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Thread: A Question on Islam

  1. #21
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    we have enough bush/cheney bashing threads going already.

    lets keep this one to Islam bashing shall we???

  2. #22
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    Buffboy, I recall that shortly after 9-11 you posed the question:

    If you had a button you could push, that would kill every muslim on the planet, would you push it?

  3. #23
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    Moderate Islam-we only want to kill the Jews-for now.

    Memo from a dream-


    Arab Street Erupts in Rage Over Beheading Video
    (2004-05-11) -- The so-called 'Arab Street' erupted in rage and grief today, as devoted Muslims crowded into public squares by the hundreds of thousands, in dozens of cities, to denounce the brutal videotaped beheading of American Nicholas Berg by Muslim extremists affiliated with Al Qaeda.

    "This is an outrageous, disgusting and obscene act of evil done in the name of our peaceful religion and in our own backyard," said one unnamed Muslim cleric in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. "We mourn with Mr. Berg's family at this horrible loss. We renounce not only this act of violence, but all acts of terror."

    The governments of all Arab League nations made a joint statement condemning the slaughter of Mr. Berg, and committing $100 billion toward the elimination of Al Qaeda and other Muslim terror groups.

    "We pledge money, troops and intelligence resources in an all-out effort to end this scourge," the Arab league statement declared. "We apologize for our past failures to rein-in or arrest extremists in our ranks. As of today, we are turning the tables on the terrorists. Now, it's their turn to be afraid."

  4. #24
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    Ah another hate post about Muslims and Arab Americans.

    You guys hide behind your keyboard and talk a bunch of crap about people who you know nothing about. You think we all fit the geeky classroom nerd stereotype or 7-11-guy crap. Guess again!!!!!

    You want the moderate Muslims and the Arab Americans to hold demonstrations to speak out against the scum that are using the religion to commit terror. First of all when did any of you ever listen to anyone’s opinion other than your own ignorant opinion and media manifested bigotry. All of the terrorists who flew into the Towers were illegal aliens. Get over it they outsmarted the CIA, the FBI and the INS. Not to mention their boss was a guy recruited by the self-proclaimed commander in chief's dear old dad. Furthermore, the bin Laden family has had monetary ties to the White House God Squader and his family for decades.

    You lost loved ones on that day like myself but perhaps you ought to learn from it and move on. This country has turned into a "what about me bull**** society" and all of you whining pussies are proof. You want to do something good for the loved ones lost on that day then take a good look at yourselves. What have you done to better your community? What have you done to help your fellow man regardless of his faith? Instead you sorry excuses cling to the media and politics and still don't get it.

    First of all most of you believe that Jihad means holy war. It does not. It never did. The word Jihad means to struggle. Yet the media has taken a word and brainwashed the many uninformed viewers like yourselves into believing a myth. The masses over there want the same freedoms we have yet our leadership to this day would rather put in power puppet scumbags and to deny those people of the same freedoms that we are supposedly all about. Some of those leaders are similar to the Taliban!

    As far as religion is concerned. From the very beginning of religious history, men and women have abused the power of their God and bastardized religion and its texts for their own benefit. That would include the Pope, Rabbi's, Imam's etc.

    Evil Pope = Inquisition / Holocaust = Sexual molestation of kids

    Evil Rabbi = Caephus trying Jesus and delivering him to Pilate for Murder

    Evil Imam= The scumbags who hid behind Islam to offer a place for Alquaeda to train and concoct their terror strategies.

    Evil Southern Protestant Pastor = slavery = racism

    Now let's see are all Catholics child molesters? The answer is no!!! Were all Catholics supportive of the inquisition and the holocaust? The answer is no!!!

    Are all Jews responsible for the death of Christ? The answer is no!!!

    Are all Muslims and Arabs responsible for the actions of the Taliban, Hussein, and Bin Laden to name a few? The answer is no!!!!!!!!!

    Are all southern Protestants responsible for the disparity in income and education for blacks in this country? The answer is no they are not?

    Instead of fixating on the news and on celebrities. Perhaps you ought to fixate on how you can help your local fire department, your local schools, and your local police department. If you want to go catch Alquaeda then take some coursework in Arabic and Islam and see if you are smart enough to work in an anti-terror capacity for the government. Pat Tillman died in Afghanistan and most of you still don't get it

  5. #25
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    This is serious, I'm not saying this in jest...

