, then had arm surgery. Asking for 15 wins from him is crazy... he is an average 4th or 5th starter at best. He&#39;s not starting a playoff game for you, so I guess it doesn&#39;t matter anyway. Just saying, let&#39;s not make your starters out to be Murderers&#39; Row III (with your lineup MR II).
    Lieber is not a top starter. He is a good 5th starter though and that is what I envision him being for the Yankees. He usually had a 4.00 ERA in the NL so it will probably equate to 4.50 in the AL. That should be more then enough to win 14-15 games for the Yankees this year (health permitting).

  9. #9
    Hey Max, don&#39;t forget the TJ Surgery ... should add a few MPH to Lieber&#39;s heater :lol:

  10. #10
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    I know the Boston pukes want to believe themselves when saying the Yanks will have a tough time with the pitching......but I&#39;ll listen to 2 major league catchers&#33;&#33; We may just have our 5th ace :lol:

    TAMPA -- Jorge Posada developed a close relationship with his starting pitchers over the past six years, helping the Yankees reach the World Series five times since becoming the team&#39;s starting catcher.
    This spring, which officially got underway on Tuesday with the arrival of pitchers and catchers, presents a new challenge for the 32-year-old backstop, as New York boasts a starting rotation featuring three hurlers -- Kevin Brown, Javier Vazquez and Jon Lieber -- who have not thrown to Posada before.

    Despite the absence of a left-hander (the Yankees lost southpaws Andy Pettitte and David Wells to free agency), Posada feels that the starting rotation, which also features Mike Mussina and Jose Contreras, remains one of the team&#39;s strengths.

    "I love it. They say we need a lefty, but I think we just need five pitchers," Posada said. "We need five guys to go out there and not get hurt. I love Javier Vazquez, I love Kevin Brown. You can talk about Mussina and Contreras, but the main guy here is going to be Jon Lieber. I think he&#39;s going to be outstanding."

    Lieber is returning from 2002 Tommy John elbow surgery, having missed the last 1 1/2 seasons while rehabbing. Backup catcher John Flaherty agrees with Posada that Lieber is the key to New York&#39;s success, though he lumps Brown&#39;s health into that category as well.

    "Our staff is stronger than it was at any time last year," said Flaherty, who believes that the additions of Tom Gordon and Paul Quantrill were a significant upgrade. "We&#39;re going in with a loaded bullpen, and if we can keep Brownie and Lieber healthy, our rotation is as good as anybody&#39;s. The front office has done its job, now it&#39;s our turn."

  11. #11
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    The only thing George has to do when it comes to beating the Sawx&#33;&#33;



  12. #12
    BIG JON, I&#39;ll say it right now, without hesitation ... the health of the pitching staff is the key to the Yankees season

    If all 5 Starters remain healthy in 2004, the Yankees CANNOT lose the division

    CAN&#39;T HAPPEN

    If the bullpen remains healthy as well, the Yankees will win the A.L EAST by a fairly wide margain

    Lastly, if the entire team remains healthy for the most part ... not even entirely, but just no season ending injuries ... the Yankees will threaten the record for wins in a season {116?}

    IF HEALTHY .....

    1. They have a lineup that will score over 1,000 Runs ... one of the most lethal lineups ever assembled

    2. The SP&#39;s will be far better than folks may suspect ... FAR BETTER ... and with this lineup they only need to be GOOD, not lights out ... but they will be BETTER THAN GOOD

    3. The Bullpen will be amongst the best in baseball ... if not the very best

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham@Feb 19 2004, 12:02 AM
    BIG JON, I&#39;ll say it right now, without hesitation ... the health of the pitching staff is the key to the Yankees season

    If all 5 Starters remain healthy in 2004, the Yankees CANNOT lose the division

    CAN&#39;T HAPPEN

    If the bullpen remains healthy as well, the Yankees will win the A.L EAST by a fairly wide margain

    Lastly, if the entire team remains healthy for the most part ... not even entirely, but just no season ending injuries ... the Yankees will threaten the record for wins in a season {116?}

    IF HEALTHY .....

    1. They have a lineup that will score over 1,000 Runs ... one of the most lethal lineups ever assembled

    2. The SP&#39;s will be far better than folks may suspect ... FAR BETTER ... and with this lineup they only need to be GOOD, not lights out ... but they will be BETTER THAN GOOD

    3. The Bullpen will be amongst the best in baseball ... if not the very best
    With this lineup and rotation, if i were a yankee fan then I&#39;d expext 120 wins. It&#39;s too good to get caught up in a division race.

    But like I keep saying, BRING ON THE SEASON&#33;&#33;&#33;

    Btw, I may have 1 spare ticket for the Patriots Day game at Fenway.

  14. #14
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    The Sawx have 3 solid starters. Schilling is as potentially brittle as Brown. Pedro will go on the DL. And then they have Kim and Wakefield, who, you might recall, have both had some shaky postseason moments in the Bronx. And that&#39;s so much better than Leiber and Contreras? And as far as pens go, it&#39;s not even close-the Yankees pen has the potential to be as good as any in history. Gordon, Qauntrill or Karsay could close with most teams. Heredia and White are as good as any middlemen around. And Rivera is still the best reliever EVER.

  15. #15
    Maxman
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    Originally posted by Bugg@Feb 19 2004, 12:41 AM
    The Sawx have 3 solid starters. Schilling is as potentially brittle as Brown. Pedro will go on the DL. And then they have Kim and Wakefield, who, you might recall, have both had some shaky postseason moments in the Bronx. And that&#39;s so much better than Leiber and Contreras? And as far as pens go, it&#39;s not even close-the Yankees pen has the potential to be as good as any in history. Gordon, Qauntrill or Karsay could close with most teams. Heredia and White are as good as any middlemen around. And Rivera is still the best reliever EVER.
    Bugg go back and read the old threads...Mariano is done. The naysayers proclaimed this as gospel last May. He is scared, lost his edge, no longer has talent. It is all over for him....LOL.

