Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 43

Thread: Why can't Curtis & Lamont

  1. #21
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,092
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jetswin[/i]@May 3 2004, 01:46 PM
    [b] read Flow's post everyone...it was a 20million hit over two seasons...

    Curtis had to be extended, add to the fact that he is still a very good back, what's the beef? Lamont is pissed, well it's Herm's job to get him involved, but not at the cost of the teams finances. [/b][/quote]
    $20 mil was the cost to let Martin play out his original ridiculous contract. $10 mil was the approximate hit of cutting him outright.

    While signing Curtis Martin to a new contract was the best way to defer the cap hit from his original contract, the FO still should have held out for a better deal than the extension they agreed to. The new contract was not in the best interest of the team.

  2. #22
    Board Moderator
    Jets Insider VIP
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Westchester Co.
    Posts
    37,855
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by James Hasty+May 3 2004, 01:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (James Hasty @ May 3 2004, 01:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--jetswin[/i]@May 3 2004, 01:46 PM
    [b] read Flow&#39;s post everyone...it was a 20million hit over two seasons...

    Curtis had to be extended, add to the fact that he is still a very good back, what&#39;s the beef? Lamont is pissed, well it&#39;s Herm&#39;s job to get him involved, but not at the cost of the teams finances. [/b][/quote]
    &#036;20 mil was the cost to let Martin play out his original ridiculous contract. &#036;10 mil was the approximate hit of cutting him outright.

    While signing Curtis Martin to a new contract was the best way to defer the cap hit from his original contract, the FO still should have held out for a better deal than the extension they agreed to. The new contract was not in the best interest of the team. [/b][/quote]
    JH, the teams options were limited...cut, play, renegotiate...there was no holding out for the team. Besidesm wasn&#39;t this Lamont&#39;s rookie year? When was the renegotiation done, before the draft or after, did we know how good Lamont was then, do we know how good he is now for that matter.

  3. #23
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,092
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jetswin+May 3 2004, 02:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (jetswin @ May 3 2004, 02:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -James Hasty@May 3 2004, 01:54 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--jetswin[/i]@May 3 2004, 01:46 PM
    [b] read Flow&#39;s post everyone...it was a 20million hit over two seasons...

    Curtis had to be extended, add to the fact that he is still a very good back, what&#39;s the beef? Lamont is pissed, well it&#39;s Herm&#39;s job to get him involved, but not at the cost of the teams finances. [/b][/quote]
    &#036;20 mil was the cost to let Martin play out his original ridiculous contract. &#036;10 mil was the approximate hit of cutting him outright.

    While signing Curtis Martin to a new contract was the best way to defer the cap hit from his original contract, the FO still should have held out for a better deal than the extension they agreed to. The new contract was not in the best interest of the team. [/b][/quote]
    JH, the teams options were limited...cut, play, renegotiate...there was no holding out for the team. Besidesm wasn&#39;t this Lamont&#39;s rookie year? When was the renegotiation done, before the draft or after, did we know how good Lamont was then, do we know how good he is now for that matter. [/b][/quote]
    Lamont had one season under his belt at the time.

    The bottom line on the new contract is this. Next year (2005) Curtis Martin will have a base salary of &#036; 6 mil. We already lost our best WR (Coles) and may lose more star players within the next year if Martin isn&#39;t cut, traded, or restructured. Until we see how the team plays this year and what we are able to do to retain our players (Abe, Ellis, Pennington, etc.) we will not see the true cost of Martin&#39;s contract.

    Martin&#39;s contract was a mistake. How big a mistake will not be known until we see what the costs are in terms of the team&#39;s performance over the next couple years.

  4. #24
    Hall Of Fame
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Posts
    11,462
    Post Thanks / Like
    Besides extending the cap hit,

    Do you really wanna know what got Curtis Martin his extension?

    I&#39;ll tell you all

    Curtis Martin in 2001, Was 2nd in The NFL in rushing. Behind only Priest Holmes.