    Do you think it's inbreeding? That's why arabs are so screwed up?

  6. #26
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jetman67[/i]@May 12 2004, 04:47 PM
    [b] If the war were for oil, then why do the gas prices keep rising?? [/b][/quote]
    The war in Iraq is about propping up oil prices!!!!!!!!!!

    Coincidentally the scumbag Saudi's are trying to increase production so oil prices can stabilize till the election then trade in that SUV.

  7. #27
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    I know enough that a dear friend went to work some fine Tuesday morning in September, and never came back. There Saturday, hanging at a bachelor party. Didn't make it to the wedding the follwoing Saturday.

    Same with my best friend in 6th grade..

    Same with a guy I played peewee with..

    Same with more neighbors than I care to count...

    And all we ever get from you guys is "yes, but the Jews, this isn't really Islam, you don't know what we're about, it's about peace and submission, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH"

    I know Muslims come here and don't bother trying to assimilate. In the words of Axel Rose, you guys want to set up your own Mini-Iran here. There's going to come a point when we won't be able to ignore this stupidity mascarading as a philosophy. I've read the Koran. Seems like anytime Mohammed got pissed at a tribe (and especially Jewish tribes), time to say Allah told him to break out a can of serious medieval whoop ass on'em, behead the men and divvy up the womenfolk and children.That is, when he wasn't coopting Arab folk customs like worshiping that rock in Mecca.

    And with all due respect, you don't know me, my family, or the things we've done in many of the exact areas you cite.

    Asking as dark and empty culture as Islam to grow a sense of humor is a waste of time. We're all supposed to accept and conform to Islam uncritically. NO QUESTIONS ALLOWED, right? As to every other Western religious group you mention, those wrongs have at least been addressed, discussed, exposed and corrected, even if it's taken a while. None are perfect, since they have human beings involved. And there will be problems in the future. When we get such a concession from the "Religion of Peace" and it's memebers, let us all know.

    Again, get yourself a real vocabulary without curse words. Almost everything else you type is incomprehensible gibberish.

  8. #28
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by outsider+May 13 2004, 08:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (outsider @ May 13 2004, 08:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--jetman67[/i]@May 12 2004, 04:47 PM
    [b] If the war were for oil, then why do the gas prices keep rising?? [/b][/quote]
    The war in Iraq is about propping up oil prices&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

    Coincidentally the scumbag Saudi&#39;s are trying to increase production so oil prices can stabilize till the election then trade in that SUV. [/b][/quote]
    The price has nothing to do with the war, if it did, the price would be going down. It&#39;s supply and demand, pure capitalism, plain and simple.

    China&#39;s demand has gone up, therefore the price has gone up.

  9. #29
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    Outsider - you&#39;re all over the place with your last post. What is your point?

    You seem to have ad hominen arguments against all types of people, EXCEPT MUSLIMS. Muslims are consistenty the one group that escapes your diatribes. Jews get it the worst from you, consistently. You are Muslim, if my understaing is accurate.

    How do you think that looks? Honestly, I am not trying to be argumentative and don&#39;t think you are a fool and you know I don&#39;t bash muslims. I am just saying, if I was Jewish and was bashing Muslims, you&#39;d be calling me a racist....

    Also - your line about "when would you ignorant fools listen to anyone else anyway" is such a cop-out. You completely avoid the question of why so-called "moderate" Muslims NEVER denounce terrorism, even though we are constantly told that Islam is a religion of peace and that terrorists have "hi-jacked" Islam for their own perverse ends. You talk about how they outsmarted the CIA, etc and how OBL was trained by the USA during Afghanistan&#39;s struggle with the USSR. We know this already and it has nothing at all to do with the question you avoided answering. OBL&#39;s family is huge (he&#39;s one of 50 children) and many of his relatives have legitimate business interests with many western organizations. You cling to these cliches about how we "gave" Saddam this or that, or whatever, and ALL of your "conspirscy" theories and "facts" coincidentally seem to put the USA and Israel in a bad light, and excuse virtually EVERYTHING ANY MUSLIM HAS EVER DONE. Honestly, you bend over backwards with unsupported allegations that make Saddam and OBL seem like victims, or better yet, completely justified 100% in their actions.

