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Thread: Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda...

  1. #21
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by JonEJet[/i]@Mar 8 2004, 10:29 PM
    [b] RS


    I think there was another team involved...and TB and HE made it sound as if Justin Mc. was their #1 offseason choice.

    The Jets could not wait to develope a 2nd rounk WR...so they went after a young guy that can do something for us next year...not in 2007 [/b][/quote]
    Right.

    Hey, if McCareins turns into a star WR), this will have been a good move, I can't question that.

    I don't think next year should be the focus, '05 should be.

    McCareins is young, so he'll be helpful then too, but if they overpaid just because he'll contribute next year, that was, imo, a mistake.

  2. #22
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    And while Bradway was dicking around trying to get a worse second rounder to give the Titans, they trade him to somebody else, and you would be calling him a moron. It was a fair trade. I don't think it was an incredible trade but it could turn out to be. It could also turn out to be a bad trade. But right now it is what it is - a fair trade.

  3. #23
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    I felt the same way Pyper did at first. I had nothing against McCareins, I just thought we could have waited till draft day. But after talking to a couple guys, Bongo59 especially, I have changed my tune. When there is a guy out there who you want on your team, you do what it takes to get him immediately. If you wait, you risk losing him and quite frankly I'm sure we would all be pissed if our WR core consisted of M Robinson and S Moss instead of McCareins and Moss.

  4. #24
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    we think you guys got the better of it......but it is hard to say until we see who is there at 42........and how he does.......we gave up a probowl caliber reciever for a lottery ticket...........

  5. #25
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    This is what you resort to Pyper?

    Come on, it was a good trade, your hypothetical trades for swapping 2's and all that jazz is ridiculous. Why don't you make fun of our weak secondary or rookie D coordinator instead of trying to burst our bubble about a newly aquired player who we got for less than his own team valued him.

    Sounds like a succesful trade to me.

  6. #26
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by RichardSeymour+Mar 8 2004, 10:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (RichardSeymour @ Mar 8 2004, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -PYPER@Mar 8 2004, 10:21 PM
    [b] [quote]Originally posted by -Green Jets & Ham@Mar 8 2004, 10:03 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--Green Jets & Ham[/i]@Mar 8 2004, 07:56 PM
    [b] And why can&#39;t the Jets still trade down from 12 and aquire a 2? :blink: [/b][/quote]
    The Question still stands <_< [/b][/quote]
    The question wasn&#39;t answered because it has nothing to do with anything.

    What they do or don&#39;t do with their 1st rounder has no impact on the fact that they left picks on the table by not trading down prior to sending the Titans a second rounder.

    Bradway and company elected for the "SIMPLE" way rather than the way that would net them the greatest value. The bottom line is that they could have netted the player they wanted AND a pick or two.......But instead, they just got the player. [/b][/quote]
    Pyper, that line of reasoning is so wrong it&#39;s not even funny....

    The Jets didn&#39;t forfeit the #2 to the Titans (and even if they did NFL rules require it be equal to or higher than a teams "own" #2), they traded it. The Titans made the trade for the Jets #42 overall...... they might have NOT made it for the #55 or #64 overall....

    Now, maybe the Titans would have settled for less, but maybe they wouldn&#39;t.

    You can slam Bradway for not holding out for a better deal, but your line of reasoning is bizarre. [/b][/quote]
    Sorry Seymour but you are completely INCORRECT.

    You are applying the wrong rule to the wrong situation. The rule where the pick must be equal to or higher than a teams own pick doesn&#39;t apply here.

    McCareins was tendered at the medium level where the Titans were due a 1st rounder. The Titans waived their right to a 1st rounder (since nobody would pay that for McCareins) and negotiated with the Jets for their second rounder. The negotiation is the key element here. By negotiating the Titans essentially waived their rights to all rules regulating compensation amongst restricted free agents.

    Those rules aren&#39;t necessary in situations where teams are willing to negotiate with one another. They&#39;re in place to protect teams who don&#39;t want to negotiate.

    For example: Coles and Morton last season. Those were not negotiated trades where the Jets and Redskins happily agreed to exchange players for draft picks. In that situation the Redskins made offers to those playes which had the effect of "stealing" them away from the Jets who wanted to keep them but couldn&#39;t match the contract offers that the Redskins made. In those situations the team losing the players is due compensation and that compensation has to adhere to the rule that you mentioned. The rule where the pick must be equal or higher to the team&#39;s original draft position.

    It&#39;s very difficult to explain the differences but hopefully I was successful.

    The Jets have taken a beating in free agency over the past couple of years so its understandable way they would jump to finalize a deal instead of searching for ways to maximize the return on their investment.

