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Thread: Hate to say it.....

  1. #1
    I can fully understand the synical approach Iraqi's have towards us right now. After pulling out just short of caprturing Saddam in GW1 allowing the massacre of Shi'ites, and having Clinton lobbing missiles about 3 times a week for his entire term, the Iraqi's have likely had enough of us. And that is fine with me.

    Quite simply put, these people can't be helped. they don't want our help and even as we do they will eventually put some militant tyrant equally as bad as Saddam or worse. Islam aqnd democracy just will never work. For the mean time we should just prop up our oil lines and get the hell out of there. They need a dictator, they need someone to bash their heads in when they speak, because it just seems like they don't want to have it any other way. The whole middle east is nothing but a hotbed of uneducated militants ho ant nothing more than to claim Jihad on anything they see. If a camel gets out of line there, someone will use it as a reason for jihad.

    We import most of our oil from venezuela anyway, so lets just keep it that way and move on. Bush should just go on national TV and claim these people as a lost cause that cannot and will not be helped. let them fight it out amongst each other.

  2. #2
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    when they hand over power to ...[i]whomever[/i], just garrison US forces in tight compounds and let all parties know that no crap vs. said troops will be tolerated. You cna't totally cut and run, but it's obvious that trying to get these animals to act like people is a waste of time.

  3. #3
    Please be patient.

  4. #4
    [quote][i]Originally posted by AlbanyJet[/i]@Apr 10 2004, 07:07 PM
    [b] Please be patient. [/b][/quote]
    Patient for wht?? Who in that god forsaken land is going to lead them peacefully? And if there is someone who would, how long before those mongrols kill him or overthrow his leadership. These people want a tyrant as their leader. Get out and let them throw stones at each other.

  5. #5
    well it's time to sell the Jeep GC SUV.... and buy a Honda CRV 23Mpg

  6. #6
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Boozer76+Apr 10 2004, 07:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Boozer76 @ Apr 10 2004, 07:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--AlbanyJet[/i]@Apr 10 2004, 07:07 PM
    [b] Please be patient. [/b][/quote]
    Patient for wht?? Who in that god forsaken land is going to lead them peacefully? And if there is someone who would, how long before those mongrols kill him or overthrow his leadership. These people want a tyrant as their leader. Get out and let them throw stones at each other. [/b][/quote]
    We&#39;re damned if we do, damned if we don&#39;t. For years we were blamed for propping up Sadaam, because he was a deterent to the spread of Islamic revelution, particularly of the Ayatolla Kokamamie persuasion. Saddam (I still can&#39;t spell that f**kers name) gets cute and invades Kuwait, goes totally bonkers and now we remove him-

    Now what?

    It&#39;s a mess. Look, we need the friggin&#39; oil. But let&#39;s stop acting like we can get it, and still be Mr. Nice Guy.

    Unless the American people can boycott oil, and not drive (yeah, like that&#39;s gonna happen) we might as well accept that this is the way it&#39;s gotta be: Dictators who rule with an Iron fist to maintain a semblance of stability, so we can buy the oil that keeps our economy humming.

    I mean, I hate the Saudi Royal family with a passion, and yeah, the Bush family is in bed with them, but you know, what&#39;s the alternative? It is what it is.

    And not buying oil from them any more is not a solution, neither, &#39;cos they still have plenty of customers and they will still be able to finance terrorist organizations, who are going to keep attacking our interests and killing our people both here and abroad, whether we have a dubious relationship with the Shah of the week or not.

    As for Israel, get your heads out of your ass. It&#39;s a helluva lot cheaper to finance Mossad, than the cost of not maintaining them.

  7. #7
    told ya so <_<

  8. #8
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    Learning from Sadr
    Listen to the Iraqis.