    You are telling me, in all honesty, that the fact that you are Muslim has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with your views? Most people are honest enough to admit their biases. I fully admit that I am a conservative, Irish-Catholic American. It&#39;s my background, and it influences my views...it is folly to think otherwise, no matter how hard I try to remain objective.

    Whatever good points or contrarian views that you may legitimately bring up get completely lost in the hurricane of your constant, relentless and increasingly-fantastic screeds that are always anti-America and Israel. You rationalize everything that Muslims do...9-11, Daniel Pearl, the USS Cole, Saddam&#39;s murderous actions towards the Kurds, Berg, their treatment of women, etc.

    And your "proof" consistents of cliches about the 80&#39;s. I am sure Muslims would have ever so happy had we just let the USSR take over tons of their land. They would have cried "racists&#33;" because we waged war to save white, Christian Europeans and Jews in WWII, but didn&#39;t do anything to help arabs from conquest. So, we are forced to choose between intervening with our military on their behalf, which would get us called "imperialists" or "colonists" or we can decide to support someone who was there, ready, willing and able to fight (the mujhadeen) and now, 20years later we are raked over the coals for that, too. What should we have done, boss? We fought wars in the 40&#39;s, 50&#39;s, 60&#39;s and 70&#39;s, all for the benefit of other countries that were threatened by communism or fascism. We have intervened on behalf of Muslims MANY times since then. Sometimes we are forced to make choices between Bad Choice A and Bad Choice B. But YOU smugly sit back on a keyboard 20 years later lecturing us about volunteering at a f*cking fire department?&#33; Put that sh*t on toast&#33;

    How do you feel about what your righteously indignant arab muslims are doing in the Sudan, pal? Sorry - is that a "smear" against Muslims?

    Your "America is satan" crap is what a child does. A child looks around at his life and blames everyone else for it&#39;s condition. Muslims seem to do this, IMO. They blame Zionism, or the West or whatever. The truth is they are far, far behind the rest of the world. Other countries are catching up. Otyher countries have moved toward representative , tolerant governments and free markets. Other countries have rising standads of living. Until the arabs in the ME look inward and take reposnsbility for their lot in life, they will never advance. It&#39;s so EASY to blame the west and to say things like "the USA props up this guy or that guy." We get ripped for proping up guys, and then ripped when we topple one, like Saddam. You say we support regimes that oppress the masses, yet when we remove one of them, we are "imperialists." Again, it is all nonsense. They act like teenagers. Arabs need to change from within. They need to alter the very structure of their society. India is doing it, even Red China is doing it. Turkey is doing it. Israel did it. The backward, uneducated and religiously righteous arabs of the ME have not. They;d rather entertain thoughts about Jews putting posion in their chewing gum and blaming others, rather than take the difficult and painful steps towards reform. The world is passing them by. It is 100% their fault and you KNOW it. It is just too painful for you and them to admit it.

    The Arabs USED to be one of the most advanced, sophisticated cultures around. Their math and medicine rivaled that of Greece&#39;s. Not anymore....

    hugs &#39;n&#39; kisses,


    5ever

  10. #30
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jet Moses[/i]@May 13 2004, 07:46 AM
    [b] Buffboy, I recall that shortly after 9-11 you posed the question:

    If you had a button you could push, that would kill every muslim on the planet, would you push it? [/b][/quote]
    Moses;
    While I admit that emotion does cloud my judgement from time to time, I don&#39;t think I ever posted anything quite that harsh.

    This is not intended as an Islam bashing thread...it is a legitimate question about the state of moderate Muslims in the ME and here in the U.S.

    BB

    P.S. Since it pertains to this topic...I see that the Saudi&#39;s, UAE, and Jordan have condemned the beheading of Berg.

  11. #31
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    5ever, I made my point perhaps you scanned it too quickly.

    First of all I do have a problem with some Muslims and Arabs as I have discussed my displeasure with Alquaeda, and Saudi Arabia with you and many others in the past. Unfortunately, you and most others on this site continue to ignore my negative remarks towards some in the Arab world. Instead I have been conveniently labeled by many on this board as being solely pro-Muslim and pro-Arab. That is simply untrue&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

    You are part right in your assessment of me. I was raised in a moderate Islamic household. As I grew older I drifted from organized religion as I saw and heard of all kinds of corruption in the Temple and Mosques in NY as well as the words of abuse taking place in the Catholic Churches. IMO no God would allow man to bastardize his name in the way that some men do and get away with it.

