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Thread: The wheels are coming off and the kitty is bare

  1. #1
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    Well looks like this is going to be another "Bad Day" in Rumsfeld lingo. Here's a tasty little morsel from the Telegraph of London.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    US commander will not take blame for unrest
    By David Rennie in Washington
    (Filed: 09/04/2004)


    America's top commander in Iraq has warned Washington that he will not be "the fall guy" if violence in the country worsens, it emerged yesterday, as word leaked out that US generals are "outraged" by their lack of soldiers.

    America's generals consider current troop strengths of 130,000 in Iraq inadequate, reported the columnist Robert Novak, a doyen of the old-school Right in Washington.


    Gen John Abizaid, commander of Central Command, told his political masters earlier this week that he would ask for reinforcements if requested by the generals under him. His words overrode months of public assurances from the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, and other civilian chiefs that more troops are not necessary.

    As violence flared across the Sunni triangle and the Shia-dominated south of Iraq on Wednesday, Mr Rumsfeld indicated that troop numbers would be bolstered at least temporarily, by leaving in place units that had been earmarked to return home as part of troop rotation, while still sending replacements.

    But officers who will not speak out in public let it be known that major reinforcements might be impossible to find. US forces are so overstretched in Iraq and Afghanistan that "there are simply no large units available and suitable for assignment", Novak wrote in his column in The Washington Post.


    The leaks have revived memories of the bitter debate that raged in Washington in the run-up to the Iraq war, as uniformed chiefs clashed with Mr Rumsfeld and his aides, who predicted that US forces would be welcomed as "liberators", allowing troop numbers to be reduced rapidly.

    Relations between the uniformed military and the Pentagon's civilian chiefs are currently worse than at any time in living memory, Novak wrote, citing a former high-ranking national security official who served in previous Republican administrations.

    Many still in uniform bitterly recall the public dressing-down earned by the then army chief of staff, Gen Eric Shinseki, when he told Congress a month before the invasion, in February 2003, that "several hundred thousand troops" might be needed to occupy Iraq.

    That estimate was slapped down as "wildly off the mark" by the deputy defence secretary, Paul Wolfowitz. Thomas White, the army secretary and a former general himself, publicly backed Gen Shinseki. Mr White was sacked shortly afterwards by Mr Rumsfeld.

    A new account of the war, In the Company of Soldiers, reveals that in May 2003 Pentagon planners "predicted that US troop levels would be down to 30,000 by late summer [of 2003]".

    Underlining the mood of crisis, private security contractors in Iraq - many of them US and British military veterans - have abruptly dropped professional rivalries and begun sharing information and even resources, creating what US officials called the largest private army in the world.

    Such co-operation was born out of unhappy necessity, a source at one of the leading security companies said, criticising the Pentagon and occupation officials for failing to share intelligence on threats with guards they had hired to protect everything from power stations to the chief US administrator, Paul Bremer.

    Information sharing is being made easier by the close ties in the special forces community, where many British, US and other western military commandos have known each other for years.

    "The unfortunate thing is it had to happen this way," said the industry source. "This informal communication is necessitated by lack of communications and intelligence sharing between the Pentagon, Coalition Provisional Authority and private security."

    A South African working for a British security firm, Hart Group, was killed on Tuesday in the town of Kut, after coalition forces from Ukraine failed to respond to repeated pleas for help from a small group of besieged guards.

    Asked if private security firms were working together because they trusted each other more than some coalition militaries, the industry source declined to comment, saying: "Let's not go there."

    [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/09/wirq109.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/09/ixnewstop.html]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../ixnewstop.html[/url]

  2. #2
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    Novak is a reliable right-wing apologist. It's very surprising that this would come from him.

  3. #3
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    From this point forward, nothing this POS posts, no matter how valid, football or otherwise, deserves any kind of reply after the hateful, insensitive crap he posted yesterday. May he fade into obscurity.

    It's a shame that I even have to be a fan of the same team as this guy.

  4. #4
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by JetFanTransplant[/i]@Apr 9 2004, 08:16 AM
    [b] after the hateful, insensitive crap....... [/b][/quote]
    Hateful ? Insensitive ? Now you're sounding like a Liberal JFT !