    By Michael Rubin

    As violence provoked by Muqtada al-Sadr&#39;s fringe Jaysh al-Mahdi militia enters its third day, Washington remains in a frenzy of misplaced panic. Senator Edward Kennedy (D., Mass.), in remarks rebroadcast throughout the Arab world on the al-Jazeera satellite television, declared "Iraq is George Bush&#39;s Vietnam and this country needs a new president." Senators Richard Lugar (R., Ind.) and Joseph Biden (D., Del.) raised the spectre of civil war in separate April 6 interviews. Speaking on the floor of the U.S. Senate on April 7, Robert Byrd (D., W.Va.) went further, calling on the United States to pull out of Iraq.



    Allies and adversaries alike interpret such statements as weakness. For Arab liberals, they raise the spectre of American abandonment, an obsession brought on by our failure to support Iraqi freedom in 1991. For militant Islamists and potential Jihadist recruits, the senators&#39; statements reinforce the notion that Americans will reward violence, just as did the Spanish electorate in the wake of the March 11 train bombings. While headlines may scream doom and gloom, more telling is the reaction of the Iraqi street. Muqtada al-Sadr&#39;s uprising and the fighting in Fallujah and Ramadi have put Iraq to the test. And Iraqis have passed with flying colors.

    Take the news out of Najaf where Governing Council member Sayyid Muhammad Bahr al-Ulum, himself a Shia cleric, has said that Muqtada al-Sadr refuses to speak with representatives of Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani&#39;s religious establishment: Muqtada&#39;s petulant behavior counters any suggestion that he and Iraq&#39;s religious establishment will unite in a common front. Indeed, on April 7, Sistani&#39;s office issued a statement calling for calm, pointedly refusing to endorse Muqtada. News from other cities is also positive. In Nasriyyah, a predominantly Shia town famous as the site of the rescue of PFC Jessica Lynch, leading local Shia cleric, Wael al-Rukadi, explained, "Triggering the violent incidents were people from the outside, to be exact, from Fallujah and the Western part of the country... A withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq at this time would lead to an all-out civil war."

    Muqtada al-Sadr is a desperate man. The youngest son of Grand Ayatollah Muhammad al-Sadr, Muqtada was never able to acquire the religious legitimacy of his father or brothers, murdered by Saddam Hussein in 1999. Nevertheless, Muqtada has remained fiercely ambitious and has sought to cash in on his family name. On October 10, 2003, he declared himself president of a parallel government, only to find that Iraqis wanted nothing to do with him. Muqtada al-Sadr did initially have some support in Sadr City, a sprawling slum on the outskirts of Baghdad named not after Muqtada, but after his father. However, Muqtada&#39;s support has hemorrhaged over the past several months as Shia politicians like Ibrahim Jaafari of the Dawa party and Abdul Aziz Hakim of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, make inroads. I visited Sadr City often between July 2003 and March 2004, walking through markets and along apartment blocks. Posters of Muqtada al-Sadr, once omnipresent, faded or disappeared, replaced by posters of late ayatollahs like Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim, killed in an August 29, 2003, car bomb. This week&#39;s violence appears to have less to do with Iraqi sentiment than with Muqtada al-Sadr&#39;s quest for power. Abu Muhammad Sadiq, a self-described leading figure in Muqtada&#39;s militia, told the Arabic daily Al-Sharq al-Awsat on April 6, 2004, that the goal of the movement was to give Muqtada "an opportunity to lead Iraq."

    The reason for the Iraqi Shia community&#39;s aversion to Muqtada goes beyond his lackluster scholarship, to the very nature of his character: Iraqis see Muqtada as a murderer. On April 10, 2003, he ordered the murder of moderate cleric Majid al-Khoei, who was subsequently hacked to death in the Shrine of Imam Ali, one of the world&#39;s holiest Shia shrines. Muqtada later published a list of 192 Iraqi figures "to be killed." Several subsequently were.

    Rather than see Muqtada as a grassroots leader, most Iraqis see him as a proxy of the Iranian government. Muqtada receives funding through Ayatollah Kazem al-Haeri, a close confidant of the Iranian Supreme Leader, Ali Khameini. Unlike many of Iraq&#39;s traditional clergy who believe that clerical rule in a secular world would by nature corrupt religion (as it has in Iran), Muqtada al-Sadr subscribes to Khameini&#39;s vision of clerical dictatorship.