    So tell me how does it look? Am I supposed to conceal who I am for the benefit of the individuals who conveniently categorize me and people with my background to satisfy their hapless Patriotic whims? Sorry but that won&#39;t happen&#33; As far as Jews bashing Muslims goes, it happens everyday in the media yet most of you are brainwashed into thinking that all Muslim and Arab AMERICANS are evil and Anti-American along with the other common stereotypes. The opinions on this post about Muslim and Arab AMERICANS are for the most part one-sided opinions based on years of thinking that we are all evil, or strange&#33;

    First of all what do you want me to say. I am sorry for something I had nothing to do with. I lost two friends from college on 9-11. My aunt still goes to counseling because she is severely screwed up from witnessing people in flames jumping from the towers and the horrors she experienced during the evacuation. I suppose you want her apology as well since she actually practices Islam. Or am I supposed to do the obvious and condemn a condemnable act such as 9-11. Like you people want to hear that anyway.

    We agree that WMD were given to Hussein and Alquaeda got trained by CIA. etc. However, was there a plan to solve the problem we created? As far as I am concerned Washington underestimated what was created and despite hints about airline hijackings and Atta and company being tracked we come up empty. Sorry but there are some heads that should be rolling in Washington for failure. Instead, its back to he said she said bull**** and I am supposed to just go along with it for the sake of a blind patriotic cause. 5ever, I assume you live in NY. Do you see anything being done to protect the subways? Don&#39;t you think that is their next target? Especially with all of the recent train bombings and derailments. Oh and I do volunteer work for my community and I work with a lot of veterans. Maybe you should try it before you bash it&#33;

    I NEVER "EXCUSED VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING ANY MUSLIM HAS EVER DONE." Those are your words in quotes. I never made any assertions "that make Saddam and OBL seem like victims, or better yet, completely justified 100% in their actions." Those again are your words in quotes.

    Yes I have biases just like you do. However, my biases have been shaped by my dealings in the professional world as well as reading about the finances of my country, America&#33; So I am supposed to sit back and let someone rant and fabricate one-sided ideas and stories about my culture that are simply not true. Furthermore, you, being Irish - Catholic, ought to be thankful that people like me speak up. Had it not been for people like me you and your family would be living in a hovel and be s**t upon as was the case in previous generations.

    Finally, you are right about much of the Arab world in the ME. They do need to alter the very structure of their society. Some countries such as Turkey and the Arab Emirates have done so. However, Washington supports many of the remaining countries that are still ruled by fascists. You are right the world has passed some of those nations by. Perhaps, you can tell me how is it 100% their fault when you have CIA and American Military empowering fascist Amirs and Fascist Royal families? That is the painful truth that you refuse to handle.

  12. #32
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    Outsider -

    I appreciate your good faith efforts at give and take. I may say strong things, as you do, but I respect you as a smart man (in football topics, as well&#33;).

    I live in Boston, actually, so I don&#39;t know about the subways...but my brother lives in Queens so maybe I should ask him.

    I also take quite a bit of umbrage at the insinuation that I am brainwashed and that you are not, sorry. I never said all Islamic people have to &#39;apologize; for 9-11 and you know that. Yes, perhaps I was very argumentative in some of my characterizations of your thoughts, so I can understan that you would be so towards mine. No problem.

    I just think you always seem to gravitate towards blaming someone other than Muslims. You agree that the Muslims bear responsibility for their cultures and then in your next breath you bring up the USA&#39;s blame. You always qualify your critiques of Muslim activity that you disagree with by saying, "Yes, but..." For instance, "Yes, 9-11 was awful, BUT the US government should really learn to check the signs beforehand with guys like Atta, etc." I was paraphrasing, obviously. If the US made mistakes, which they did, that is a SEPARATE issue from the culpability of the 9-11 perps themselves. Yes, you do acknowledge their culpability, but always seem to immeditaely qualify it with, "But thew US government missed this or that sign."