  5. #5
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by WestCoastMole+Apr 9 2004, 08:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (WestCoastMole @ Apr 9 2004, 08:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--JetFanTransplant[/i]@Apr 9 2004, 08:16 AM
    [b] after the hateful, insensitive crap....... [/b][/quote]
    Hateful ? Insensitive ? Now you&#39;re sounding like a Liberal JFT &#33; [/b][/quote]
    How about patently incorrect?

    Where are those hundreds of bodies your post spoke about?

  6. #6
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Piper+Apr 9 2004, 10:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Piper @ Apr 9 2004, 10:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -WestCoastMole@Apr 9 2004, 08:31 AM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--JetFanTransplant[/i]@Apr 9 2004, 08:16 AM
    [b] after the hateful, insensitive crap....... [/b][/quote]
    Hateful ? Insensitive ? Now you&#39;re sounding like a Liberal JFT &#33; [/b][/quote]
    How about patently incorrect?

    Where are those hundreds of bodies your post spoke about? [/b][/quote]
    Body counts by the protagonists in any battle are always inaccurate I just showed you the numbers from the high side if for no other reason to show you how ridculous the numbers are coming out of the "Liberal Media". It&#39;s really an odd curiosity how the flag waving conservatives are always anxious to lap up what their Liberal Brethern feed them then denounce them.

    As to what is happening in Falluja it has been reported by a number of sources have reported that US Forces have barely made it to the center of the city after 5 days of fighting &#33; It is clear the Iraqis are treating the US Forces the same way the Poles hammered the Nazis when they entered the Warsaw Ghettos in 1937.

    My point still stands US Forces are getting their a&#036;&#036;es whipped &#33;

    Check it out [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3613299.stm]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3613299.stm[/url]

  7. #7
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by WestCoastMole+Apr 9 2004, 10:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (WestCoastMole @ Apr 9 2004, 10:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -Piper@Apr 9 2004, 10:09 AM
    [b] [quote]Originally posted by -WestCoastMole@Apr 9 2004, 08:31 AM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--JetFanTransplant[/i]@Apr 9 2004, 08:16 AM
    [b] after the hateful, insensitive crap....... [/b][/quote]
    Hateful ? Insensitive ? Now you&#39;re sounding like a Liberal JFT &#33; [/b][/quote]
    How about patently incorrect?

    Where are those hundreds of bodies your post spoke about? [/b][/quote]
    Body counts by the protagonists in any battle are always inaccurate I just showed you the numbers from the high side if for no other reason to show you how ridculous the numbers are coming out of the "Liberal Media". It&#39;s really an odd curiosity how the flag waving conservatives are always anxious to lap up what their Liberal Brethern feed them then denounce them.

    As to what is happening in Falluja it has been reported by a number of sources have reported that US Forces have barely made it to the center of the city after 5 days of fighting &#33; It is clear the Iraqis are treating the US Forces the same way the Poles hammered the Nazis when they entered the Warsaw Ghettos in 1937.

    My point still stands US Forces are getting their a&#036;&#036;es whipped &#33;

    Check it out [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3613299.stm]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3613299.stm[/url] [/b][/quote]
    And you are patently incorrect.(not on the high side, completely incorrect, uncorroborated, unproven, not verified.....wrong) 130 is not in the same neighborhood as 20.


    "A number or sources", oooohhh that&#39;s specific and dependable.

    Empty barrels my man, empty barrels

  8. #8
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    Piper since we are talking bout yesterday&#39;s convo i would just like to point out that you said that because the resistance was numbered in thousands of active participants instead of millions, it was a sign that most Iraqis were pleased with our prescence (paraphrasing)

    unfortunately just cause every man, woman and child isn&#39;t holed up with a gun and an RPG it doesn&#39;t mean they love us -

    face the facts, Hezbollah has moved in and the US is facing TWO seperate armed revolts, one of sunni&#39;s, one of shi-ites - the capital still has less than 12 hours of power on average a day - basically there are no jobs, no economy, no foreign investment - the religious radicals have run amok with women having to wear those full veils for the first time in over 40 years, there are kidnappings (not just high profile) and robberies - basically its anarchy over there and the people of Iraq want us out.

    we took what little gov&#39;t Saddam had going and replaced it with NOTHING. Its a year to the day since we over threw Saddam... what exactly is better in Iraq?

