Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: "I was Just Following Orders"

  1. #1
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    8,682
    Post Thanks / Like
    That's it I've had enough.

    This isn't about me but let me set the scene for what I am about to say.

    It's no secret around this place that I am a proud veteran of the US Army. I served honorably for 4 years as a commissioned officer in the Field Artillery, and deployed to peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations in both Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo during my time on active duty. I can comfortably say a number of things about my time on active duty and am convinced that if you asked my fellow officers and most importantly my noncommissioned officers that they would back up these statements.

    1) That I was well respected by those I worked for, and most importantly, the soldiers and NCOs that worked for me.
    2) During those 4 years I went out of my way to take care of my NCOs and soldiers both in the field and in garrison.
    3) That I was fair and of sound judgement. The decisions I made were backed by the men because they had confidence in my leadership ability.
    4) That I had the intestinal fortitude to stand up for my men, what I believed in, and spoke up when I thought that something was wrong.

    I got out of the Army because as a commisisoned officer, I was becoming increasingly upset with the leadership above me. The Army's officer corps had morphed into a 'zero defect' environment, where people were so concerned about their careers first that they'd advance it on the backs of their soldiers at all costs. It wasn't "What's best for my troops", the prevailing theory was. "What can I do to get my next promotion". If it came at the expense and suffering of the troops then so be it. Any form of open discussion during planning phases in both garrison and field operations was for the most part shunned. You could speak up but you were taking your life into your own hands.

    What has happend at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad is an absolute disgrace. As a former member of the US Army, what was allowed to go down there is an absolute disgcrace and a black eye to the service I loved so much. We are the USA. We have prided ourselves on being above that type of nonsense for mostof our history. When our soldiers were having their heads taken off by the Japanese in WWII, we still kept our composure towards the treatment of Japanese POWs. When our men were rotting inside the Hanoi Hilton, we still kept our composure towards the vietnamese prisioners....for the most part. When the Germans mowed down our POWs in the Hertgen Forest in WWII, we kept our composure. The actions of these idiots in the Abu Ghraib prision has hurt our reputation not only as an Army, but as a nation. They have singlehandedly destroyed our image of fairness, humane treatment and respect throughout the world. They have also provided the Iraqi opposition with a reason to build in numbers on a silver plate.

    In my mind, the singled largest largest reason for what has happend is a total and complete lack of leadership within that unit. Crap rolls downhill? Well in any military unit the tone is set my the officer in charge. Let's start out with the one in charge of everything.

    [img]http://a.abcnews.com/media/GMA/images/abc_gma_karpinski_040503_nh.jpg[/img]
    BG Karpinski

    What a disgrace. Here is a general officer, who after the story breaks out, immediately dons her civilian clothes, grabs her civilian attorney and hits every news program in North America that would take her to say, "It's not my fault", "I didn't know what was going on"

    Here's what was basically said during an interview. [i]Karpinski, commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade, said she was unaware of any situations involving the possible abuse of Iraqi prisoners while she served as the commander of the prison. Karpinski said she wasn't even at the prison during much of her time as commander. [/i]

    That's nice. The old I didn't know what was going on defense. Worked well for the Germans who lived right outside the walls of Dachau. Are you kidding me? A general officer, a career officer, and her first defense is run on national TV in civies, claim ignorance and state, 'it wasn't me'. She's a general officer, everything that happens under her command is HER RESPONSIBILITY. The definition of a commander in an Army manual is "The commander is responsible for everything that occurrs or fails to occurr in the unit he/she commands". A BG is now sitting on national tv essentially 'passing the buck', attempting to pass blame to her subordinates because this is not only a career killer, this is criminal.

    Remember the leadership vacuum I spoke of earlier, well hot damn, I think we found their spokeswoman. She is a disgrace to anyone who has ever worn officer's rank. [b]Hang her out to dry[/b]. At a minimum get her ass out of the Army, she has no buisness being a leader of soldiers.

    Which brings up another question. Speaking of a leadership vaccum, where in the hell were the Platoon Sergeants (SFCs), the Platoon Leaders (LTs), the Company Commanders (CPTs), battalion staffs and battalion commanders during all this? What were they doing? They knew what was going on and did nothing about it. It took a 2 star General to com forward and blow the whistle on this nightmare. No way it ever should have went this far. The officers of that unit should have had the balls to recognize this was wrong and step up for what they believe in. Instead, they apaprently decided to take the path of least resistance and do nothing. [b]Hang them out to dry.[/b]

    Now to my favorite part of the story, the whole theme of this rant. The ever present "I was just following orders".

