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Thread: Bush's history making stance on Israel

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    April 15, 2004 -- WASHINGTON - President Bush handed Israel - and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon - a huge victory yesterday.
    "In 56 years, we never had such a statement from an American president," Sharon said, referring to the founding of Israel in 1948.

    Until yesterday, the U.S. position was that the "final status" of Israeli-Palestinian relations - and the difficult issues of borders, settlements and refugees, among other things - would be resolved by negotiations between the two sides, even though such talks repeatedly failed when Yasser Arafat refused to compromise.

    But yesterday, Bush outlined at least part what the "final status" should look like - and on the key issues he leaned strongly toward the Israeli side.

    What happened yesterday was the result of a secret dialogue between Sharon and Bush that began in November.

    Through intermediaries, Sharon outlined that he was preparing a major change in the Mideast - a unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

    But Sharon also wanted U.S. commitments about the future, not only of Gaza, but of the West Bank as well.



    Two weeks ago, when a high-level diplomatic delegation arrived in Israel, Sharon thought he reached a package of agreements that would be summed up in an exchange of letters at the White House.

    But intense Arab pressure arose.

    Sharon sent his own delegation to Washington to iron out the differences over wording.

    But there was still a "moment of crisis" on Monday night, as a highly-placed Israeli official put it, when Sharon delayed his departure for the U.S. until he got the latest version of the documents.

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    This is a victory for Democracy and freedom.

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    This is a victory for the .01% of the population of the US that is actually Jewish. Other than that, it is a victory for anyone who supports genocide.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Apr 15 2004, 02:07 PM
    [b] This is a victory for the .01% of the population of the US that is actually Jewish. Other than that, it is a victory for anyone who supports genocide. [/b][/quote]
    You would love to appease the terrorists by giving them what they want. Your just like the European appeasers. Israel could wipe out all the Palestinians very easily, but they dont. I highly doubt that in the reverse situation the Palestinian terrorists would be as kind.

    Let me remind you that there was never any mandate by the UN for a Palestinian state. The land was divided between the Isrealis and the Jordanians. Jordan attacked Israel in 1967 and once defeated renounced thier rights to the land.

    I'll put it to you simply so you can understand, Israel was attacked by the Arabs in a war of aggression. Their intention was to wipe the country off the face of the planet. The A-rabs lost. THEY LOST! Then to make matters worse, The Jordanians gave up thier claim to the land now considdered the territories.

    Lets put it in a European perspective so you can get an even clearer picture of right and wrong. After the Nazis and thier allies lost in WW2 there were many territories which the losing countries had to relinquish. For example in Germany a strip of land along the French German border which for a long time had been under the controll of the Germans was claimed by the French. The Germans living there were forcefully moved back into Germany.

    Those people are not currently living in refugee camps in Germany. They accepted that their country lost a war of aggression and that the exchange of land was the natural outcome.

    The Israelis had every right to the land which they claimed after their victory in the 6 day war. If they were interested in "genocide" or if they were generally the "bad guys" in that circumstance they could have rounded up all the arabs and thrown them out of the territory.

    But they didnt. They tried to live together in peace. I think its obvious that it is impossible for Arabs to live in peace with anyone. Example: The muslims in India wanted thier own country. India was split in to two countries, India and Pakistan. By your logic everything should be fine there. The muslims got what they want right. Wrong! The arabs want controll of a small city called Kasmir. The two countries are constantly in a state of war and have been edging closer to a nuculear war. It is impossible to live in peace with muslims as most of them are war mongering peoples.

    As for your claim of genocide, your irresponsible with your words. To make such a claim with no knowledge of the history of the conflict is both dangerous and reckless. Especially when your referring to the Jews who have been the targets of genocide on multiple occasions.

    Shame on you.

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    Shame on me?

    What else happened after WWII? Ever hear of the Berlin Wall? That is what Israel is doing, cutting off access to schools, hospitals, by caging off the Palestinians.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Apr 15 2004, 03:32 PM
    [b] Shame on me?