  9. #9
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Piper+Apr 9 2004, 10:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Piper @ Apr 9 2004, 10:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -WestCoastMole@Apr 9 2004, 10:39 AM
    [b] [quote]Originally posted by -Piper@Apr 9 2004, 10:09 AM
    [b] [quote]Originally posted by -WestCoastMole@Apr 9 2004, 08:31 AM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--JetFanTransplant[/i]@Apr 9 2004, 08:16 AM
    [b] after the hateful, insensitive crap....... [/b][/quote]
    Hateful ? Insensitive ? Now you&#39;re sounding like a Liberal JFT &#33; [/b][/quote]
    How about patently incorrect?

    Where are those hundreds of bodies your post spoke about? [/b][/quote]
    Body counts by the protagonists in any battle are always inaccurate I just showed you the numbers from the high side if for no other reason to show you how ridculous the numbers are coming out of the "Liberal Media". It&#39;s really an odd curiosity how the flag waving conservatives are always anxious to lap up what their Liberal Brethern feed them then denounce them.

    As to what is happening in Falluja it has been reported by a number of sources have reported that US Forces have barely made it to the center of the city after 5 days of fighting &#33; It is clear the Iraqis are treating the US Forces the same way the Poles hammered the Nazis when they entered the Warsaw Ghettos in 1937.

    My point still stands US Forces are getting their a&#036;&#036;es whipped &#33;

    Check it out [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3613299.stm]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3613299.stm[/url] [/b][/quote]
    And you are patently incorrect.(not on the high side, completely incorrect, uncorroborated, unproven, not verified.....wrong) 130 is not in the same neighborhood as 20.


    "A number or sources", oooohhh that&#39;s specific and dependable.

    Empty barrels my man, empty barrels [/b][/quote]
    Here ya go.

    [b]US: Fierce Falluja fighting recalls Vietnam[/b]


    Friday 09 April 2004, 7:38 Makka Time, 4:38 GMT


    Occupation forces are only advancing slowly in Falluja


    Ten Iraqi resistance fighters were reported killed on Thursday as US marines - their own casualties rising - met ferocious resistance in the besieged western Iraqi town of Falluja several days into their offensive.


    The tough fight put up by insurgents in Falluja, west of Baghdad, prompted the marine commander to make comparisons with the Vietnam War.

    As the day drew to a close, sniper fire and mortars were being fired around the main marine compound in the industrial area on the eastern edge of town, where rocket fire and mortars fell short all day.

    "Marines southwest of Falluja were attacked by an unknown number of enemy forces in buildings using machine guns, small arms, hand grenades and RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades)," said a military statement.

    "The marines called in reinforcements and attacked the enemy positions, destroying a truck with a mounted machine gun and the building that the attackers were firing from. Ten enemy combatants were confirmed killed."

    The statement also said about 30 insurgents had been killed in the Al-Anbar province, home to Fallujah, but mostly in clashes in other marine operations in nearby Ramadi. Neither claim could be verified.

    Later in the day the US military said it had suffered six more combat deaths in Iraq, bringing to 449 the number of soldiers killed in combat since the invasion.

    Forty US troops have been killed across Iraq in the past week




    In a statement, it said five soldiers had been killed in action on Wednesday and Thursday, and added that another soldier had died after being wounded in a bomb attack on 4 April in the northern city of Mosul.

    Forty US troops have been killed across Iraq in the past week.

    [b]Advance slowed[/b]

    Throughout the day US occupation forces inched forward block-by-block taking sniper fire and hit-and-run attacks with mortars and RPGs. [i]A US medic said the resistance was more intense than in last spring&#39;s invasion. [/i]

    Mortars and small-arms fire were launched by small groups of insurgents who appeared in alleyways or on rooftops, only to melt away.

    The thud of mortar rounds echoed around the town and plumes of smoke dotted the landscape. Machine-gun fire rattled through the streets as F-16 warplanes buzzed overhead.

    After more than three days of ferocious fighting, the marines had managed to move just two kilometres (a little over a mile) through the industrial zone, which they had thought was largely abandoned.

    They stopped their advance in the afternoon to wait for reinforcements from another battalion.

    The flames of exploding rockets lit the sky as the marines came under repeated mortar and RPG fire from factories, homes and mosques.

    "MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain) is the most intense kind of fighting," said Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne, a battalion commander.

    "And this is like Hue City in Vietnam," he said, referring to the former imperial capital where in 1968 US troops faced the most ferocious street fighting of the communists&#39; decisive Tet offensive.