    [img]http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/common/images/story_image_pop.gif[/img]
    PFC England

    Throuhout time the 'I was just following orders" defense has been used by those committing the actions as an attempt to justify it. The Nuermberg Trials in WWII, the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. And all through history, judges and military juries have looked through those excuses to call them for what they really are. BULL&HIT.

    This two bit cigarette smoking butch hillbilly from West Virgina is so full of crap I could vomit. Her latest excuse, "I was ordered to smile" is laughable. Nothing in the pictures of her in the prision indicate any form of coercion in my opinion. She holds the look of a willing participant, enjoying what she is doing. Now she's on national TV claiming the ' it wasn't my fault" defense and hey why not right? Her own commanding general is taking the same defense. She's got that typical stupid "Joe Snuffy" look, uniform in shambles and cigarette hanging from her mouth, a complete slob. [b]Let her hang.[/b]

    When I see the pictures of her and of the fellow members of her unit, I see a unit that completely lacks leadership. They look rag tag, undisciplined and do not look like professional soldiers. A lack of discipline on that level starts at the stop and works its way down.


    Finally, my last target of opportunity for this rant: Donald Rumsfeld.

    [img]http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Jan2002/010920-D-9880W-043.gif[/img]

    It's time for Rumsfeld to go. Not because of this prision abuse scandal, but for many other reasons. I've lost confidence in his ability to manage the defense of our country. Why? I could list a number of reasons but here is my biggest one: the present size of the US military.

    During the cold war we had close to 40% more soldiers in the Army alone, not even counting the other branches and never once faced our enemy 'The Soviets" on the battlefield....thank god. Not counting our attempts to contain communism in Korea and Vietnam, we had a much larger military with essentially lest conflicts. Today we have an Army capped out at 495,000 soldiers and find ourselves all over the world, fighting terrorism. Our active duty forces are stretched all over the place, our guard and reserve forces are being called up left an right with some being activated twice (The part I have a problem with). We're deployed to more places at present then at any other time during the cold war, yet we're doing it with an Army almost 1/2 the size of the one in the 80s.

    Keep in mind this fact. It takes roughly 3 support soldiers to support 1 combat arms soldier.

    Furthermore, our current US Military policy is to be able to fight a two 'regional conflicts' at one time. So riddle me this? COuld we go around the world, say.............Korea, and fight another war? I don't think so. You know this, I know this, but Rumsfeld thinks we're all idiots.

    Despite overtures from both Republican and Democratic members of congress to increase the size of the active duty military, specifically the Army and Marines, Rumsfeld continues to blow them off and state we're fine at our current levels. Furthermore, he's actually been proposing more base closures around the country.

    Why? We're in the midst of a major war on terrorism and we're being 'economical' with the size of our military? This isn't the time to worry about that, just like we increased the military for the cold war, it's time to increase it for the war on terror. We as a nation cannot expect our men and women of the US military, ESPECIALLY those in the guard and reserve, to deploy for a year on end almost every other year into the neat future.

    It is my opinion that Rumsfeld is no longer the man I want leading the Department of Defense. I think it's time for Bush to move on if he gets reelected.



    That's my rant, I'm sticking to it

  2. #2
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Philly
    Posts
    38,782
    Post Thanks / Like
    one small point of contention Rumsfeld is the Sec of Defense he's not the Sec of rebuilding and peacekeeping

    personally i think he's done a damn fine job leading the troops to battlefield victories - lack of a plan to rebuilding Iraq isn't his fault.

    its Dick Cheney's fault, its Paul Wolfowitz's fault and above all it's George Bush's fault

  3. #3
    Hall Of Fame
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    10,475
    Post Thanks / Like
    The rebuilding has really just begun. Anyone who thought this was going to be quick is foolish. When we rebuilt Japan and West Germany after WWII it took many many years to complete. There will be many more roadblocks, terrorist attacks etc.. This could require a 10 year commitment if not longer.