    I also think it is ironic that had the US been proactive against potential arab muslim terror beforehand, it would involve "profiling" and the detainment of people who, at that time they are being detained, may not have committed any crime. I suspect that you may be among the chorus of people claming that the government cracckdown on arab muslims was further proof of the "brainwashing" we all suffer from.

    So it&#39;s a tough call. I don&#39;t "refuse" to handle anything. You just simply blame the USA instead of look inward. The very nature of many Islamic countries lends itself to despotism. Bitonti and others have always argued that democracy can never flourish in lands where people don&#39;t want it. Saddam will be replaced by another dictator, they say. So arabs blame the US for "propping up" dictators on one hand, and then blame us for removing them on the other. What I think you fail to admit is that if the US didn&#39;t support the House of Saud, some other dictatorship would assume power. Ditto for most lands in that region, with a few exceptions. It matters little which particular group we do business with, and in the cold and painful equations of world politics, often times a known leader, while very very imprefect, is better than a power vaccuum. Civil wars and constant coups are WORSE for the people of the ME than a stable dictatorship...even though BOTH options are horrid. It is the fact of reality and it ALWAYS WILL BE until the arabs reject authoritarian, religious rule, embrace tolerant, free societies and opne, free markets. No one can make that happen for them. No one but themselves is preventing it. You act as if the USA military didn&#39;t support the House of Saud that Saudi Arabia would be some flourishing, free utopia and you KNOW that is simply folly.

    Again, glad to have a chat dude....

  13. #33
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    Europe is being overtaken by Muslims at an alarming rate. Furthermore, they have already shown that they can scare europeans into submission as clearly demonstrated in Spain. France has a clear history of ignoring impending danger before it is too late. It is not a completely radical idea to think that Europe could have a major shift in power within the next 10-20 years.

    Now, with all due respect to Muslims, I can go along with the idea that Islam is not a violent religion (though I do reserve the right to be skeptical at this point). But what is clear and complete truth right now is Muslims have an atrociously poor track record on governing themselves. Almost all of their leaders are corrupt and their public is generally dirt poor. This is the direct cause of constant civil unrest and violent factions. If what you say is true outsider, then these factions are nothing more than well funded cults who have a very easy recruitment base when it comes to the dirt poor public&#39;s psyche to mold and warp. If this is not true, then I can stand to reason that Islam is in fact a violent religion with the purpose of eradicating all non believers. But as I said, for the moment I will dismiss that as false.

    Now, back to the Europe issue. If France its back and allows the Muslims to take control, there will be a huge chunk of Western Europe being controlled by people who have demonstrated absolutely no ability to do so. When you factor in Spain&#39;s current Muslim population, you could stand to reason that at least 30% of Europe as we know it will be run by Muslims. Portugal will be in crisis and quite easy to take over. At this point, England, Germany, and Italy will be at a constant guard and there will be a major standoff for years to come, not unlike the cold war between the US and USSR. ENG, GER, and ITA will never be able to relax their guard and will constantly be building their army and WMD&#39;s to protect themselvs. Muslims France, Spain, and Portugal will reciprocate and furthermore will have the funds and resources to do it having control of those lands.

    But here&#39;s why this scenario is EXTREMELY frightening. Most people on earth have a very healthy fear of death and a determination to protect their families and neighbors from harm. This healthy fear was the main reason why the US and USSR never came to blows. They knew that their battle would kill Millions, if not billions of people and if a WMD was broke out, they could completely anhialate mankind. As much as the US and USSR hated each other, neithr one was ever seriously considering that strategy. This kept us all safe at night. From what I have seen of Muslims, they have absolutely no fear of death. If fact they welcome it if they feel they are doing the work of their god. While every religion feels there is a heaven-like place in the afterlife, most religions members are in no hurry whatsoever to get there. When you have a negotiating table where one side is trying to perpetuate life and the other has no fear of death, and both sides have the means to destoy mankind, that makes for a lethal combination. The side that has a healthy fear of death will either give in or well.....die. There is no negotiating.

    This now eventually would turn towards the US. if ENG/GER/ITA give in because they don&#39;t want to start global destruction, Muslims will have a stronghold on ALL of western Europe. If western Europe becomes one nation united, it becomes a major threat to the United States. Especially if it is governed by these same people who have demonstrated zero capability to govern themselves.