    Marines, who took part in defeating Saddam&#39;s armed forces a year ago, said the resistance they were now facing was tougher than anything thrown at them by the old regime&#39;s once vaunted Republican Guards.

    Sergeant James Ramsel, of the battalion&#39;s Alpha Company, said there had been no let-up in the resistance. "It&#39;s been going on all night; it&#39;s still going on."

    Hospital sources cited by Al-Jazeera said a total of 105 Iraqis had been killed in Falluja since Tuesday evening.

    The ferocity of the fighting stopped some corpses from being cleared from the streets.

    Flies buzzed over the body of a middle-aged man with a mustache, shot in the neck by marines after he fired a RPG at them across the industrial wasteland of garages, factories and metal shops.

    US forces pinned down


    Fighters celebrate in front of a
    burning US convoy near Falluja

    [b]Captain Chris Chown, a marine battalion air officer, conceded that the insurgents were proving not only determined but also adept at using guerrilla attacks to counter the US advantage in equipment and numbers. [/b]

    "One guy can basically hold down a whole squad. He shoots from one window and pops in another. They are fierce and very determined but they can&#39;t shoot straight. They are basically spraying and praying."

    However, Chown expressed concern the outgunned Iraqis could still end up winning the battle of public opinion if the fighting continued.

    "I hope one day we don&#39;t get so jaded we just roll down the streets in armoured vehicles shooting at whatever moves," she said.

    "If that happens we need to take a step back and look at the humanity of the place or we&#39;ve just lost our mission."

    "We are at a crossroads in Falluja... You get to a critical juncture where one small event is going to tip things for us or against us."

  10. #10
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by WestCoastMole[/i]@Apr 9 2004, 11:09 AM
    [b] Here ya go.

    [/b][/quote]
    Let&#39;s see, a patchwork collection of reports which buoy your position.

    Shocking.[sarcasm]

    Something tells me that one could search an equal number of optimistic reports.

  11. #11
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by JetFanTransplant[/i]@Apr 9 2004, 08:16 AM
    [b] From this point forward, nothing this POS posts, no matter how valid, football or otherwise, deserves any kind of reply after the hateful, insensitive crap he posted yesterday. May he fade into obscurity.

    It&#39;s a shame that I even have to be a fan of the same team as this guy. [/b][/quote]
    I wouldn&#39;t really consider him a Jets Fan. I checked his posts over the last year and he doesn&#39;t have one football related post. So although you are a Jets fan I would say he probably doesn&#39;t know that much about sports in general.

    Ironic though because the kid who is picked last in kickball usually likes to talk about sports a lot.

  12. #12
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    Hey, did&#39;ya hear -- George W. told the New York Times that he is not running for re-election but instead will coronate Kerry president?

    Also, Bigfoot is marrying the Loch Ness Monster.

  13. #13
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Spirit of Weeb[/i]@Apr 9 2004, 02:26 PM
    [b] Hey, did&#39;ya hear -- George W. told the New York Times that he is not running for re-election but instead will coronate Kerry president?

    Also, Bigfoot is marrying the Loch Ness Monster. [/b][/quote]
    You must have read that in the[i] Washington Times[/i]. Or heard in on Fox news, maybe.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by JetFanTransplant[/i]@Apr 9 2004, 08:16 AM
    [b] From this point forward, nothing this POS posts, no matter how valid, football or otherwise, deserves any kind of reply after the hateful, insensitive crap he posted yesterday. May he fade into obscurity.

    It&#39;s a shame that I even have to be a fan of the same team as this guy. [/b][/quote]
    [img]http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38137000/jpg/_38137295_lindh150ap.jpg[/img]

  15. #15
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    From this weeks economist.




    [b]The challenge in Iraq [/b]
    It was one of the worst weeks so far. But it would still be wrong to write Iraq off.

    PLAINLY, it is bad. For the first time in more than a year of occupation, the Americans find themselves in armed conflict with a well-organised militia of Shias, the 60% or so of Iraqis who were repressed especially brutally by Saddam Hussein and had hitherto seemed willing if not entirely happy to co-operate with his removers. If this fight continues or spreads, the Americans and their allies will indeed, as all the pundits say, be facing an insurgency on two fronts. Having failed to subdue the minority Sunnis, some of whom have spent many months in open rebellion in the so-called “Sunni Triangle” west of the capital, the occupiers would also have to contend with a Shia uprising in Baghdad and in the south (see article). This is a grim prospect. But does it amount, as Senator Edward Kennedy says, to “George Bush&#39;s Vietnam”? And is Iraq on the brink of a “civil war”? Not yet, on both scores.