    Iraqis are not without complaint with regard to the American action. It has been more than a half-year since an Iraqi magistrate issued a warrant for Muqtada al-Sadr&#39;s arrest on charges stemming from the Khoei assassination. Contrary to off-the-cuff statements by some pundits, the magistrate was not a Coalition-appointee, but rather an ordinary, non-political judge with several years of service. Many Iraqi judges used the collapse of Saddam&#39;s regime to reinvigorate their defense of the law, no longer intimidated by Baath-party political commissars. Nevertheless, nervous hand-wringing in Washington prevented Coalition forces from taking any action. An April 7, 2004, open letter to Coalition Provisional Authority administrator L. Paul Bremer signed by 19 Iraqi intellectuals, both Sunni and Shia, lauded "the decision of the Coalition Forces to capture and remove destructive cells, which are enemies to law and order," but added, "It would have been preferable had these forces been captured before the recent events. This is the only way to deal with violent protests that bring harm to both our country and the establishment of democracy."

    The path to democracy is not easy. A successful Iraq creates a crisis of legitimacy for remnants of Saddam&#39;s regime, as well as Iraq&#39;s decidedly undemocratic neighbors: Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, and the proxy groups they fund, equip, and train. But, if there is a lesson to Muqtada al-Sadr&#39;s rise and violent fall, it is not to ignore a challenge, or to cut-and-run, but to meet challenges head on in defense of freedom and democracy.

  9. #9
    It&#39;s going to go down as one of the greatest bluders in US history. We&#39;ve gotten away with some pretty controversial moves -- support of the Contras, invasion of Grenada, troops in Lebanon (which, ahem, did not work out too well), and then, of course, there is Vietnam. But this war in Iraq is the act that will forever change our existance in the eyes of the world and here at home as well.

    Too many have died already and, as we know, not for WMD or for having anything to do with 9/11, but for something so sorry as a Bush family fued with Hussein, oil, and a misguided view that controlling Iraq could control the entire region. When we finally do leave, chances are Iraq will find itself closer to Iran in policy or engaged in a civil war. That, or we&#39;ll be there for decades trying to prevent it.

  10. #10
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jet Moses[/i]@Apr 10 2004, 09:55 PM
    [b]
    We&#39;re damned if we do, damned if we don&#39;t. For years we were blamed for propping up Sadaam, because he was a deterent to the spread of Islamic revelution, particularly of the Ayatolla Kokamamie persuasion. Saddam (I still can&#39;t spell that f**kers name) gets cute and invades Kuwait, goes totally bonkers and now we remove him-

    Now what?

    It&#39;s a mess. Look, we need the friggin&#39; oil. But let&#39;s stop acting like we can get it, and still be Mr. Nice Guy.

    Unless the American people can boycott oil, and not drive (yeah, like that&#39;s gonna happen) we might as well accept that this is the way it&#39;s gotta be: Dictators who rule with an Iron fist to maintain a semblance of stability, so we can buy the oil that keeps our economy humming.

    I mean, I hate the Saudi Royal family with a passion, and yeah, the Bush family is in bed with them, but you know, what&#39;s the alternative? It is what it is.

    And not buying oil from them any more is not a solution, neither, &#39;cos they still have plenty of customers and they will still be able to finance terrorist organizations, who are going to keep attacking our interests and killing our people both here and abroad, whether we have a dubious relationship with the Shah of the week or not.

    As for Israel, get your heads out of your ass. It&#39;s a helluva lot cheaper to finance Mossad, than the cost of not maintaining them. [/b][/quote]
    I don&#39;t care if it is about oil. Clearly we need it, and it isn&#39;t just cars. What do you think heats your homes? What do you think drives the electric power plants that give you light and electricity? It&#39;s real simple for Bush IMO. Call a spade a spade, go on national TV and be sure to broadcast it on Al Jazeera, tell these people that they clearly are a lost cause and can&#39;t be helped. Tell them we will leave and never bother them again. Then tell them that if 1 friggin terrorist act is commited on our soil by a citizen of any of their godforsaken wastelands they call a country, we will without hesitation send all of them to meet Allah personally in a flash of an eye.