    What else happened after WWII? Ever hear of the Berlin Wall? That is what Israel is doing, cutting off access to schools, hospitals, by caging off the Palestinians. [/b][/quote]
    You're a gullible person, Section. The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in, not to keep attackers out. You see the word "wall" and think it is analagous. If the "Palestinians" stopped blowing up cafes, there'd be no need for that wall.

    Your reflexive and ignorant, whiny liberalism is appalling. You simply don't know much about anything....

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Apr 15 2004, 03:32 PM
    [b] Shame on me?

    What else happened after WWII? Ever hear of the Berlin Wall? That is what Israel is doing, cutting off access to schools, hospitals, by caging off the Palestinians. [/b][/quote]
    Correct me if im wrong but I assume that there is a barrier between the U.S. and Mexico. Does that mean we caged off the Mexicans. Cut them off from jobs and wellfare programs in the US? If the Palestinians werent strapping themselves with bombs so they can get 72 virgins in heaven for blowing up women and children than they wouldn't need to be cut off from Israel. As it is their ability to cross into israel is a privilage not a right. If I lock my door at night I guess you could say I'm cutting off the criminals from food and shelter. Your argument is just plain stupid.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Apr 15 2004, 07:48 PM
    [b]
    You're a gullible person, Section. The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in, not to keep attackers out. You see the word "wall" and think it is analagous. If the "Palestinians" stopped blowing up cafes, there'd be no need for that wall.

    Your reflexive and ignorant, whiny liberalism is appalling. You simply don't know much about anything.... [/b][/quote]
    You do know that the Russian backed East Germany surrounded Berlin?

    That they Americans had to airdrop in food for like 8 weeks?

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by chiefst2000[/i]@Apr 15 2004, 06:56 PM
    [b] Let me remind you that there was never any mandate by the UN for a Palestinian state. The land was divided between the Isrealis and the Jordanians. Jordan attacked Israel in 1967 and once defeated renounced thier rights to the land.



    [/b][/quote]
    Let's go back a little bit in history (before "the land was devided between the Israelis and Jordanians"). It was Palestine!

    England and France attempted to control the region, and when it didn't work out in the '40s, Palestine went up for grabs. Since then, they've been screwed over time and time again by people who had no right to their land.

    The Palestinians were screwed over by Europe and then by some Arab neighbors, and, of course, by Israel and the United States. Palestine should belong to the indigenous people, many of whom lost their homes on account of this mess.

    Justice might have been well better served had a Jewish State been created in the heart of Germany or somewhere else in Europe. Why should the Palestinians suffer for what Hitler did?

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by nickledefense[/i]@Apr 16 2004, 01:28 AM
    [b] Why should the Palestinians suffer for what Hitler did? [/b][/quote]
    great question, and one that Ibn Saud asked of FDR in 1944 when he asked for Ibn's blessing on the creation of Israel. Harry Truman didn't get the memo i guess.

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    The Palestinians have been offered a country over and over. Clinton and Barak damn near gave them everything they wanted and they still refused. They'd rather live in this fantasyland that Israel will dry up and blow away than actually do the hard work of running a government. It's easier for Arafat to recruit gullible kids to blow themselves up while he shovels cash into his Swiss accounts than actually govern. And it culls the herd and cuts down on the long-term competition. Governing would involve living in peace with the Jews(and frankly, doing business with the most business-savvy folks on the planet, which could be lucrative), and worse,working. And work just isn't fun to a terrorist. There's no fun to be had in picking up the garbage, building roads, running hospitals(which with all the money Europe and America have given the PLO, they've never bothered to build any), educating children to compete in the world economy (rather than call Jews nasty names) and stopping the petty crime that's become the PLO's racket. Palestine coculd become Hong Kong; it could become the Las Vegas of the Middle East. But they have a leadership that prefers playing this terrorist game and a people that have been fed this nonsense for so long that they believe it. They should ask themselves that if being a suicide bomber is so great, why hasn't Yasser done it?

    Yes, the Israelis have sometimes gone too far. But they aren't doing things in a vacuum. The true problem confronts the Palestinians every time they look in the mirror.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by nickledefense+Apr 16 2004, 01:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (nickledefense @ Apr 16 2004, 01:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--chiefst2000[/i]@Apr 15 2004, 06:56 PM
    [b] Let me remind you that there was never any mandate by the UN for a Palestinian state. The land was divided between the Isrealis and the Jordanians. Jordan attacked Israel in 1967 and once defeated renounced thier rights to the land.