  4. #4
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Philly
    Posts
    38,782
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jetman67[/i]@May 12 2004, 02:03 PM
    [b] The rebuilding has really just begun. Anyone who thought this was going to be quick is foolish. When we rebuilt Japan and West Germany after WWII it took many many years to complete. There will be many more roadblocks, terrorist attacks etc.. This could require a 10 year commitment if not longer. [/b][/quote]
    jetman i agree completely RE: the length of rebuilding but the point needs to be made that Japan and Germany did not start to rebuild until the war was over.

    to put that another way - no one was fighting during rebuilding process... Japan had been nuked, Germany had been decimated, the rebuilders weren't in physical danger.

    When foreign speculators and investors are beheaded on videotape it doesn't exactly bode well for the rebuilding process.

    I would contest that rebuilding hasn't even really begun

    more than that George Bush led us into this war without a declaration of war from Congress and also without any real reason! the WMD was the national security issue that no one seems to care about anymore but the fact remains we invaded and occupied another nation based on faulty intel and the mess will take decades to clean up - the price will be high

    and like i said before the war isn't even really over... you cant rebuild a country and fight insurgents at the same time, its impossible.

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,239
    Post Thanks / Like
    These terrorists are not HONORABLE people. The rebuilding of Iraq may never be completed if more disgusting beheadings take place like what happened to Berg....


    I swear...that was one of the most grotesque things I have ever seen in my life...i almost threw up. I hope that terrorist burns in hell..

    LL

  6. #6
    All Pro
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    5,949
    Post Thanks / Like
    Before this thread inevitably veers off-target, I just want to say well said Guns. I agree 100% that the actions of those folks in Abu Ghraib were embarrassing, way out of line, and should be punishable.

  7. #7
    All Pro
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    5,949
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@May 12 2004, 02:10 PM
    [b] and like i said before the war isn't even really over... you cant rebuild a country and fight insurgents at the same time, its impossible. [/b][/quote]
    That I will agree with. Its almost impossible to rebuild a country when there's still large numbers of insurgents trying to kill the very people there to rebuild.

  8. #8
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    8,682
    Post Thanks / Like
    Funny. Take it for what it's worth because after all it is the NY Post. But here is some interesting material to back up my claim that PFC England isn't as innocent as she wants us to believe.

    [url=http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/20802.htm]http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/20802.htm[/url]


    May 13, 2004 -- WASHINGTON - Shocking shots of sexcapades involving Pfc. Lynndie England were among the hundreds of X-rated photos and videos from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal shown to lawmakers in a top-secret Capitol conference room yesterday.
    "She was having sex with numerous partners. It appeared to be consensual," said a lawmaker who saw the photos.

    And, videos showed the disgraced soldier - made notorious in a photo showing her holding a leash looped around an Iraqi prisoner's neck - engaged in graphic sex acts with other soldiers in front of Iraqi prisoners, Pentagon officials told NBC Nightly News.

    "Almost everybody was naked all the time," another lawmaker said.

    Many members of Congress left the 45-minute viewing session early, thereby missing the porno performance by England, but there were enough other images of torture, humiliation and intimidation to sicken anyone.

    "It was pretty disgusting, not what you'd expect from Americans," said Sen. Norm Coleman (R-Minn.). "There was lots of sexual stuff - not of the Iraqis, but of our troops."

    Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), who also characterized the photos as "disgusting," agreed, noting, "It's hard to believe that this actually is taking place in a military facility."



    The shocking photos and videos, provided on computer disks by Pentagon officials, showed attack dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners tied together on the floor, senators revealed as they emerged from the heavily guarded conference room.

    "It was significantly worse than I had anticipated," said Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore). "Take the worst case and multiply it over several times."

    "I don't know how these people got into our Army," said Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell (R-Colo.), who reported seeing "several pictures of Iraqi women who were disrobed or putting their shirts up."

    Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) described the images as "more detailed and more graphic than the pictures that have been released publicly," referring to the disturbing photos of Iraqis being abused at Abu Ghraib prison that surfaced two weeks ago, and which Islamic terrorists claim led to this week's revenge beheading of American Nick Berg.

    "Normally, I side with disclosure and openness, but in this case, these photos are evidence," Schumer said, indicating that he favors keeping the lid on the alarming pictures, as Vice President Dick Cheney and Sen. John Warner (R-Va.) have urged.