  11. #11
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Boozer76[/i]@Apr 12 2004, 12:44 AM
    [b] It&#39;s real simple for Bush IMO. Call a spade a spade, go on national TV and be sure to broadcast it on Al Jazeera, tell these people that they clearly are a lost cause and can&#39;t be helped. Tell them we will leave and never bother them again. Then tell them that if 1 friggin terrorist act is commited on our soil by a citizen of any of their godforsaken wastelands they call a country, we will without hesitation send all of them to meet Allah personally in a flash of an eye. [/b][/quote]
    Yeah, but you know he won&#39;t. He&#39;s gonna continue with the "Islam is a religion of peace" mantra.

    Remember what happened to Lebanon?

    Lebanon was once a modern nation, but it was reduced to ruins by years of
    war. Although Islam is in the majority, there is freedom of religion.

    Lebanon is located in the Middle East just north of Israel on the eastern
    end of the Mediterranean Sea. It also shares a border with Syria. It&#39;s a
    beautiful land of plains and mountains.

    Approximately 3.6 million people live in Lebanon. Nearly all are Arab.
    [b]Lebanon once had a majority Christian population but this is no longer
    true.[/b]

    Lebanon was once wealthy and an economic center of the Middle East.
    Decades of war have destroyed the economy. Some rebuilding has taken
    place in recent years, but Lebanon is a mere shadow of its former
    prominence.

    Lebanon gained independence during World War II. At the time of
    independence, power was permanently apportioned among the various religious
    groups based on their size. At the time, Christians were the largest
    group. [b] An influx of Muslims upset the balance of power and led to civil
    war.[/b] The war lasted from 1975 to 1990. After the war, Lebanon found
    itself caught in the hostilities between Israel and the Arab states of the
    region. This has caused continued instability.

    Islam is now the majority religion, but, remarkably, Lebanon grants freedom
    of religion. The Roman Catholic Church accounts for more the 20% of the
    population and most other Christians are Eastern Orthodox. Evangelicals
    number less than 1%. The number of Christians relative to Muslims
    continues to fall. [b] Many Christians have left the country over the last 25
    years.[/b]

    It&#39;s like a Midas touch for Islam, only everything they touch doesn&#39;t turn to gold.

    Its turns to crap.

  12. #12
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [u]Why we must never abandon this historic struggle in Iraq [/u]

    [SIZE=3][b]Tony Blair[/b][/SIZE]
    Sunday April 11, 2004
    The Observer

    We are locked in a historic struggle in Iraq. On its outcome hangs more than the fate of the Iraqi people. Were we to fail, which we will not, it is more than &#39;the power of America&#39; that would be defeated. The hope of freedom and religious tolerance in Iraq would be snuffed out. Dictators would rejoice; fanatics and terrorists would be triumphant. Every nascent strand of moderate Arab opinion, knowing full well that the future should not belong to fundamentalist religion, would be set back in bitter disappointment.
    If we succeed - if Iraq becomes a sovereign state, governed democratically by the Iraqi people; the wealth of that potentially rich country, their wealth; the oil, their oil; the police state replaced by the rule of law and respect for human rights - imagine the blow dealt to the poisonous propaganda of the extremists. Imagine the propulsion toward change it would inaugurate all over the Middle East.

    In every country, including our own, the fanatics are preaching their gospel of hate, basing their doctrine on a wilful perversion of the true religion of Islam. At their fringe are groups of young men prepared to conduct terrorist attacks however and whenever they can. Thousands of victims the world over have now died, but the impact is worse than the death of innocent people.