    Martin finished with 1,513 yards rushing. 4.5 yards a run and 10 tds. That&#39;s what got him a new deal.

    There was no way that The Jets were cutting him or trading him after that kind of season. You&#39;d have to be a complete MORON to cut him after that season.

    Martin&#39;s 2002 season was nowhere near as good but he did play hurt and finished the season with 1,400 all purpose yards, 4.2 yards a carry and 7 tds

    Last year, Martin had 1,308 yards rushing and 260 receiving yards. Martin was very good down the stretch, ran really well against Pittsburgh, New England and Miami.

    I understand the support for Lamont Jordan and I understand thinking about the future but Curtis Martin is not Mo Lewis. He&#39;s not a fading veteran who is a cancer in the locker room.

  5. #25
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,092
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by YoungJetsFan[/i]@May 3 2004, 02:10 PM
    [b] There was no way that The Jets were cutting him or trading him after that kind of season. You&#39;d have to be a complete MORON to cut him after that season. [/b][/quote]
    You would have to be an equally huge moron not to give Vinny Testaverde a huge extension after 1998.

    While the fans would scream bloody murder, teams with cap discipline will come out on top.

  6. #26
    Board Moderator
    Jets Insider VIP
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Westchester Co.
    Posts
    37,855
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by James Hasty+May 3 2004, 02:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (James Hasty @ May 3 2004, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -jetswin@May 3 2004, 02:00 PM
    [b] [quote]Originally posted by -James Hasty@May 3 2004, 01:54 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--jetswin[/i]@May 3 2004, 01:46 PM
    [b] read Flow&#39;s post everyone...it was a 20million hit over two seasons...

    Curtis had to be extended, add to the fact that he is still a very good back, what&#39;s the beef? Lamont is pissed, well it&#39;s Herm&#39;s job to get him involved, but not at the cost of the teams finances. [/b][/quote]
    &#036;20 mil was the cost to let Martin play out his original ridiculous contract. &#036;10 mil was the approximate hit of cutting him outright.

    While signing Curtis Martin to a new contract was the best way to defer the cap hit from his original contract, the FO still should have held out for a better deal than the extension they agreed to. The new contract was not in the best interest of the team. [/b][/quote]
    JH, the teams options were limited...cut, play, renegotiate...there was no holding out for the team. Besidesm wasn&#39;t this Lamont&#39;s rookie year? When was the renegotiation done, before the draft or after, did we know how good Lamont was then, do we know how good he is now for that matter. [/b][/quote]
    Lamont had one season under his belt at the time.

    The bottom line on the new contract is this. Next year (2005) Curtis Martin will have a base salary of &#036; 6 mil. We already lost our best WR (Coles) and may lose more star players within the next year if Martin isn&#39;t cut, traded, or restructured. Until we see how the team plays this year and what we are able to do to retain our players (Abe, Ellis, Pennington, etc.) we will not see the true cost of Martin&#39;s contract.

    Martin&#39;s contract was a mistake. How big a mistake will not be known until we see what the costs are in terms of the team&#39;s performance over the next couple years. [/b][/quote]
    I respectfully disagree. Every team has an expensive player, it&#39;s the nature of game today, ours is Curtis (and Vinnie BTW). These guys become the object of disdain to fans of every team, who don&#39;t want to lose other players. It&#39; a fact of the cap, be glad that our money is tied up in a very good player. I&#39;m done lamenting players that leave, I really feel there isn&#39;t much we can do about it if we want to field a team.

  7. #27
    Hall Of Fame
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Posts
    11,462
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by James Hasty+May 3 2004, 06:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (James Hasty @ May 3 2004, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--YoungJetsFan[/i]@May 3 2004, 02:10 PM
    [b] There was no way that The Jets were cutting him or trading him after that kind of season. You&#39;d have to be a complete MORON to cut him after that season. [/b][/quote]
    You would have to be an equally huge moron not to give Vinny Testaverde a huge extension after 1998.