    This is all hypothetical I realize, but it is not impossible. And in fact, it is dreadfully possible.

  14. #34
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Buffboy+May 13 2004, 09:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Buffboy @ May 13 2004, 09:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jet Moses[/i]@May 13 2004, 07:46 AM
    [b] Buffboy, I recall that shortly after 9-11 you posed the question:

    If you had a button you could push, that would kill every muslim on the planet, would you push it? [/b][/quote]
    Moses;
    While I admit that emotion does cloud my judgement from time to time, I don&#39;t think I ever posted anything quite that harsh.

    This is not intended as an Islam bashing thread...it is a legitimate question about the state of moderate Muslims in the ME and here in the U.S.

    BB

    P.S. Since it pertains to this topic...I see that the Saudi&#39;s, UAE, and Jordan have condemned the beheading of Berg. [/b][/quote]
    You&#39;re right, it was another Bills fan. Sorry.

    Anyway, I couldn&#39;t answer that question then, and I can&#39;t answer it now. Just being honest. But seeing things as they stand, someday, somebody will.

  15. #35
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by outsider[/i]@May 13 2004, 12:19 PM
    [b] Do you see anything being done to protect the subways? Don&#39;t you think that is their next target? Especially with all of the recent train bombings and derailments. [/b][/quote]
    Other than an obvious military presence in Penn Station and Grand Central Station, there is very little being done for security on the subways. Sure there might be additional cops, but what is really to stop a terrorist from carrying a backpack full of explosives onto a subway train that, god forbid, is in one of the tunnels from the outer boroughs into Manhattan, or on one of the bridges?

    Thats one of my biggest concerns, as a New Yorker and an American. I have very little issue with what we&#39;re doing in the Mid East. I just think we&#39;re falling down on the job when it comes to security at home.

  16. #36
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by joewilly+May 12 2004, 03:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (joewilly @ May 12 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheBrodyMan[/i]@May 12 2004, 01:42 PM
    [b] Also guys, try not to tie all Muslims with the violent ones. There are a lot of very peaceful Muslims who keep getting tied together with the ones who killed Berg and such.

    There a good amount of evil Muslims over in the ME, but there are also a lot of very peaceful Muslims who understand their faith and knows it doesnt include violence.

    And for the first time bmann, you make a good point about the leader. They dont have the hierarchial figure like most religions have, so it is difficult for them to truly understand the context of their faith. [/b][/quote]
    I don&#39;t think this thread is tying in the moderate muslims with the radicals, but is wondering why there is no voice whatsoever from the moderates denouncing the radical atrocities [/b][/quote]
    Moderate Muslims are a myth.

    Sort of like White people in the 60&#39;s who claim they weren&#39;t racist. ...but did nothing.

    When 1 muslim on this planet calls the cops... [u][b]Just 1[/b][/u] and says, "Folks, my brother in law has a bomb in his living room" ....then I&#39;ll believe in this silly notion of moderate muslims.

  17. #37
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    5ever, had the US been proactive against potential terror beforehand, Atta and his band of killers would have never entered the country in the first place. There was no need for profiling because Atta was listed on international terror lists. Furthermore, there was a reason why the CIA and FBI were tracking him and his associates. There is no profiling needed in this example. The guy had been identified as a bad guy out of thousands of other Arab/ Muslim travelers/immigrants who travel here daily. Arrest him and hold him or deport him. There is no profiling needed and no American would have a problem with that, myself included.

    5ever and Boozer and some of you claim that we don&#39;t know how to govern ourselves. That is about the biggest stereotypical remark yet. That is no different than someone saying look at the Irish their all lushes who can&#39;t stay away from liquor and calling them worthles drunks. The Arab Emirates and Turkey figured it out and they figured it out without US intervention into their domestic affairs. Some of you just can&#39;t seem to acknowledge that the constant placing of fascists in power in countries like Saudi, Iran or Iraq only encourage the sustenance of fascism and anti-americanism. With that comes consequences. Unfortunately, we have witnessed those consequences and that is why we are debating issues like this.