    The terrorists prey on ethnic or religious discord. From Kashmir to Chechnya, to Palestine and Israel, they foment hatred, they deter reconciliation. In Europe, they conducted the massacre in Madrid. They threaten France. They forced the cancellation of the President of Germany&#39;s visit to Djibouti. They have been foiled in Britain, but only for now.

    Of course they use Iraq. It is vital to them. As each attack brings about American attempts to restore order, so they then characterise it as American brutality. As each piece of chaos menaces the very path toward peace and democracy along which most Iraqis want to travel, they use it to try to make the coalition lose heart, and bring about the retreat that is the fanatics&#39; victory.

    They know it is a historic struggle. They know their victory would do far more than defeat America or Britain. It would defeat civilisation and democracy everywhere. They know it, but do we? The truth is, faced with this struggle, on which our own fate hangs, a significant part of Western opinion is sitting back, if not half-hoping we fail, certainly replete with schadenfreude at the difficulty we find.

    So what exactly is the nature of the battle inside Iraq itself? This is not a &#39;civil war&#39;, though the purpose of the terrorism is undoubtedly to try to provoke one. The current upsurge in violence has not spread throughout Iraq. Much of Iraq is unaffected and most Iraqis reject it. The insurgents are former Saddam sympathisers, Angry that their status as &#39;boss&#39; has been removed, terrorist groups linked to al-Qaeda and, most recently, followers of the Shia cleric, Muqtada-al-Sadr.

    The latter is not in any shape or form representative of majority Shia opinion. He is a fundamentalist, an extremist, an advocate of violence. He is wanted in connection with the murder of the moderate and much more senior cleric, Ayatollah al Khoei last year. The prosecutor, an Iraqi judge, who issued a warrant for his arrest, is the personification of how appallingly one-sided some of the Western reporting has become. Dismissed as an American stooge, he has braved assassination attempts and extraordinary intimidation in order to follow proper judicial process and has insisted on issuing the warrant despite direct threats to his life in doing so.

    There you have it. On the one side, outside terrorists, an extremist who has created his own militia, and remnants of a brutal dictatorship which murdered hundreds of thousands of its own people and enslaved the rest. On the other side, people of immense courage and humanity who dare to believe that basic human rights and liberty are not alien to Arab and Middle Eastern culture, but are their salvation.

    Over the past few weeks, I have met several people from the Iraqi government, the first genuine cross-community government Iraq had seen. People like Mrs Barwari, the Minister of Public Works, who has just survived a second assassination attempt that killed her bodyguard; people like Mr Zebari, the Foreign Minister. They are intelligent, forward-looking, tolerant, dedicated to their country. They know that &#39;the occupation&#39; can be used to stir up anti-coalition feeling; they, too, want their country governed by its people and no one else. But they also know that if we cut and run, their country would be at the mercy of warring groups which are united only in their distaste for democracy.

    The tragedy is that outside of the violence which dominated the coverage of Iraq, there are incredible possibilities of progress. There is a huge amount of reconstruction going on; the legacy of decades of neglect is slowly being repaired.

    By 1 June, electricity will be 6,000MW, 50 per cent more than prewar, but short of the 7,500MW they now need because of the massive opening up of the economy, set to grow by 60 per cent this year and 25 per cent the next.

    The first private banks are being opened. A new currency is in circulation. Those in work have seen their salaries trebled or quadrupled and unemployment is falling. One million cars have been imported. Thirty per cent now have satellite TV, once banned, where they can watch al-Jazeera, the radical Arab TV station, telling them how awful the Americans are.

    The internet is no longer forbidden. Shrines are no longer shut. Groups of women and lawyers meet to discuss how they can make sure the new constitution genuinely promotes equality. The universities eagerly visit Western counterparts to see how a modern, higher-education system, free to study as it pleases, would help the new Iraq.

    People in the West ask: why don&#39;t they speak up, these standard-bearers of the new Iraq? Why don&#39;t the Shia clerics denounce al-Sadr more strongly? I understand why the question is asked. But the answer is simple: they are worried. They remember 1991, when the West left them to their fate. They know their own street, unused to democratic debate, rife with every rumour, and know its volatility. They read the Western papers and hear its media. And they ask, as the terrorists do: have we the stomach to see it through?