    While the fans would scream bloody murder, teams with cap discipline will come out on top. [/b][/quote]
    That was under Bill Parcells.

    But what do you suggest that Parcells not resign Testaverde after The 98 season. That was the right move. Parcells overpaid but resigning him was the right move.

    What was Parcells going to do? Turn things over to Ray Lucas or Rick Mirer.

    Cap discipline is cool but you also have to keep your best players.

  8. #28
    Hall of Fame
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Posts
    1,600
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by James Hasty+May 3 2004, 12:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (James Hasty @ May 3 2004, 12:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--jetswin[/i]@May 3 2004, 01:46 PM
    [b] read Flow&#39;s post everyone...it was a 20million hit over two seasons...

    Curtis had to be extended, add to the fact that he is still a very good back, what&#39;s the beef? Lamont is pissed, well it&#39;s Herm&#39;s job to get him involved, but not at the cost of the teams finances. [/b][/quote]
    &#036;20 mil was the cost to let Martin play out his original ridiculous contract. &#036;10 mil was the approximate hit of cutting him outright.

    While signing Curtis Martin to a new contract was the best way to defer the cap hit from his original contract, the FO still should have held out for a better deal than the extension they agreed to. The new contract was not in the best interest of the team. [/b][/quote]
    If you read the thread I linked, all of the options are there in plain view. If you&#39;re going to rip the move so vehemently, you MUST have better alternative in place.

    Here&#39;s yours: the FO should&#39;ve "held out" for a better deal. First, when a player is already under contract, it&#39;s the player that has the leverage to hold out, not the FO. Since Curtis knew there was no way he&#39;d get cut, he had the Jets over a barrell. Waiting for CM to accept a better offer wasn&#39;t an option because it was literally a race against the clock - extend Curtis before he counts &#036;9.5M against the books and causes you to decimate your roster. The only compromise was to roll much of the salary owed to Curtis in his next 2 seasons into guaranteed or nearly guaranteed money, so as to avoid cap suicide.

    If you want to revisit your options and determine what would&#39;ve been in the best interest of the team, you&#39;re welcome to take another crack at it. But I&#39;m pretty confident that the more you search for an alternative solution, the more clearly you&#39;ll see that only one existed.

  9. #29
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,092
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by YoungJetsFan+May 3 2004, 02:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (YoungJetsFan @ May 3 2004, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -James Hasty@May 3 2004, 06:13 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--YoungJetsFan[/i]@May 3 2004, 02:10 PM
    [b] There was no way that The Jets were cutting him or trading him after that kind of season. You&#39;d have to be a complete MORON to cut him after that season. [/b][/quote]
    You would have to be an equally huge moron not to give Vinny Testaverde a huge extension after 1998.

    While the fans would scream bloody murder, teams with cap discipline will come out on top. [/b][/quote]
    That was under Bill Parcells.

    But what do you suggest that Parcells not resign Testaverde after The 98 season. That was the right move. Parcells overpaid but resigning him was the right move.

    What was Parcells going to do? Turn things over to Ray Lucas or Rick Mirer. [/b][/quote]
    The biggest problem with Vinny&#39;s contract (aside from Vinny&#39;s perfomance under it) was the length of the contract. Considering Vinny&#39;s age at the time a 3-4 year contract would have made more sense. If Vinny refused to sign a 3-4 year contract (at a the same huge average annual compensation as his existing deal) the right move would have been to let him walk.

    The biggest problem with Martin&#39;s contract is the average compensation per year. Only Marshall Faulk got more at the time (by a narrow margin). The length of Martin&#39;s deal was questionable when his age and the second round selection of Lamont Jordan are factored in.

    Both contracts were done because the management wanted to stay in contention the following year. In both cases the contract was not in the best interest of the team&#39;s future.