  7. #27
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    Ok guys let&#39;s just step back and hope they start clawing. Personally I&#39;m rooting for Seymour.

  8. #28
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by PYPER+Mar 8 2004, 11:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (PYPER @ Mar 8 2004, 11:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -RichardSeymour@Mar 8 2004, 10:24 PM
    [b] [quote]Originally posted by -PYPER@Mar 8 2004, 10:21 PM
    [b] [quote]Originally posted by -Green Jets & Ham@Mar 8 2004, 10:03 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--Green Jets & Ham[/i]@Mar 8 2004, 07:56 PM
    [b] And why can&#39;t the Jets still trade down from 12 and aquire a 2? :blink: [/b][/quote]
    The Question still stands <_< [/b][/quote]
    The question wasn&#39;t answered because it has nothing to do with anything.

    What they do or don&#39;t do with their 1st rounder has no impact on the fact that they left picks on the table by not trading down prior to sending the Titans a second rounder.

    Bradway and company elected for the "SIMPLE" way rather than the way that would net them the greatest value. The bottom line is that they could have netted the player they wanted AND a pick or two.......But instead, they just got the player. [/b][/quote]
    Pyper, that line of reasoning is so wrong it&#39;s not even funny....

    The Jets didn&#39;t forfeit the #2 to the Titans (and even if they did NFL rules require it be equal to or higher than a teams "own" #2), they traded it. The Titans made the trade for the Jets #42 overall...... they might have NOT made it for the #55 or #64 overall....

    Now, maybe the Titans would have settled for less, but maybe they wouldn&#39;t.

    You can slam Bradway for not holding out for a better deal, but your line of reasoning is bizarre. [/b][/quote]
    Sorry Seymour but you are completely INCORRECT.

    You are applying the wrong rule to the wrong situation. The rule where the pick must be equal to or higher than a teams own pick doesn&#39;t apply here.

    McCareins was tendered at the medium level where the Titans were due a 1st rounder. The Titans waived their right to a 1st rounder (since nobody would pay that for McCareins) and negotiated with the Jets for their second rounder. The negotiation is the key element here. By negotiating the Titans essentially waived their rights to all rules regulating compensation amongst restricted free agents.

    Those rules aren&#39;t necessary in situations where teams are willing to negotiate with one another. They&#39;re in place to protect teams who don&#39;t want to negotiate.

    For example: Coles and Morton last season. Those were not negotiated trades where the Jets and Redskins happily agreed to exchange players for draft picks. In that situation the Redskins made offers to those playes which had the effect of "stealing" them away from the Jets who wanted to keep them but couldn&#39;t match the contract offers that the Redskins made. In those situations the team losing the players is due compensation and that compensation has to adhere to the rule that you mentioned. The rule where the pick must be equal or higher to the team&#39;s original draft position.

    It&#39;s very difficult to explain the differences but hopefully I was successful.

    The Jets have taken a beating in free agency over the past couple of years so its understandable way they would jump to finalize a deal instead of searching for ways to maximize the return on their investment. [/b][/quote]
    [quote][b]Sorry Seymour but you are completely INCORRECT.

    You are applying the wrong rule to the wrong situation. The rule where the pick must be equal to or higher than a teams own pick doesn&#39;t apply here.[/b][/quote]

    Pyper..... dude.... what&#39;s your reading comprehension level?

    [quote][b]The Jets [b]didn&#39;t forfeit [/b]the #2 to the Titans (and [b]even if they did [/b]NFL rules require it be equal to or higher than a teams "own" #2), [b]they traded it[/b]. The Titans made the [b]trade[/b] for the Jets #42 overall...... they might have NOT made it for the #55 or #64 overall....[/b][/quote]

    I know that rule doesn&#39;t apply here. I said that rule doesn&#39;t apply here, and you somehow didn&#39;t understand me. Then you went to a lot of trouble to explain to me something I already knew full well.

    Thanks.

    So we&#39;re back to the point that if the Titans want a 2nd rounder, they&#39;re gonna be POed if the Jets are all of a suddon offering #59 instead of #42.

  9. #29
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by ChadOwnsBrady[/i]@Mar 8 2004, 11:38 PM
    [b] Ok guys let&#39;s just step back and hope they start clawing. Personally I&#39;m rooting for Seymour. [/b][/quote]
    I didn&#39;t see this post until after my reply. High comedy.

  10. #30
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    Pyper, in your initial post you say

    [i]The Jets could&#39;ve traded down with a team like the Patriots in exchange for both of the Patriots 2nd rounders and then sent one of those 2nd rounders (most likely the higher one) to the Titans. [/i]

    That is what I believe GJ&H is getting at here. He asked, why can&#39;t we still trade down from the #12 for a second rounder.