    This is not a yeah but response. This is the way it is. It is no different than going out and picking up a chick that you know is a loose goose and then go and bareback her. If you catch an STD or something then that was the consequence for being stupid and horny. If you smoke and you get cancer. What should you expect? If you eat too much McDonalds and turn into a fat bastard. Is it your fault or mine? That is the point. It may not be politically correct but it is the truth.

    I think Boozer&#39;s comments about Europe are somewhat off base. Yes there is a large and growing Muslim/Arab population in Europe. However, they are treated like third class citizens in many countries like France. Seriously try watching International News Network&#39;s European edition and you will see that much of Europe has had that attitude towards Muslims for decades. I don&#39;t see that as a political threat. I do see that as a determining factor in a young Muslim/Arab kid turning to a life of crime at a very young age instead of going to school and trying to get a job.

    JerryK, your comment lucidly exhibits your lack of intellect. Go get a GED and make something of yourself&#33;

  18. #38
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    Outsider -

    Who bears ultimate responsibility for the structure and culture of Middle Eastern arab Muslim countries?

    I say the arab Muslims in those countries do. Do you agree or disagree?

    You say we "place" fascists in power. Does that mean arab muslims would have all had free, representative, consensual governments by now had the US not gotten involved? Is that your contention?

    I can accept tons of imperfections in my country and culture. I don&#39;t blame others for the things I find wrong with America. Stupid people elect stupid reps who write stupid laws. The USA wasn&#39;t ALWAYS the biggest, baddest and best country. We learned to look out for ourselves and didn&#39;t blame others when the British invaded, or when we had a civil war or when other countries tried to bully us or when the Japs bombed us. We took it upon ourselves to chnage the way we were living. Hell, America wouldn&#39;t even exist in its present form if enough people who hated the structure of their society didn&#39;t do something about it. The Pilgrims didn&#39;t start bombing British cafes because of oppression. They said, "later for this popsicle stand" and took the tough, painful, and long-term steps required to create a better society. Complaining and engaging in terrorism wouldn&#39;t have accomplished anything. Muslims need to do what countless millions have always done throughout history and they need to fundamentally change the very core of their society. They are not children, it&#39;s THEIR responsibility. It&#39;s THEIR fault that it hasn&#39;t happened yet. It is no one elses. They need to grow up. That is not racist, not a stereo-type and not ignorant. It is fact. Children blame everyone else but themselves for what&#39;s wrong in their lives. Grown-ups accept responsibility and do things that are difficult. You keep telling others to &#39;accept&#39; this or that about how the USA is Satan and you are fundamentally unprepared to accept what it is that arab muslim must do for themselves. I feel very badly for you, it is a difficult situation for you and one that is a tough pill to swallow. I am an Irish Catholic, my ancestors came over here in the late 1700&#39;s and settled in Louisiana and sweated and worked and suffered and I have lived a sinfully easy life relative oto them...I actually have some Creole blood in my veins from when they settled down there. I personally sacrificed nothing to be where I am today and my ethnic group has [i]already [/i]taken the painful steps necessary to reach modernity. Your ethnic group has not. Such is the cold and detached lottery of genetics and chance. It is not your fault and not due to my merit that things are the way they are for our respective ethnic bretheren. I am sorry for that and know it is tough for you, I am not saying this to be a jerk, I truly feel badly and respect that you are a thoughtful person. I&#39;d love to meet and have a brew or something at a Jets game.... Genetics is both a wondrous testament to the beauty of God&#39;s creation and a cold *****.....nonetheless, it is what it is. Nothing will change until arab muslims stop feeling sorry for themselves and stop looking outward for solutions to problems of their own making....

  19. #39
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by outsider[/i]@May 14 2004, 12:42 PM
    [b] 5ever, had the US been proactive against potential terror beforehand, Atta and his band of killers would have never entered the country in the first place. There was no need for profiling because Atta was listed on international terror lists. Furthermore, there was a reason why the CIA and FBI were tracking him and his associates. There is no profiling needed in this example. The guy had been identified as a bad guy out of thousands of other Arab/ Muslim travelers/immigrants who travel here daily. Arrest him and hold him or deport him. There is no profiling needed and no American would have a problem with that, myself included.