  10. #30
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,092
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Flowtrain[/i]@May 3 2004, 02:23 PM
    [b] Here&#39;s yours: the FO should&#39;ve "held out" for a better deal. First, when a player is already under contract, it&#39;s the player that has the leverage to hold out, not the FO. Since Curtis knew there was no way he&#39;d get cut, he had the Jets over a barrell. Waiting for CM to accept a better offer wasn&#39;t an option because it was literally a race against the clock - extend Curtis before he counts &#036;9.5M against the books and causes you to decimate your roster. The only compromise was to roll much of the salary owed to Curtis in his next 2 seasons into guaranteed or nearly guaranteed money, so as to avoid cap suicide.
    [/b][/quote]
    I am not disputing the facts that you have laid out. I do believe that knuckling under to Martin&#39;s demands was a mistake. While I would have attempted to extend Martin on better terms, I would have cut him before giving him the deal he got. While there would have been some short term pain (player cuts, etc.) the young players representing the future of our team would have been kept.

    There were no easy answers but I don&#39;t think our FO made the right one.

  11. #31
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    8,587
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by James Hasty[/i]@May 3 2004, 01:27 PM
    [b] Both contracts were done because the management wanted to stay in contention the following year. In both cases the contract was not in the best interest of the team&#39;s future. [/b][/quote]
    But there was no alternative in Curtis&#39; case. None at all. Even cutting him was impossible.

  12. #32
    Jets Insider VIP
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Naples FL
    Posts
    42,980
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by YoungJetsFan[/i]@May 3 2004, 02:10 PM
    [b]Besides extending the cap hit,

    Do you really wanna know what got Curtis Martin his extension?

    I&#39;ll tell you all

    Curtis Martin in 2001, Was 2nd in The NFL in rushing. Behind only Priest Holmes.

    Martin finished with 1,513 yards rushing. 4.5 yards a run and 10 tds. That&#39;s what got him a new deal.

    There was no way that The Jets were cutting him or trading him after that kind of season. You&#39;d have to be a complete MORON to cut him after that season.

    Martin&#39;s 2002 season was nowhere near as good but he did play hurt and finished the season with 1,400 all purpose yards, 4.2 yards a carry and 7 tds

    Last year, Martin had 1,308 yards rushing and 260 receiving yards. Martin was very good down the stretch, ran really well against Pittsburgh, New England and Miami.

    I understand the support for Lamont Jordan and I understand thinking about the future but Curtis Martin is not Mo Lewis. He&#39;s not a fading veteran who is a cancer in the locker room.[/b][/quote]
    Big Whoop&#33;&#33; As a 3rd round pick in 95 he was number 2 also
    and had 14 TD&#39;s&#33;&#33; The difference is Tuna and all Good Coaches
    give their young backs a shot&#33;&#33; Having 2 great backs is a asset
    to a Team..But Herm won&#39;t give Lamont the chance that Martin had as a
    Rookie..Or a 2nd yr player...Or a 3rd yr player or..... :( And
    who ever said Martin was a Cancer?? Are you receiving Mental
    signals from another Planet?? It makes more sense to you to
    give a 31 yr old Martin 90% of the Carries and let 2nd rd Lamont
    go to a Team next year for nothing&#33;&#33; Oh Yeah..Makes loads of
    sense to me&#33;&#33; Nothing is more thrilling in Football than saying WOW
    Curtis has another 1000+ yd season&#33; :lol:

  13. #33
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    ft. lauderdale
    Posts
    138
    Post Thanks / Like
    Picking the right players and dividing up the salary cap are the two most important jobs a GM has. No one likes to lose a star or one of your best players.

    That being said, knowing when to cut bait (letting a great player walk because of the prohibitive cost) is what separates great GM&#39;s from everyone else.

    No matter how great someone is (this even includes Chad), each player is worth only so much. Once a player makes more than he&#39;s worth, he takes away from the team.

    Ask yourselves this.

    Where does Martins salary rank among RB&#39;S? Is it equal to where his talent ranks?