    But you dismissed the question saying it has nothing to do with anything?

    I don&#39;t know about GJ&H, but I am still missing your original point here. What could the Jets have traded down to a team like the Patriots in order to get an extra second? Was it not the #12 overall?

  11. #31
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    :ph34r: Huh?? Man we just got a nice up and coming receiver..thats the deal.....sheeet...I&#39;m glad we got him and it took a second round pick...so what???

  12. #32
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    Can you fill me in here Pyper? What the heck am I missing?

  13. #33
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Lady Jet[/i]@Mar 9 2004, 12:13 AM
    [b] Pyper, in your initial post you say

    [i]The Jets could&#39;ve traded down with a team like the Patriots in exchange for both of the Patriots 2nd rounders and then sent one of those 2nd rounders (most likely the higher one) to the Titans. [/i]

    That is what I believe GJ&H is getting at here. He asked, why can&#39;t we still trade down from the #12 for a second rounder.

    But you dismissed the question saying it has nothing to do with anything?

    I don&#39;t know about GJ&H, but I am still missing your original point here. What could the Jets have traded down to a team like the Patriots in order to get an extra second? Was it not the #12 overall? [/b][/quote]
    Sure Lady Jet. I&#39;m not exactly sure what part you&#39;re not understanding so I guess I&#39;ll try to start from the beginning.

    Prior to acquiring McCareins the Jets had the 10th pick of the 2nd round (#42 overall).

    My whole point was simply that they could have tried to trade down prior to acquiring McCareins and acquired additional picks. Then they could have traded their new 2nd rounder for McCareins.

    It could have gone down any number of ways but here&#39;s an example involving the Patriots: (please don&#39;t get hung up on the specifics of the deal).

    The Jets could&#39;ve sent the Pats pick #42 and let&#39;s say their 3rd rounder to the Patriots for both of their 2nd rounders. Then the Jets turn around and send one of the 2nd rounders they got from the Pats to the Titans in exchange for McCareins.

    So instead of ending up with McCareins and no second rounder, the Jets would&#39;ve ended up with McCareins and no third rounder. The difference being that now you have a second rounder instead of a third rounder.
    _______________________________________________

    The reason I dismissed GJ&H was because he was talking about the Jets 1st rounder and not their 2nd rounder.

    Sure the Jets could trade down with their 1st rounder and acquire an additional 2nd rounder but that has nothing to do with them not maximizing their own return on their original 2nd rounder (#42).

    It&#39;s not necessarily an "A" OR "B" situation. It could&#39;ve been an "A" AND "B" situation.

    It&#39;s complicated....I guess. I hope you understand.

  14. #34
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    Give it a rest already, we traded our 2nd Rounder for Mccaerins (No other WR at #42 is certain too be as good as this kid).

    Bradway wanted to make the move before the draft to make certain they had all options open during the draft. Who the hell is going to start trading down 2nd round picks in March? You&#39;re a true idiot.

  15. #35
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by RichardSeymour+Mar 8 2004, 11:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (RichardSeymour @ Mar 8 2004, 11:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ChadOwnsBrady[/i]@Mar 8 2004, 11:38 PM
    [b] Ok guys let&#39;s just step back and hope they start clawing. Personally I&#39;m rooting for Seymour. [/b][/quote]
    I didn&#39;t see this post until after my reply. High comedy. [/b][/quote]
    Yeah that was funny....Except for the part about rooting for you. :D

    Back to the other conversation:

    I see the misunderstanding now.

    [b]You said: The Jets didn&#39;t forfeit the #2 to the Titans (and even if they did NFL rules require it be equal to or higher than a teams "own" #2), they traded it.[/b]

    You questioned my reading level and I&#39;ll let that slide :D but I&#39;m curious what your point was with this sentence. Where did you get the impression that I thought the Jets "forfeited" the #2 to the Titans. I never said or implied anything of the sort. I guess I just misundestood your reasoning for writing that because it comes straight out of the leftfield bleachers.


    [b]The Titans made the trade for the Jets #42 overall...... they might have NOT made it for the #55 or #64 overall....[/b]

    I completely agree. This is the risk involved with the idea but I believe that if the situation was handled properly from the beginning it would&#39;ve worked out.

    For example: If the Jets had informed the Titans during their first set of discussions that they had a few offers on the table involving a trade down with their 2nd rounder (pick #42), they could have told Tennessee that they would be acquiring pick#56 and then negotiated with them to see if they would let McCareins go for #56. If Tennessee says they would make a deal for #56, the Jets can now start calling every team from pick #43 to pick #56 until they find an acceptable trading partner.

    Is it a lot of work and alot of BS.....Sure. But is it potentially worth it? Absolutely.

    Is it a big deal that they didn&#39;t do it. No way.