    [/b][/quote]
    Let&#39;s go back a little bit in history (before "the land was devided between the Israelis and Jordanians"). It was Palestine&#33;

    England and France attempted to control the region, and when it didn&#39;t work out in the &#39;40s, Palestine went up for grabs. Since then, they&#39;ve been screwed over time and time again by people who had no right to their land.

    The Palestinians were screwed over by Europe and then by some Arab neighbors, and, of course, by Israel and the United States. Palestine should belong to the indigenous people, many of whom lost their homes on account of this mess.

    Justice might have been well better served had a Jewish State been created in the heart of Germany or somewhere else in Europe. Why should the Palestinians suffer for what Hitler did? [/b][/quote]
    People who had no right to their land?? The Arabs took that land by force&#33;

    Exactly how were the Jewish minorities in arab countries treated prior to the creation of Israel? What "right" did those arabs have to butcher those Jews and drive them out of their homelands?

    How far bak in history do you want to go, guy? EVERY country took its land by force. Every group can come up with some hisptory that "legitimizes" their present gripes.

    All that gets you is nothing. Bugg is exactly right.

    Moreover, TONs of groups have become refugees and have NEVER been given a "right of return" including Jews&#33; The other Arab countries invaded Israel and told the arabs in the region to evacuate to clear a path for the advancing pan-Arab armies.

    "Right of return" is a code-word. If all of the "Palestinians" were able to return, Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. Arabs know this, Jews know this. It is why this "right" is bogus and can never be granted.

    Liberal sympathizers of the "Palestinians" have no concept of what they are talking about.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by nickledefense+Apr 16 2004, 01:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (nickledefense @ Apr 16 2004, 01:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--chiefst2000[/i]@Apr 15 2004, 06:56 PM
    [b] Let me remind you that there was never any mandate by the UN for a Palestinian state. The land was divided between the Isrealis and the Jordanians. Jordan attacked Israel in 1967 and once defeated renounced thier rights to the land.



    [/b][/quote]
    Let&#39;s go back a little bit in history (before "the land was devided between the Israelis and Jordanians"). It was Palestine&#33;

    England and France attempted to control the region, and when it didn&#39;t work out in the &#39;40s, Palestine went up for grabs. Since then, they&#39;ve been screwed over time and time again by people who had no right to their land.

    The Palestinians were screwed over by Europe and then by some Arab neighbors, and, of course, by Israel and the United States. Palestine should belong to the indigenous people, many of whom lost their homes on account of this mess.

    Justice might have been well better served had a Jewish State been created in the heart of Germany or somewhere else in Europe. Why should the Palestinians suffer for what Hitler did? [/b][/quote]
    I see that by your logic Israel has no right to exsist because the Palestinians were there first. Hmm.... Thats very interesting........... hold for a sec.................................Wait a minute I just took a look in the bible and it says there that the Jews were there first? Who should I believe an idiot or the bible? I wonder?

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by chiefst2000[/i]@Apr 16 2004, 10:51 AM
    [b] Wait a minute I just took a look in the bible and it says there that the Jews were there first? Who should I believe an idiot or the bible? I wonder? [/b][/quote]
    Not exactly a strong argument :lol:

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    The Bible isn&#39;t exactly a legal document....


    However, Muslims overtook their homeland by force, that is well documented. Like I said, EVERY ethnic group in the world can reach back into time and point to an event in which they feel they were wronged by another group. For people like Section or others to claim that some piece of land is "rightfully" the "Palestinians" is a joke.

    Israel was created and Arabs were displaced, so they may have a legit gripe. But many Jews were butchered and forced to flee from all over Europe prior to the creation of Israel, and no one on the left like to mention the fact that Jews were expelled from many ME areas under the Ottomans, and they were butchered and oppressed too. If Israel had never been created, who knows what would have happened to those Jewish minorities in Arab lands.

