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Thread: Pats draft and the Jets draft (day 1)

  1. #1
    OK....

    [b]The Jets Draft[/b]

    LB Jonathan Vilma
    CB Derrick Strait

    Say what you want about whether Bradway could have gotten a sixth and a seventh while still getting [b]Jonathan Vilma[/b].... Bradway did the right thing. He didn't get to cute and he got the player he wanted. You can make the case that he should have gone for one of the diving D-Linemen. Good luck. If Bradway [i]had[/i] traded down he might well have found that Vilma was gone by the time the Jets pick rolled around.

    [b]Derrick Strait[/b].... lets just say I was rooting for the Pats to move up in the 2nd to get him.... then for them to take him in the 2nd.... then for them to get him in the 3rd..... and I was TICKED that the Jets got him.

    Speed questions or not he's a complete CB. Getting him in the third round is a STEAL. At worst he's going to be a very good nickel (which isn't bad for a 3rd rounder). I think he can be a VERY good CB in the right system, but he also seems to have the tools to move to S, a la Eugene Wilson.

    In short, I'm one of Bradways biggest critics..... and the Jets did well today.


    [b]The Patriots Draft[/b]

    NT Vince Wilfork
    TE Ben Watson
    DE Marquise Hill
    S Guss Scott

    Oh man.... BB giveth with one hand and he giveth the finger with the other.

    [b]Vince Wilfork[/b] is obviously a slam dunk steal. I think he actually wasn't in the Pats draft plans: they never thought he'd slide down to them. With Wilfork the Pats have the makings of a nasty D-Line, and if things break right, maybe one of the best and deepest ever. Suck it, Carolina.

    [b]Ben Watson[/b] caused a lot of commotion but let me emphasize: this is a good pick.... a daring pick, perhaps a strange one, but a good one. Watson has DISGUSTING measurables (4.44 forty time, 35 reps at 225, 40 on the wonderlich....), and he is by most accounts a good blocker. He will push Dan Graham, and offer the Pats the opportunity for some nasty goal line formations (remember, the red zone was a problem) to complement their already nasty spread formations. Standard two TE formations will offer plenty of blockers for Dillon AND plenty of receivers for Brady.

    If Watson fails.... well, to be completely honest with Wilfork and Dillon in the fold, this was a "bonus pick". If he fails, the Pats will survive. If he succeeds, the potential is staggering.


    [b]Marquise Hill[/b] This, [i]this[/i] is the pick that has Pats fans perplexed and mystified.... We all like Hill, and LSU is the Pats minor league affiliate.... but with Wilfork and Traylor to man the nose, we still had Warren, Seymour, Bailey (just acquired), and Jarvis Green at DE.

    This could be a sign that BB is not pleased with the development of Warren.... or it could be a sign that he just wants to build the baddest *ss DL out there.

    Hard to say. We're pretty perplexed, and some of us are frustrated, because we saw dangerously thin OL and DB depth. This pick may also reflect a certain degree of confidence (arrogance?) on BB's part that he can unearth more Dan Koppen's and more Asante Samuels.

    [b]Guss Scott[/b], I know nothing about him. I was over at a friends house at that point. Frankly, I've never heard of him.

    EDIT: the profiles I've found make it sound as if he's a guy with good instincts and measurables who needs a little coaching. Very good "in the box", definitely an SS, not an FS. Some coverage weaknesses. Sounds like a guy BB hopes to groom for a few years as the long term replacement for Harrison, if everything works out.

  2. #2
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by RichardSeymour[/i]@Apr 24 2004, 11:59 PM
    [b] [b]Marquise Hill[/b] This, [i]this[/i] is the pick that has Pats fans perplexed and mystified.... We all like Hill, and LSU is the Pats minor league affiliate.... but with Wilfork and Traylor to man the nose, we still had Warren, Seymour, Bailey (just acquired), and Jarvis Green at DE.

    This could be a sign that BB is not pleased with the development of Warren.... or it could be a sign that he just wants to build the baddest *ss DL out there.

    Hard to say. We're pretty perplexed, and some of us are frustrated, because we saw dangerously thin OL and DB depth. This pick may also reflect a certain degree of confidence (arrogance?) on BB's part that he can unearth more Dan Koppen's and more Asante Samuels. [/b][/quote]
    Seymour the Marquise Hill pick says two things.

    1) Say Bye-Bye to the 3-4 alignment. The 3-4 really doesn't work in today's game. Teams that use it are trying to patch a hole by substituting an extra LB

    2) A number of scouts project Hill as a tackle so the player this selection really damns is Dan Klecko. Which should come as no surprise. The only place you will see Dan used this year is as a running back on gadget plays.