    More likely, this nonsense about nothing is a combination of playing too much Madden and being bored cause its the damn offseason and my damn team hasn&#39;t done diddly squat (since winning the SUPER BOWL for the 2nd time in three years - I&#39;ve always got to throw that in there) except let talented players sign elsewhere. Plus...starting these debates is always fun......It&#39;s great getting Jets fans panties all in a bunch.

    :D

  16. #36
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by PYPER[/i]@Mar 8 2004, 08:20 PM
    [b] McCareins was a restricted free agent who the Titans tendered at the &#036;1.3M level, meaning they would be compensated with a first rounder if another team signed him.

    The Jets weren&#39;t interested in giving up a first rounder so they negotiated and the Titans ultimately let them have him for their 2nd rounder.

    I think the Jets dropped the ball once again. This front office has no creativity.

    Wouldn&#39;t it have made more sense for the Jets to shop their second rounder around a little bit before agreeing to this deal. The Jets could&#39;ve traded down with a team like the Patriots in exchange for both of the Patriots 2nd rounders and then sent one of those 2nd rounders (most likely the higher one) to the Titans.

    With a little creativity, the Jets could&#39;ve had McCareins and a 2nd round pick.

    Even if they didn&#39;t want to deal with the Patriots they could have traded down with someone else. Maybe they wouldn&#39;t have ended up with two second rounders but at worst, they&#39;d net themselves an extra 3rd or 4th rounder. Or maybe they could have traded down for 2nd rounder in next year&#39;s draft. The possibilities are endless.

    It just seems to me that the Jets missed a golden opportunity. The 12th pick of the second round is a relatively high slot.


    I think GM&#39;s and coaches (especially offensive coordinators) need to start playing some Madden. It&#39;s not just some kids video game. It&#39;s an NFL simulation and potentially a great tool for them to use to enhance their "job" skills.

    No Madden player would ever have missed the opportunity that the Jets front office just did. [/b][/quote]
    I&#39;m sorry but comparing NFL real life to Madden is rediculous..

  17. #37
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by pope[/i]@Mar 9 2004, 01:52 AM
    [b] You&#39;re a true idiot. [/b][/quote]
    HAAAAA&#33;&#33;&#33;

    I fooled you&#33;&#33;&#33;

    I&#39;m actually a false idiot.

    :D :D :D :D :D

  18. #38
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by wickedtwisted+Mar 9 2004, 02:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (wickedtwisted @ Mar 9 2004, 02:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--PYPER[/i]@Mar 8 2004, 08:20 PM
    [b]

    I think GM&#39;s and coaches (especially offensive coordinators) need to start playing some Madden. It&#39;s not just some kids video game. It&#39;s an NFL simulation and potentially a great tool for them to use to enhance their "job" skills.

    No Madden player would ever have missed the opportunity that the Jets front office just did. [/b][/quote]
    I&#39;m sorry but comparing NFL real life to Madden is rediculous.. [/b][/quote]
    No one compared Madden to the real NFL.

    I simply stated that Madden is a good "TOOL" for GM&#39;s and coaches to use. Especially offensive coordinators.

    Many offensive coordinators are really good at designing offenses but really bad at the skill of play calling. Play calling is a skill and I believe that a simulation game like Madden could be used by coaches looking to enhance their play calling skills.

    Is that really so far fethched to you? Do you realize that before launching into space, astronauts practice on expensive "video games"

    Same concept here.

  19. #39
    wickedtwisted
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    While I agree Madden is by far the most entertaining game I have played, (Borderline addictive with Rollercoaster Tycoon 2) You cant tell me that it is actually representing real life scenarios. It is close but saying that GMs should take tips from Madden is just scary to me.

    I&#39;m not trying to pick apart your words but man think about it...

  20. #40
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by wickedtwisted[/i]@Mar 9 2004, 02:20 AM
    [b] While I agree Madden is by far the most entertaining game I have played, (Borderline addictive with Rollercoaster Tycoon 2) You cant tell me that it is actually representing real life scenarios. It is close but saying that GMs should take tips from Madden is just scary to me.

    I&#39;m not trying to pick apart your words but man think about it... [/b][/quote]
    I see a greater value in how it could help offensive coordinators improve their play calling skills.

    For a GM, maybe not so much but perhaps it could influence them to think a little outside the box. Like anything, it all depends exactly how you use it.

    I can give two kids a basketball and let them practice in the gym for two hours but that doesn&#39;t mean they&#39;ll both get the same benefits out of that experience. If one of the kids knows how to practice, he&#39;ll get better. If the other doesn&#39;t, he won&#39;t.

    So in other words......It&#39;s not simply using Madden but rather how you use it.

    );p

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