    [b]Brute force versus the people&#39;s will[/b]

    The United States spent a decade in Vietnam and lost some 50,000 soldiers. The conquest and occupation of Iraq have so far claimed just over 600 Americans. Although this was a bloody spell—eight American soldiers were killed in the fight at the start of the week against Muqtada al-Sadr&#39;s Shia militia, then a dozen more in fighting with Sunnis—the rate at which Americans have been dying has nevertheless dropped since November. Nor is it just the discrepancy in the numbers that makes the Vietnam analogy misleading. Vietnam has come to symbolise the futility of expecting brute force to prop up a foreign regime that is not supported by its own people. Just conceivably, this could still happen in Iraq if the Americans are foolish enough to create an Iraqi government so unpopular that it can enforce its will only at the point of an American gun. But that is neither what the Americans plan to do, nor—probably—what they will be forced to do.

    Over the past year, Paul Bremer, Iraq&#39;s American administrator, has changed his plans so many times that Iraqis themselves, let alone spectators from afar, can be forgiven for being confused about what the Americans are currently proposing. This lack of clarity is one of the many failures of the occupation so far. However, the point to remember is that under the present plan Iraq is heading in the reasonably near future for a series of elections. The first, to elect a National Assembly, must take place no later than the end of January 2005. This body is supposed to write a constitution and submit it to a referendum no later than mid-October of that year. By mid-December, a government is to be elected under the new constitution.

    Once the Iraqis have elected their own government, the danger of replaying Vietnam in the sands of Iraq should recede. Even if such a government were later to prove deadlocked or unstable, its emergence would permit an honourable enough American exit. That is to say, a President Bush or Kerry could in conscience declare at such a point that America had given Iraq its democratic opportunity and summon the troops back home. So in practical terms, the question of whether the Americans can “succeed” in Iraq boils down to this. Is America willing and able to hold the ring for the year and a half or so until that election takes place?

    The honest answer is that success is not certain. It is all too easy after this nerve-jangling week to imagine a sequence of events in which the occupiers become so unpopular that the coalition forces are compelled to quit early, leaving Iraqis to sort or fight things out for themselves. Even if matters do not reach that pass, the violence might swell to a level that prevents the holding of a fair election on the Americans&#39; timetable. The uncertainty, however, cuts both ways; if success is not certain, failure is not guaranteed either. Many a country awash in violence has nonetheless managed the transition to democracy. South Africa, which is celebrating ten years of it this week, was in the early 1990s embroiled in a vicious three-cornered struggle between whites, Zulus and Xhosas. And if you look carefully at Iraq, there are still reasons for optimism.

    One is that Iraq is not yet gripped by anything that can be properly described as a civil war. It may be scant comfort for the Americans, but it is their troops rather than fellow Iraqis who have become the target of choice for the country&#39;s insurgents. This is something of a surprise. Before last year&#39;s invasion, the fear of many outsiders was that an Iraq freed from Saddam&#39;s iron fist would splinter three ways as Kurds, Sunnis and Shias battled each other for independence (in the case of the Kurds) or supremacy (in the case of the Sunnis and Shias). For the time being, however, Iraqis have stubbornly resisted the expected trifurcation. Not even the terrible bombings during the Ashoura festival last month, which killed some 200 Shias, succeeded in provoking the anti-Sunni backlash the perpetrators were presumably hoping for.



    [b]The spiritual leader and the upstart[/b]
    Calculation rather than docility explains this forbearance. Many Iraqis appear to believe that a peaceful transition to democracy serves their own interests. Despite loose talk of Iraq falling into anarchy, polls suggest that most Iraqis think that their lot has improved since the fall of the dictator, and will continue to improve. This expectation of better times to come is a precious asset that Mr Bremer must not squander as the transition unfolds. Another is the belief of the Shias, guided by their spiritual leader Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, that as the majority they have much to gain from democracy. Until this month, Mr Bremer had made a great point of keeping Mr Sistani reasonably happy: it was at the ayatollah&#39;s behest that America dropped its plan to use caucuses to select a constitution-writing body and proposed a direct election instead.