    Overall you guys had a very good day yourselves

  3. #3
    Not that he had much shot at being a DLman before, but Klecko really only has three possible long term roles on the team.....

    1) Fullback. And I mean full time. It's fun having him as a gadget fullback, but if he's going to stick, trying to become a fulltime fullback is one option.

    2) 3rd down DLman. Don't dicount this possibility. Against the pass Klecko is a load, and there IS a role for a 3rd down pass rush specialist.

    3) ILB. It'd be a severe move, but it's possible.

    Though to be honest, there's a decent chance that Klecko's days in a Pats uni are numbered.

    I agree that the Marquise Hill pick suggest a move to the 4-3, but I would disagree that "the 3-4 doesn't really work in todays game". Last years super bowl winning NE Pats say otherwise.

  4. #4
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    It's nice to see you be objective with The Jets picks. You usually are objective RS.

    Derrick Strait was a steal in the third round. He may not have blazing speed or amazing leaping ability but this guy was the best CB in college. The Thorpe award and Nagurski award prove it.

    He didn't project as highly to the pros as the other corner prospects because he didn't have stand out physical skills.

    Strait is supposedly a big time leader and works very hard and has been called a coach on the field by Bob Stoops.

    Strait and Vilma have alot of the same leadership and work ethic traits. It helps when you have rookies that are self motivators and leaders. Guys who love to practice and get better. These two players have been acting like pros for 4 years and they just became pros today.

    As far as The Pats picks go on day one. Wilfork was a great pick and I was so shocked that he and Udeze slid so far. Minnesota is coming fast people, They could be representing The NFC next year in the big game.

    Anyway back to The Pats, Watson is a freak. Reminds me so much of Johnny Mitchell physically. Mitchell had the same type of workout numbers and body. I loved Watson and I had him going late first round for months now. It's hard to ignore the physical talent. I hope that he has it mentally to become a good pro.

    The way, I see The picks of Watson, Hill, Scott etc is that The Pats love stockpiling at positions and they love having depth. That's why they survive injuries. They have so many interchangeable parts.

    When you have the success that New England has had, As a fan, You have complete faith in the front office, So even if you take a guy you don't know or hate, You give them the benefit of doubt.

    The Pats are such a deep team and they use so many different players that really, this draft is just about replacing the rotation guys who left through free agency.

    Wilfork and Traylor will replaced Teddy Washington.

    Corey Dillon has replaced Antowain Smith.

    A year from now, someone will have to replace Ty Law and The Pats defense needs to get younger but that's a conversation for down the line.

  5. #5
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    I must say that I was completely in shock when Wilfork was sitting there at 21. I wondered why such breaks never seem to come to the New York Jets or their long suffering fans, then the third round rolled around.

    Anyway, Seymour, as I watched the draft, I couldn't help but wonder what was going on in the mind of a Pats fan? How did you feel when Steven Jackson was still on the board at 21? Any regret in trading for Cory the Crybaby?

  6. #6
    [quote][i]Originally posted by The Troll[/i]@Apr 25 2004, 12:41 AM
    [b] I must say that I was completely in shock when Wilfork was sitting there at 21. I wondered why such breaks never seem to come to the New York Jets or their long suffering fans, then the third round rolled around.

    Anyway, Seymour, as I watched the draft, I couldn't help but wonder what was going on in the mind of a Pats fan? How did you feel when Steven Jackson was still on the board at 21? Any regret in trading for Cory the Crybaby? [/b][/quote]
    Not with Wilfork. Hell, we could have had a GAPING hole at RB and I still would have wanted Wilfork over Jackson at 21. Seriously.

    In the short run, Dillon>Jackson. In the long run Wilfork>Jackson. I'm comfortable.

  7. #7
    RS, read my lips ... Marquise Hill was a steal

    This player has an enormous upside

    Wilfork was awesome value at 21 as well

    I would be lying through me teeth if I didn't admit that the prospect of what your D-Line can become is scary

  8. #8
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham[/i]@Apr 25 2004, 01:16 AM
    [b] RS, read my lips ... Marquise Hill was a steal

    This player has an enormous upside

    Wilfork was awesome value at 21 as well

    I would be lying through me teeth if I didn't admit that the prospect of what your D-Line can become is scary [/b][/quote]
    Yeah, I don't think any Pats fan doubted the value of Hill where we got him, or even necissarily disputed that he was BAP..... we were just shocked that with several good DBs still on the board BB elected to keep stocking the DL larder.

    But yes, there is the potential for a SERIOUSLY dominant DL if things go right.