    If not, the Jets are at a disadvantage by keeping him&#33;

  14. #34
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    645
    Post Thanks / Like
    BECAUSE HACKETT IS AN INFLEXIBLE IDIOT&#33;
    :[img]http://www.jetsinsider.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'>

  15. #35
    Board Moderator
    Jets Insider VIP
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Westchester Co.
    Posts
    37,855
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by #90[/i]@May 3 2004, 02:40 PM
    [b] BECAUSE HACKETT IS AN INFLEXIBLE IDIOT&#33;
    :&#60;&#33;--emo&Angry:--&#62;[img]http://www.jetsinsider.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif[/img]&#60;&#33;--endemo--&#62; [/b][/quote]
    my guess is this post is getting back to the point of the thread :lol:

    agreed&#33; B)

  16. #36
    All League
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Blue Ridge Mtns. of Virginia
    Posts
    2,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    i don&#39;t understand why people think Lamont is go great.

    to me, he goes down too easily, doesn&#39;t show great open field moves, and fumbles too much.

    hopefully, i&#39;m wrong, and just not seeing what the rest of you see. or maybe he just hasn&#39;t gotten enough work to show his true potential yet. but at this point, he&#39;s not a guy i have confidence in turning our entire ground game over to.

  17. #37
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,979
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by gaffneycatch[/i]@May 3 2004, 02:56 PM
    [b] i don&#39;t understand why people think Lamont is go great.

    to me, he goes down too easily, doesn&#39;t show great open field moves, and fumbles too much.

    hopefully, i&#39;m wrong, and just not seeing what the rest of you see. or maybe he just hasn&#39;t gotten enough work to show his true potential yet. but at this point, he&#39;s not a guy i have confidence in turning our entire ground game over to. [/b][/quote]
    You can tell all that from the 3 times he&#39;s actually carried the ball? Impressive.

  18. #38
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,457
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by gaffneycatch[/i]@May 3 2004, 06:56 PM
    [b] i don&#39;t understand why people think Lamont is go great.

    to me, he goes down too easily, doesn&#39;t show great open field moves, and fumbles too much.

    hopefully, i&#39;m wrong, and just not seeing what the rest of you see. or maybe he just hasn&#39;t gotten enough work to show his true potential yet. but at this point, he&#39;s not a guy i have confidence in turning our entire ground game over to. [/b][/quote]
    Then why keep him?

    Why spend a second round pick on him?

    Why not trade him?

    The time is going to come when a decision is going to have to be made on him and the Jets look like they will have no clue on what he really can do.

  19. #39
    Jets Insider VIP
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Naples FL
    Posts
    42,980
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by gaffneycatch[/i]@May 3 2004, 02:56 PM
    [b]i don&#39;t understand why people think Lamont is go great.

    to me, he goes down too easily, doesn&#39;t show great open field moves, and fumbles too much.

    hopefully, i&#39;m wrong, and just not seeing what the rest of you see. or maybe he just hasn&#39;t gotten enough work to show his true potential yet. but at this point, he&#39;s not a guy i have confidence in turning our entire ground game over to.[/b][/quote]
    Let me express my feeling on the RB situation..If a Team
    Drafts a Back with their 2nd pick they better Dam give him
    a Chance to play&#33;&#33; 3rd round pick Martin got 368 tries as a
    Rookie..Also keep in mind Football is a business..If you want
    to keep the Machine running well you always look for optimum
    performance for the lowest price&#33; I&#39;m starting to wonder if the
    FO was thinking that they would deal Martin before they
    gave him that crazy contract, then changed their mind..It
    just makes no sense to draft a back with a second pick and
    NEVER give him a Fair chance..If any of you Guys can tell me
    of this ever happening anywhere please advise me.. <_<
    And please don&#39;t say Leroy Kelly sat behind Jim Brown for
    a few years he was a 8th rd pick&#33;&#33; <_<

  20. #40
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    St. Auggie, FL
    Posts
    1,106
    Post Thanks / Like
    Back to the original question........ yes, I&#39;ve been hoping they would use them like that scenario for 2-3 years now :rolleyes:

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us