    I believe we do. And the rest of the world must hope that we do. None of this is to say we do not have to learn and listen. There is an agenda that could unite the majority of the world. It would be about pursuing terrorism and rogue states on the one hand and actively remedying the causes around which they flourish on the other: the Palestinian issue; poverty and development; democracy in the Middle East; dialogue between main religions.

    I have come firmly to believe the only ultimate security lies in our values. The more people are free, the more tolerant they are of others; the more prosperous, the less inclined they are to squander that prosperity on pointless feuding and war.

    But our greatest threat, apart from the immediate one of terrorism, is our complacency. When some ascribe, as they do, the upsurge in Islamic extremism to Iraq, do they really forget who killed whom on 11 September 2001? When they call on us to bring the troops home, do they seriously think that this would slake the thirst of these extremists, to say nothing of what it would do to the Iraqis?

    Or if we scorned our American allies and told them to go and fight on their own, that somehow we would be spared? If we withdraw from Iraq, they will tell us to withdraw from Afghanistan and, after that, to withdraw from the Middle East completely and, after that, who knows? But one thing is for sure: they have faith in our weakness just as they have faith in their own religious fanaticism. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us.

    It is not easy to persuade people of all this; to say that terrorism and unstable states with WMD are just two sides of the same coin; to tell people what they don&#39;t want to hear; that, in a world in which we in the West enjoy all the pleasures, profound and trivial, of modern existence, we are in grave danger.

    There is a battle we have to fight, a struggle we have to win and it is happening now in Iraq.

  13. #13
    5ever, to quote Jet Moses, these are the people we are fighting for:

    [quote][b]Remember last year when Bagdad was initially liberated? Shortly after that, the Shiites were out in the street "celebrating" some holiday for the first time in like, 30 years, because Saddam outlawed it? The ceremony entailed cutting your scalp and bleeding profusely. Anybody else remember how macabre and ominous those images were at the time? It was like, "What Pandora&#39;s box have we just opened".

    Dunno if this is the same thing, but if this is a different holy day, then the running theme with these people is obviously sadomasochism:


    [url=http://ani.20fr.com/polgr/inani/ax/ashura/ashura2.htm]http://ani.20fr.com/polgr/inani/ax/ashura/ashura2.htm[/url]

    These people are out of their minds.

    [img]http://ani.20fr.com/polgr/inani/ax/ashura/pg3/cc01a.jpg[/img][/b][/quote]

    You really believe these people are capable of being helped :blink: :blink:

  14. #14
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Apr 10 2004, 10:05 PM
    [b] told ya so <_< [/b][/quote]
    You are all class...

  15. #15
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    That&#39;s it liberals, just give up. Let all the soldiers who&#39;ve shed blood die in vain -- all so you can have an "I told you so" moment.

    The military will regain control when they stop liberal-footing around with the trouble makers.

    You liberals are all worthless pieces of human garbage and you&#39;re not worth debating anymore.

    Besides, you can always hope the trend continues, soldiers die and America - tail tucked between it&#39;s legs - pulls a Vietnam. Then, your guy can assume power. Cause that&#39;s really all this is about.

    Then you&#39;ll have your higher taxes, your secure borders and UN control of our military.

    Then you can wake up from your wet dream and watch the Bush reelection.

  16. #16
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Piper+Apr 12 2004, 11:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Piper @ Apr 12 2004, 11:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--bitonti[/i]@Apr 10 2004, 10:05 PM
    [b] told ya so <_< [/b][/quote]
    You are all class... [/b][/quote]
    ya know what Piper this is one situation where i wish i was wrong - would rather be wrong and have all those soldiers still alive then right and have them dead

    before you call me "class" you should consider your own allegances and beliefs. If being classy means supporting s**t that makes no sense without thinking about it then i don&#39;t want to be classy.