    5ever and Boozer and some of you claim that we don&#39;t know how to govern ourselves. That is about the biggest stereotypical remark yet. That is no different than someone saying look at the Irish their all lushes who can&#39;t stay away from liquor and calling them worthles drunks. The Arab Emirates and Turkey figured it out and they figured it out without US intervention into their domestic affairs. Some of you just can&#39;t seem to acknowledge that the constant placing of fascists in power in countries like Saudi, Iran or Iraq only encourage the sustenance of fascism and anti-americanism. With that comes consequences. Unfortunately, we have witnessed those consequences and that is why we are debating issues like this.

    This is not a yeah but response. This is the way it is. It is no different than going out and picking up a chick that you know is a loose goose and then go and bareback her. If you catch an STD or something then that was the consequence for being stupid and horny. If you smoke and you get cancer. What should you expect? If you eat too much McDonalds and turn into a fat bastard. Is it your fault or mine? That is the point. It may not be politically correct but it is the truth.

    I think Boozer&#39;s comments about Europe are somewhat off base. Yes there is a large and growing Muslim/Arab population in Europe. However, they are treated like third class citizens in many countries like France. Seriously try watching International News Network&#39;s European edition and you will see that much of Europe has had that attitude towards Muslims for decades. I don&#39;t see that as a political threat. I do see that as a determining factor in a young Muslim/Arab kid turning to a life of crime at a very young age instead of going to school and trying to get a job.

    JerryK, your comment lucidly exhibits your lack of intellect. Go get a GED and make something of yourself&#33; [/b][/quote]
    Outsider, thanks for the response. As far as your response to my thoughts about the Arabs inability to govern themselves, I still stand by my convictions on that topic. While I agree Turkey and the Arab Emirates are doing a pretty good job, they are only a small percentage as a whole. And the rest are just atrociously corrupt.

    I agree that currently Europe does treat Muslims as 2nd class citizens, much as the US does. It is a shame. However, Muslims generally are reporducing at a muh higher rate that any other religious faction. It is quite fair to say that if the current population stays in countries such as France and Spain and continues to reproduce at their current rate, they will be the dominating population, and it isn&#39;t that far off.

    Normally I think any minority population that gains political power is a good thing. It is terribly unfair to discriminate based on religious or racial factors. But in this case I worry. In my lifetime I have never seen any religious faction commit such violent atrocities while praising their god. Every suicide bomber is screaming Allahu Akbar prior to murdering dozens of people. All of the 9-11 terrorists were screaming the same as they murdered thousands. As Nick Berg&#39;s head was being sliced off, you heard chants over and over, Allahu Akbar. These people commit these atrocities in the name of their god, and generally we see fellow mulim citizens cheering on the streets when they do this. So it makes us wonder, do Muslims really denounce these acts? Or is it the just a minority of Muslims who denounce it.

    You have to understand outsider, we see what is going on and we form our judgements on it. When we see a group of Arabs on TV cheering when a violent act is commited vs the US, we assume it is the general concensus of the public there. People like you come in and say "No, that is a video of a very small group, it does not represent the mindset of the whole". Then when thousands of Americans die as a result of a terrorist act, we see video of entire Arab major citis celebrating exhuberantly. Again, some like yourself say that is discretionary video tping, that it really wasn&#39;t the whole population. Naturally we are very skeptical.

    There is no explanation being given to us about the Muslim religion or the Quran. IF a Catholic ran around killing muslims in the name of Christ, the Christian public would denounce it. If the Muslims demanded an explanation of the intentions of Catholocism, you would here us proclaim that Jesus teaches us to love our neighbors. He teaches us to even love those who commit harm on us. He teaches us to help sinners to not sin and help them in their quest to find god. And if they choose not to find god, we are taught to pray for the sinner and love him anyway.

    Muslims have said nothing more than "Islam does not condone violence". Well that&#39;s great, but right now I see alot of horrible acts being commited in the name of Allah, but even worse is I see alot of support for it. So please, try if you can to eplain the Quran in layman&#39;s terms and what it asks of Muslims to do in leading their lives. How does it say to treat non-believers. How does it say to treat sinners? I ask this seriously and with no malicious intent. I just am curious to hear it.

  20. #40
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    14 out of 15 of the major conflicts in the world today consist of Muslims fighting with their neighbors.

    Yup, a religion of peace for sure :rolleyes:

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