  9. #9
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by RichardSeymour[/i]@Apr 25 2004, 12:18 AM
    [b] I agree that the Marquise Hill pick suggest a move to the 4-3, but I would disagree that "the 3-4 doesn't really work in todays game". Last years super bowl winning NE Pats say otherwise. [/b][/quote]
    Seymour the 3-4 has one inherant weakness. Good teams can run up the middle on it. It takes time and patience but you can break it if you persever. Mumbles was clever enough last year to employ a 4-3 alignment just enough to keep opposing offenses honest. The Dline of the better 4-3 can shutdown the run up the middle thus eliminating the need for the big MLB.

    Why is elminating the run stopping MLB so important you ask ? Because the key in today's defense is to stop the West Coast Offense. If you can replace the MLB with a Nickel Back on more than a regular basis the defense gains a tremendous weapon. More DBs means receivers have to run more complex routes which takes additional time and puts more heat on the QB. The WCO relies on the ability of the receivers to get open quickly. From my vantage point this is the perfect strategy to blow up the WCO.

    As I have stated else where I am really leary of Jonathan Vilma's lack of weight. I dread the thought of Ricky Williams running straight at him unimpeaded with a head of steam. If the interior DLine plays up to his ability this should not be a problem. Vilma does have four very important attributes. His speed, his pass defense skills, his smarts and leadership ability. It appears to me that Edwards, Bradway and Henderson drafted him to be a Supersized Defensive Back than a genuine LB. I see what they are trying to accomplish. And while I think it has a good chance to work it has a significant risk factor. This is what leads me to believe that the Vilma Pick is the most critical pick the Jets have made in the last 4 years. It will make or break Herman Edwards.

    But getting back to my main point the current trends in the NFL will shift the defensive responsibilities from Linebackers to defensive backs. The 3-4 will dry up over the next two seasons and the 4-3 will become the dominant alignment. I would not be surprised to see the Buddy Ryan 4-2-5 Defense resurface some time in the next two seasons.

    That's just my take on things.

  10. #10
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    RE: Guss Scott

    He was the one who gave up the winning TD in the FSU game last year because he forgot to turn around and look for the ball in the end zone. P.K. Sam burned him all day and other than the refs, he was the one who blew the game for us that day. Still a little bitter so hopefully Moss and McCariens will do the same to him come next season, if he even sees the field. Third round was way to high for Scott.

  11. #11
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham[/i]@Apr 25 2004, 01:16 AM
    [b] RS, read my lips ... Marquise Hill was a steal

    This player has an enormous upside

    Wilfork was awesome value at 21 as well

    I would be lying through me teeth if I didn't admit that the prospect of what your D-Line can become is scary [/b][/quote]
    Just saw the highlight film of Hill..... omfg.

    It was only about 25 seconds of highlights, and that ain't worth much, but for those 25 secs D******MN.

    He reminds me (and you should know that this is the kind of praise I use sparingly) of Richard Seymour. Tall, rangy, amazingly slim frame for a 300 lber. He's slow for a 4-3 DE, presumably thats why he dropped, but he's FAST for a 4-3 DT/3-4 DE type..... great quickness.....

    He'll probably take some work but the upside potential here could be ginormous.

    [b]Hill/Bailey-----Wilfork/Warren-----Seymour/Green[/b]

    Could be an AMAZING long term 3-4 DL rotation.

    Alternatively

    [b]Hill---Warren---Wilfork---Seymour[/b]

    Could be a disgustingly good 4-3, with all 4 guys at or over 300 lbs, three of em 6'6, and the fourth guy being Wilfork....

    It's getting harder and harder to have concerns about the first two rounds for the Pats.





    Guss Scott is another story..... Scott is a quintessential IBBWT pick (in BB we trust)..... he looks like a reach..... has some intriguing positives but some very concerning negatives.

  12. #12
    [quote][i]Originally posted by WestCoastMole[/i]@Apr 25 2004, 05:35 AM
    [b] Seymour the 3-4 has one inherant weakness. Good teams can run up the middle on it. It takes time and patience but you can break it if you persever. [b]Mumbles was clever enough last year to employ a 4-3 alignment just enough to keep opposing offenses honest.[/b] The Dline of the better 4-3 can shutdown the run up the middle thus eliminating the need for the big MLB.

    Why is elminating the run stopping MLB so important you ask ? Because the key in today's defense is to stop the West Coast Offense. If you can replace the MLB with a Nickel Back on more than a regular basis the defense gains a tremendous weapon. More DBs means receivers have to run more complex routes which takes additional time and puts more heat on the QB. The WCO relies on the ability of the receivers to get open quickly. From my vantage point this is the perfect strategy to blow up the WCO.