    We cannot change history, and we cannot fall prey to the lazy intellectual relativism that creates the myth of the "noble savage" who is justified perhaps not in action, but certainly in motive. Israel doesn&#39;t "occupy" the West Bank or Gaza anymore than they "occupy" Tel Aviv. Those lands were part of Israel proper and were siezed by the Arabs after the wars of the 40&#39;s. During that time and before the Arabs attacked Israel again from those very areas, the Arabs proceeded to butcher and expell the Jews who were living there. Then, Israel reclaimed what was taken from them by force only twenty years earlier in 1967, when the Arabs attacked Israel and lost.

    The Arabs have sought to destroy Israel even during periods when they were in control of the presently so-called "occupied territories" so it is laughable that people believe this myth that these territories are the main reason Palestinians are righteously murderous or even that statehood is the ultimate goal of the Palestinians or "political parties" like Hamas, who are still funded by the EU for the sake of "dialogue." This thinking insults the intelligence of rational people....

    Both parties feel that they have legit claims to the land, and history, when used selectively, can bolster each claim. The key difference between the two is that the Palestinians seek the destruction of Israel, while all Israel wants is to live in peace. Also, there are 50 other Arab countries that have more than enough room for the &#39;Palestinians&#39; to live in, yet they do not allow them to move in because they need to keep the Palestinians &#39;down&#39; so that they can exploit western public opinion and anti-semitism (I know, I know, anti-semitism doesn&#39;t exist, ESPECIALLY not in Europe or the ME) over the "mistreatment" of the "Palestinians." Nobody had ever heard of a "Palestinian" until after the Arabs attacked Israel and they are not any different from those arabs from Lebanon, Jordan or Syria. They are a modern creation. Arabs have been able to define the terms of this struggle and use words like "occupied" or "ethnic cleansing" or "settlements" and even describe cold-blooded mass murderers as "spritual leaders" and baby-killers as "militants" in order to sway the emotions of ignorant and intellectually lazy people and to legitimze their barbaric actions and intentions towards Israel. So far, they have succeeded fabulously. Our academic elites in colleges only help to bolster this nonsense. If it wasn&#39;t so dangerous it&#39;d be funny.

    So-called open-minded people like Bit and Section are so willing to couch the USA&#39;s war on terror as a Crusade and mention the "Zionist plots" all the time, meanwhile they neglect to mention the religious aspect of Islam in regards to terrorism, and feel that all Muslim terrorists are not as religiously fanatical as the other side, and are merely reacting in a virtuous mannar to religious and military oppression.

    That said, Israel does go overboard in her retaliations from time to time and is not without it&#39;s share of committed atrocities. However, it is surrounded by millions of people who have invaded them many times and who continue to actively seek their complete destruction, so I don&#39;t blame them for being overly aggressive from time to time. Coupled with the fact that the EU, UN and others actively try to undermine Israel&#39;s right to exist, I think they have actually shown considerable restraint. The UN can write resolutions decrying the new barrier or "wall" or whatever you call it, but they have not once condemned Palestinian homicide bombers and pretty soon even detached and morally bankrupt leftists will realize that one group retaliates by targeting terrorists and the other instigates by targeting babies and women in cafes.

    Most moronic lefties and academics feel that the world is ever so close to achieving peace and they blame the USA for the violence in the world...nearly all of it, it seems. However, the aggregate wealth and leisure that we enjoy over here in America has blinded us to the fact the the world and humanity in general has ALWAYS been a violent hurricane. To think that one group is reposnsible or that another group is merely an innocent victim is the height of absurdity.

    I suppose if my wife is raped, I should not go after the rapist. I should learn to simply not get married. After all, had I never had a wife to begin with, she&#39;d have never been raped.

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    Jets5, The creation of Israel was an injustice to the Palestinians, just as our history was an injustice to the indiginous people of this land. Bottom line, though, is that we can&#39;t turn back history. Both peoples are there to stay.

    But, for crying out loud, get the settlements out of the West Bank and Gaza&#33;&#33;&#33; Sharon is basically saying, "sure, I&#39;ll give up Gaza for more control over the West Bank, and if a Palestinian state should ever exist, it will be the size of a pea."