    Now the challenge for Mr Bremer is to find a way to ensure that his broad alliance with the Shias survives this week&#39;s clashes with the militia commanded by Mr Sadr. Having missed earlier opportunities either to co-opt this firebrand or to smack him down, the Americans have pronounced him an “outlaw” to be arrested. Perhaps this was necessary for the coalition to save face in the teeth of Mr Sadr&#39;s provocation and incitement, but it still entails taking a risk. Though the young Mr Sadr is a junior cleric compared with the revered Mr Sistani, the latter has no divisions whereas the former commands a disciplined militia that has flexed its muscles from Baghdad to Basra. And though in private Mr Sistani doubtless considers Mr Sadr a reckless upstart, not even Mr Sistani will take America&#39;s side if Mr Bremer&#39;s troops kill too many Shias when they take the upstart on. Like many a proconsul before him, Mr Bremer faces the delicate task, more political art than political science, of showing just enough toughness to command respect, while refraining from actions that turn more hearts and minds against him.

    Part of the same calculation is whether to let the latest violence derail the plan to hand over power before the end of June to an interim Iraqi administration that is likely to emerge from the existing American-appointed Governing Council. On the evidence so far, Mr Bush&#39;s declared intention to stick to the deadline is right. America has chopped and changed its plans often enough. To do so again simply because of a new spurt of violence would look indecisive and weak, even though this vaunted transfer of power will be a pretty notional affair. The occupying authority intends to dissolve itself, and the American presence will shrink to an embassy. But it will be an embassy like no other, pretending to defer to Iraq&#39;s interim government while issuing orders to America&#39;s occupying army and therefore still calling most of the shots.

    It is this period—after the birth of an interim government and before proper elections—that is likely to be the decisive one for Iraq. Though largely a creature of the Americans, the interim government will include representatives of most of the country&#39;s sects and political movements. It has the potential to earn respect, prepare the ground for elections and make the occupation feel less like an occupation. Only if it fails, and has to depend increasingly on American firepower to impose its authority, will Iraq really begin to resemble Vietnam.

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    When I heard about "rape rooms" and "torture chambers", I conjured up images of innocent Iraqi people, who only wanted peace and harmony, and a country in which they could thrive and work freely.

    Now I see an entirely different image. I see Shi&#39;ite babboons who deserved it. Let&#39;s face it, if the shoe was on the other foot, they would be doing the same thing to the Sunni&#39;s.

    I give up. Prop up another Shah, and let&#39;s get the oil pipeline a chug a luggin&#39;.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jet Moses[/i]@Apr 10 2004, 11:05 AM
    [b] When I heard about "rape rooms" and "torture chambers", I conjured up images of innocent Iraqi people, who only wanted peace and harmony, and a country in which they could thrive and work freely.

    Now I see an entirely different image. I see Shi&#39;ite babboons who deserved it. Let&#39;s face it, if the shoe was on the other foot, they would be doing the same thing to the Sunni&#39;s.

    I give up. Prop up another Shah, and let&#39;s get the oil pipeline a chug a luggin&#39;. [/b][/quote]
    Agreed..spill no more American blood over this. F this shizzle. let the Shia&#39;s and the Sunnis fight it out....ultimately they will get themsleves f&#39;ed up then come crying to us. Pump that oil&#33;

    LL

  18. #18
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by latinlawyer+Apr 10 2004, 12:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (latinlawyer @ Apr 10 2004, 12:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jet Moses[/i]@Apr 10 2004, 11:05 AM
    [b] When I heard about "rape rooms" and "torture chambers", I conjured up images of innocent Iraqi people, who only wanted peace and harmony, and a country in which they could thrive and work freely.

    Now I see an entirely different image. I see Shi&#39;ite babboons who deserved it. Let&#39;s face it, if the shoe was on the other foot, they would be doing the same thing to the Sunni&#39;s.

    I give up. Prop up another Shah, and let&#39;s get the oil pipeline a chug a luggin&#39;. [/b][/quote]
    Agreed..spill no more American blood over this. F this shizzle. let the Shia&#39;s and the Sunnis fight it out....ultimately they will get themsleves f&#39;ed up then come crying to us. Pump that oil&#33;

    LL [/b][/quote]
    For real, man. They&#39;re friggin&#39; maniacs.

    [url=http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/10/1070732223742.html]http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/...0732223742.html[/url]

    [img]http://www.keysan.com/lagasse/zclo4324.jpg[/img]

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