  17. #17
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti+Apr 12 2004, 11:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (bitonti @ Apr 12 2004, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -Piper@Apr 12 2004, 11:43 AM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--bitonti[/i]@Apr 10 2004, 10:05 PM
    [b] told ya so <_< [/b][/quote]
    You are all class... [/b][/quote]
    ya know what Piper this is one situation where i wish i was wrong - would rather be wrong and have all those soldiers still alive then right and have them dead

    before you call me "class" you should consider your own allegances and beliefs. If being classy means supporting s**t that makes no sense without thinking about it then i don&#39;t want to be classy. [/b][/quote]
    Climb down off the high horse and read your own post again.

    "I told you so" doesn&#39;t sound like someone who wished they were wrong blah blah blah.

    I wish my cousin who died in the WTC was still alive as well, and he may well have been if we had blown Afganistan all to hell a few years back. I don&#39;t know.

    But the difference between me and you is that I&#39;m not convinced that I know everything like you do and hope that these sacrifices help prevent or at least delay the next 9-11. Because I know that doing nothing in the 90&#39;s like you advocate didn&#39;t work.

  18. #18
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Spirit of Weeb[/i]@Apr 12 2004, 11:57 AM
    [b] That&#39;s it liberals, just give up. Let all the soldiers who&#39;ve shed blood die in vain -- all so you can have an "I told you so" moment.

    The military will regain control when they stop liberal-footing around with the trouble makers.

    You liberals are all worthless pieces of human garbage and you&#39;re not worth debating anymore.

    Besides, you can always hope the trend continues, soldiers die and America - tail tucked between it&#39;s legs - pulls a Vietnam. Then, your guy can assume power. Cause that&#39;s really all this is about.

    Then you&#39;ll have your higher taxes, your secure borders and UN control of our military.

    Then you can wake up from your wet dream and watch the Bush reelection. [/b][/quote]
    Spirit, take it easy. I am far from being a liberal and would rather lay on tracks than vote for Kerry. My point is we went in there to oust Saddam, restore some order in the ME by installing a free democratic government, ad all the while gain some benefits in oil. There is nothing wrong with that plan. But my point is that plan goes along with the assumption that Iraqi&#39;s and ME&#39;s in general are capable of living free. IMO they can&#39;t. These people live and act like animals. Even now as Saddam was removed they are immediately pushing to install another tyrant, probably even worse than Saddam was. They can&#39;t be helped, so save our resources and our lives and pull out. Issue a strong warning that if they so much as com near our country with intentions to commit terrorist acts then we will wipte out the country they come from. Plain and simple.

  19. #19
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Boozer76[/i]@Apr 12 2004, 12:17 PM
    [b] Issue a strong warning that if they so much as com near our country with intentions to commit terrorist acts then we will wipte out the country they come from. Plain and simple. [/b][/quote]
    Problem is if we Pull a Kerry and turntail and run, NO ONE WILL BELIEVE US WHEN WE THREATEN THEM. The issue here is credibility&#33; The U.S. has a credibility problem as it is because of all of the Liberal bellyaching and whining. We didnt finish the job in Somalia or Lebanon. The A-Rabs know this and feel like the U.S. is likely to pull out when the going gets tough. Anti-war talk in the US gives aid and comfort to the enemy. Prior to Vietnam it would have been unthinkable to criticise the Government in a time of war. In the post Vietnam era its considdered trendy and cool to protest and speak out against the government. Well theese trendy protesters put our troops in jeopardy and are a danger to this country.
    John Kerry represents all that is wrong with this country&#33;

  20. #20
    Piper the only problem is there&#39;s no connection between Iraq or Afghanistan and 9-11. We&#39;d have a better chance invading our allies the House of Saud to stop 9-11 than the other two.

    when you mention your loss and use it as justification for this war all you are doing is cheapening his/her death by associating it with this conflict that has way more to do with oil and Israel then it ever did with terrorism.

    Maybe one day people will do the math and figure out that 2+2 does not equal 5

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