    Sharon, Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz. These people give me the creeps. And there will never be peace in the Middle East with these folks around.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by nickledefense[/i]@Apr 17 2004, 04:54 AM
    [b] Sharon, Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz. These people give me the creeps. And there will never be peace in the Middle East with these folks around. [/b][/quote]
    Was there peace before GW in the Middle East? :rolleyes:

    No.

    I think GW standing behind Israel as oppossed to giving verbal assurances that the Presidents of the last 56 years have done stands a better chance at getting a final peace. How many failed peace summits have there been? Too many to count. It always comes down to Israel doing something and Palestine backed terrorism responding and vice versa.

    GW&#39;s backing is saying enough is enough. Get this &#036;hit resolved. Palestine has had ample opportunity to do the right thing and have not. Well, there time has come and gone. Let Israel determine the roadmap to peace and Palestine can deal with it.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by PFSIKH+Apr 17 2004, 03:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (PFSIKH @ Apr 17 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--nickledefense[/i]@Apr 17 2004, 04:54 AM
    [b] Sharon, Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz. These people give me the creeps. And there will never be peace in the Middle East with these folks around. [/b][/quote]
    Was there peace before GW in the Middle East? :rolleyes:

    No.

    I think GW standing behind Israel as oppossed to giving verbal assurances that the Presidents of the last 56 years have done stands a better chance at getting a final peace. How many failed peace summits have there been? Too many to count. It always comes down to Israel doing something and Palestine backed terrorism responding and vice versa.

    GW&#39;s backing is saying enough is enough. Get this &#036;hit resolved. Palestine has had ample opportunity to do the right thing and have not. Well, there time has come and gone. Let Israel determine the roadmap to peace and Palestine can deal with it. [/b][/quote]
    You are quite right that peace has alluded the Middle East for decades, but that wasn&#39;t my point. My point is that the actions of Sharon (backed by Bush) ensure that it will never happen in the immediate future.

    "GW&#39;s backing is saying enough is enough." Really? I think all of us who think logically can agree that the violence goes back and forth, but let me ask you this. When was the last time you&#39;ve seen an Israeli farmer driven from his home? When was the last time you&#39;ve seen an Israeli home bulldozed? When was the last time you&#39;ve seen an Israeli school shut down for months? When was the last time you&#39;ve seen an Israeli stoped at check points? Not lately I&#39;m guessing. Now go talk to a Palestinian.

    Occupation is an ugly word, but even worse to live under. I&#39;m sure some people may respond by claiming Israel is forced to do so for security reasons, but I don&#39;t buy it. If security was the top priority, the settlements would have been long gone.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by nickledefense+Apr 18 2004, 12:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (nickledefense @ Apr 18 2004, 12:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -PFSIKH@Apr 17 2004, 03:04 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--nickledefense[/i]@Apr 17 2004, 04:54 AM
    [b] Sharon, Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz. These people give me the creeps. And there will never be peace in the Middle East with these folks around. [/b][/quote]
    Was there peace before GW in the Middle East? :rolleyes:

    No.

    I think GW standing behind Israel as oppossed to giving verbal assurances that the Presidents of the last 56 years have done stands a better chance at getting a final peace. How many failed peace summits have there been? Too many to count. It always comes down to Israel doing something and Palestine backed terrorism responding and vice versa.

    GW&#39;s backing is saying enough is enough. Get this &#036;hit resolved. Palestine has had ample opportunity to do the right thing and have not. Well, there time has come and gone. Let Israel determine the roadmap to peace and Palestine can deal with it. [/b][/quote]
    You are quite right that peace has alluded the Middle East for decades, but that wasn&#39;t my point. My point is that the actions of Sharon (backed by Bush) ensure that it will never happen in the immediate future.

    "GW&#39;s backing is saying enough is enough." Really? I think all of us who think logically can agree that the violence goes back and forth, but let me ask you this. When was the last time you&#39;ve seen an Israeli farmer driven from his home? When was the last time you&#39;ve seen an Israeli home bulldozed? When was the last time you&#39;ve seen an Israeli school shut down for months? When was the last time you&#39;ve seen an Israeli stoped at check points? Not lately I&#39;m guessing. Now go talk to a Palestinian.