    As I have stated else where I am really leary of Jonathan Vilma's lack of weight. I dread the thought of Ricky Williams running straight at him unimpeaded with a head of steam. If the interior DLine plays up to his ability this should not be a problem. Vilma does have four very important attributes. His speed, his pass defense skills, his smarts and leadership ability. It appears to me that Edwards, Bradway and Henderson drafted him to be a Supersized Defensive Back than a genuine LB. I see what they are trying to accomplish. And while I think it has a good chance to work it has a significant risk factor. This is what leads me to believe that the Vilma Pick is the most critical pick the Jets have made in the last 4 years. It will make or break Herman Edwards.

    But getting back to my main point the current trends in the NFL will shift the defensive responsibilities from Linebackers to defensive backs. The 3-4 will dry up over the next two seasons and the 4-3 will become the dominant alignment. I would not be surprised to see the Buddy Ryan 4-2-5 Defense resurface some time in the next two seasons.

    That's just my take on things. [/b][/quote]
    WCM - You hit the nail right on the head. Versatility. If the Patriots have McGinest, Seymour, Wilfork, Green on the line what are they in? Are they in 4-3 with Seymour and Wilfork as DTs and McGinest at DE? Or 3-4 with McGinest at OLB? That is the beauty of Belichick's defense. First, it is a defense that only a couple of teams play, Pittsburgh is the only other team that plays it a majority of the time. So oppossing teams will only have a few days to practice it and get a grasp of it. Second, all the things Belichick will throw at the QB makes it that much harder to read.

    The 3-4 has largely been out of fashion for the past 20 years, but like the run and shoot, it will continue to exist in some form. As long as their are deciphiles of Par$ells and Belichcik in the league, there will be the 3-4. Maybe, not as a primary defense, but in some form.

  13. #13
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    RS



    Where does that leave last years sleeper....Tully Banta-Cain?


    Thought he was a steal...now looks like he had to go?


    Pats have 2 4ths......I look for them to trade out.....too many picks!!

  14. #14
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    I like the Pats first pick but after that what is Bellychick smokin'? Another TE? What does that make 18 in the last couple of years? ANd that guy from LSU won't start or play for another four years?

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by usafsuperman[/i]@Apr 25 2004, 09:00 AM
    [b] I like the Pats first pick but after that what is Bellychick smokin'? Another TE? What does that make 18 in the last couple of years? ANd that guy from LSU won't start or play for another four years? [/b][/quote]
    They have drafted a TE in the first round the past 2 years. My theory is Fauria will be a FA next year so they're just bringing someone in to replace him. Either that or they plan on moving Graham who is a ridiculously good blocker to some sort of H back role where he is in the backfield. Either way, Watson seems to be a very good player, I just really didn't expect it so I was caught off guard.

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    :ph34r: I am estatic that we got derrick staight in the 3rd round....this kid will see playing time as a rookie...you don't get the nations top DB award at the Univ of Oklahoma for nothing.....I am very very pleased with the Jets picks yesterday.

    The Patriots also had a fine draft....Gus Scott will do well for you guys.

  17. #17
    Actually AF weeny, that brings the count to 6 TEs. ;)

    Fauria, much to Garbanza's detriment is gone after this season (i.e. last year of contract). Watson a very good blocker allows the Patriots to go 2 TE in the redzone and pound the ball with Dillon. Now, when teams put 8 in the box, Brady can play action and hit a TE for a TD.

  18. #18
    [quote][i]Originally posted by JonEJet[/i]@Apr 25 2004, 09:57 AM
    [b] RS



    Where does that leave last years sleeper....Tully Banta-Cain?


    Thought he was a steal...now looks like he had to go?


    Pats have 2 4ths......I look for them to trade out.....too many picks!! [/b][/quote]
    btw, I keep calling Marquis Hill, "Marquis Walker"..... they are the same guy when I post, OK?

    TBC is, VERY clearly, a DE to LB conversion project.

    These picks in no way reflect on him because he's competing with the LBS not the DEs.

    Most of Pats Nation feels that he's a steal, but you never know.... maybe he won't make it to the roster of 53, this is such a stacked team....

    But I'm pretty sure he will. He looked good on ST last year, and unlike some of the other STers he has potential to be a good future contributor on defense.

  19. #19
    You forgot to mention our 2nd round pick....Justin McCaerins ;)

  20. #20
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    :ph34r: wilfork was a great pick but did u guys really need a TE and I think Gus Scott is a good player but you could have gotten a better DB.

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