  16. #16
    TomShane
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    I think it&#39;s because the Yanks pitching got smoked the WS last year and then went out and got worse by losing Pettite and Clemens.

    As far as Brown, odds are that he doesn&#39;t make it through the whole season-- hell, odds are that he won&#39;t make it through half of the season.

    Contreras was, what, 7-2? I like this pitcher, but you can&#39;t say he&#39;s a sure bet...yet. Same with Vazquez. We have to see if Vazquez can pitch in NY yet. Some say he&#39;s metallky fragile.

    Mussina cracks. You know what I mean.


    If you&#39;re going into a series, I&#39;d say that it&#39;d be exponentially tougher to face Martinez-Schilling-Lowe that it would be to face Mussina-Brown-Vazquez, by far. Regardless of who&#39;s hitting.

    Not to worry though. I&#39;m sure if things get tight for George, that he&#39;ll go and get the Tim Hudsons or Ben Sheets&#39;s of the world.

  17. #17
    Maxman
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    Originally posted by TomShane@Feb 19 2004, 11:21 AM
    I think it&#39;s because the Yanks pitching got smoked the WS last year and then went out and got worse by losing Pettite and Clemens.
    Game 1 the Yankees gave up 3 runs.
    Game 2 the Yankees gave up 1 run.
    Game 3 the Yankees gave up 1 run.
    Game 4 the Yankees gave up 4 runs.
    Game 5 the Yankees gave up 6 runs.
    Game 6 the Yankees gave up 2 runs.

    I would exactly call that getting smoked.

    The Yankees were shutting out in the deciding game of the World Series. Adding more offense to this team was certainly in order. This team will only be shut out once this year...mark my words. (A rainy night in April vs KC).

    The Yankees lost Wells who took himself out of a World Series game because he is fat. Newsflash, he is gone but he is still fat.

    They lost Clemens who had a great career but is going to be 42. How much could he possibly have left?

    They lost Pettite. That is huge, no doubt.

    But however you slice it the Yankees staff is one of the best in baseball from top to bottom.

  18. #18
    TomShane
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    Originally posted by Maxman+Feb 19 2004, 11:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maxman @ Feb 19 2004, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TomShane@Feb 19 2004, 11:21 AM
    I think it&#39;s because the Yanks pitching got smoked the WS last year and then went out and got worse by losing Pettite and Clemens.
    Game 1 the Yankees gave up 3 runs.
    Game 2 the Yankees gave up 1 run.
    Game 3 the Yankees gave up 1 run.
    Game 4 the Yankees gave up 4 runs.
    Game 5 the Yankees gave up 6 runs.
    Game 6 the Yankees gave up 2 runs.

    I would exactly call that getting smoked.

    The Yankees were shutting out in the deciding game of the World Series. Adding more offense to this team was certainly in order. This team will only be shut out once this year...mark my words. (A rainy night in April vs KC).

    The Yankees lost Wells who took himself out of a World Series game because he is fat. Newsflash, he is gone but he is still fat.

    They lost Clemens who had a great career but is going to be 42. How much could he possibly have left?

    They lost Pettite. That is huge, no doubt.

    But however you slice it the Yankees staff is one of the best in baseball from top to bottom. [/b][/quote]
    Don&#39;t contradict me, you homo. And how DARE you pull out the FACTS when I&#39;m making a baseless point&#33;&#33;?&#33;? You, YOU, YOU&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

  19. #19
    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham@Feb 19 2004, 04:02 AM
    If all 5 Starters remain healthy in 2004, the Yankees CANNOT lose the division

    CAN&#39;T HAPPEN

    If the bullpen remains healthy as well, the Yankees will win the A.L EAST by a fairly wide margain

    Lastly, if the entire team remains healthy for the most part ... not even entirely, but just no season ending injuries ... the Yankees will threaten the record for wins in a season {116?}

    IF HEALTHY .....

    1. They have a lineup that will score over 1,000 Runs ... one of the most lethal lineups ever assembled

    2. The SP&#39;s will be far better than folks may suspect ... FAR BETTER ... and with this lineup they only need to be GOOD, not lights out ... but they will be BETTER THAN GOOD

    3. The Bullpen will be amongst the best in baseball ... if not the very best
    The Yanks will not score 1000 runs this season or will they will win the AL East.

    Yanks won the division by 6 games last year.

    Between A-Rod and Shef they have added 86 HRs and 250 RBIs. Between losing Sorianio, Mondesi and Company in Right and Ventura and Boone at third, they have lost 75 HRs and 234 RBIs. Unless they get a Soriano type performance from their 2B, they will fall well short 1000 runs. They scored 877 last year. Pencil them in for about 915-930.

    The Sox added a solid starter and fortified their bullpen and added an excellent closer to their weakest point. Even an injured Schilling is 100x better then Burkett and with Foulke closing, most of those games blown are now Ws. Pedro himself lost 4 leads to the bullpen. What the Sox lose in Walker&#39;s offense, they make in Pookey Reese&#39;s defense - in other words a wash.

    Face it the Sox win the division and the World Series.

  20. #20
    Maxman
    Guest
    PFSIKH:
    I like the analysis. But you don&#39;t factor in the Yankees new and improved bullpen. What is up with that?

    FLASH FLASH BABY.

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