    Occupation is an ugly word, but even worse to live under. I&#39;m sure some people may respond by claiming Israel is forced to do so for security reasons, but I don&#39;t buy it. If security was the top priority, the settlements would have been long gone. [/b][/quote]
    Let me ask you a question. When was the last time an Israeli blew himself up on a bus full of Palestinian women and children. The problem is you dont understand the motivations of these people. Your back and fourth violence hypothesis is JUST PLAIN WRONG.

    Up untill the current uprising there was free travel between Israel and the territories. Israelis shoped in Palestinian towns & many Palestinians were employed by Israeli&#39;s. Israel has no interest in hurting the Palestinians thier only interest is security. Everyday some Palestinian straps a bomb to himself with the noble goal of killing innocent women and children. They actually believe in the promise of 72 virgins&#33; Its difficult for us as Americans to understand that line of thinking. The idea seems absurd. We try to justify it through logic & reason.

    Getting back to right of return and the Bush statement. This is important:

    Bush&#39;s statement advances the peace process.

    Why?

    The Palestinians have a plan. Create a state in the territories called Palestine run by Palestinians. Return all the refugees to Israel. With a majority of Palestinians then in Israel the Jewish state, through democracy, will no longer exsist. It is a non starter. It is impossible. It will not happen. That needed to be said.

    The negitiations between the Palestinians and Israel can move forward to discusstions of security and borders. In the long run the Bush plan is a solid one. Negotiations cannot begin when the Palestinians starting point is an impossibility. So Bush took it off the table.

  20. #20
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by nickledefense[/i]@Apr 17 2004, 12:54 AM
    [b] Jets5, The creation of Israel was an injustice to the Palestinians, just as our history was an injustice to the indiginous people of this land. Bottom line, though, is that we can&#39;t turn back history. Both peoples are there to stay.

    But, for crying out loud, get the settlements out of the West Bank and Gaza&#33;&#33;&#33; Sharon is basically saying, "sure, I&#39;ll give up Gaza for more control over the West Bank, and if a Palestinian state should ever exist, it will be the size of a pea."

    Sharon, Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz. These people give me the creeps. And there will never be peace in the Middle East with these folks around. [/b][/quote]
    And what does the "right of return" say to Israelis, nickel?? It says, "Sure, Israel has a right to exist, so long as the Jews are the minority and it is not truly a Jewish state&#33;" Cause that&#39;s what granting the "right of return" to all of the "Palestinians" would create. How has Hamas promoted peace?

    Also, the "indigenous people" of this land we currently live in may have migrated here, and some of them definitely did. Either way, the native americans were not some unified, peaceful ethinic group. They were comprised of many warring, ethnically diverse tribes that took land from EACH OTHER by force. The notion that we "stole" land from them is as absurd as it is inaccurate. This is not to say we don&#39;t have blood on our hands or have not mistreated them, we have. But they used the same tactics we did, we were simply better at it. EVERYONE has blood on their hands because humanity is inherently violent, selfish and prone to aggression. Conservatives understand this, and liberals do not, generally. It is why the adherence to custom, tradition and history used by conservatives is often mistaken for simple-mindedness or close-mindedness by their opponents and is why abstract, utopian constructs always fail when implemented in the "real" world. Abstract models of government and human behavior are all well and good, and people should continue to think in the abstract because many incremental benefits can be dervied from such thought as our structure is improved upon. However, "education" or "dialogue" are not going to alter the intrinsic chemistry of human beings no matter how popular psycho-analysis or moral relativism becomes among our elites and academics. The Greeks and Romans knew this, Edmund Burke knew this, and I think people today are forgetting it. Our ancestors were NOT morons who needed to "evolve" IMO. There is a wealth of insight and instruction to be found amid the rubble of history and almost all of it is relevant to us today. Radical change that has supposedly benevolent philosophical origins is often a front for what is actually a naked power grab and should be viewed skeptically. (Yes, I went off on a random tangent there, guilty as charged&#33;)

    Also - how do you think the &#39;Palestinians&#39; got their land originally? By peaceful means? Ha&#33; I laugh at that notion.

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