    Rep. Jane Harman (Calif.), ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said she was most appalled by a video of a handcuffed prisoner beating his head against a wall in an apparent bid to knock himself unconscious to escape abuse.

    In another video clip, she said, a group of men were shown masturbating.

    Before the pictures of England's sex romps were shown to Congress, the 21-year-old reservist from West Virginia tried to portray herself as a reluctant participant who was just following orders.

    "I didn't really, I mean, want to be in any pictures," England told a Denver TV station.

    "I was instructed by persons in higher rank to 'stand there, hold this leash, look at the camera,' and they took picture for PsyOps [psychological operations]," she told KCNC-TV.

    England acknowledged "it was kind of weird" when she was photographed smiling, with a cigarette in her mouth, as she leaned forward and pointed at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi at Abu Ghraib prison.

    England has refused to identify who gave her the orders, saying only that they came from "persons in my chain of command."

    England faces a military court-martial that includes charges such as conspiracy to maltreat prisoners and assault consummated by battery.

    She could face punishment ranging from a reprimand to more than 15 years in prison.

    Additional reporting by Niles Lathem

  9. #9
    All Pro
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    5,949
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yeah, I read that today. Sounds like all hell was breaking loose if that's the truth. No discipline AT ALL.

    I wonder if she was told to have all that public sex by superiors too? ;)

  10. #10
    All League
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Middle of New Jersey
    Posts
    2,968
    Post Thanks / Like
    I realize this is a serious topic, and serious thread, but I have to say...

    That chick in the middle of all this has to be one of the most unattractive woman I've ever seen. What guy is saying "yea, I want her"?

  11. #11
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    1,541
    Post Thanks / Like
    Great post, Guns.

    I spent 4 years in the Army as a flight medic stationed at Ft. Drum, NY. I was deployed to Somalia, and also to Homestead after Hurricane Andrew. I enjoyed most of my time in the military. Unfortunately, the military, like the civilian world, has people that shouldn't be in the job that they have. My sergeant in my medical platoon, would gag at the sight of blood. I would never have trusted him to perform any sort of emergency medical treatment. The reason he was my boss? Because he was in longer than I was. However, as my NCO, I still respected him, and he respected me for knowing my job well.

    That was my problems with the military... Someone could be your boss, not because he did a better job than you, but because he had seniority.

    That said, I just can't fathom how these folks did all this, took pictures of it, and no one in the chain of command knew about it.

    I was the leader of my ambulance team, if a private's uniform wasn't pressed or his boots not polished, I was responsible. This general is completely responsible.

  12. #12
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,281
    Post Thanks / Like
    Guns, I agree with alot of what you said.

    I would have made a damn good career military man. In fact, I think it is what I was cut out to do. It didn't take long to become demoralized and bitter.

    Alas, I was just born in the wrong time, I guess. Not gonna say more than that.

    As for Rumsfeld:

    If not him, who? Hang tough for 6 more months. Let's get Bush-Cheney re-elected, and then we can go from there.

    I don't want to relive a Jimmy Carter nightmare.

    Our priority is getting Bush re-elected. Stay focused.

  13. #13
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,457
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Stewdawg[/i]@May 14 2004, 04:34 AM
    [b] That chick in the middle of all this has to be one of the most unattractive woman I've ever seen. What guy is saying "yea, I want her"? [/b][/quote]
    SD - It is really quite simple.

    The longer you are deployed the lower your standards get. The first few weeks of a deployment, she is still ugly. However, as weeks turn to months, she starts to look better and better to the point you will want to hit that. Given the situation they are in, an area of war, the looking for miss right is gone and it is time to look for miss right now.

  14. #14
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,281
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by PFSIKH+May 14 2004, 12:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (PFSIKH @ May 14 2004, 12:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Stewdawg[/i]@May 14 2004, 04:34 AM
    [b] That chick in the middle of all this has to be one of the most unattractive woman I&#39;ve ever seen. What guy is saying "yea, I want her"? [/b][/quote]
    SD - It is really quite simple.

    The longer you are deployed the lower your standards get. The first few weeks of a deployment, she is still ugly. However, as weeks turn to months, she starts to look better and better to the point you will want to hit that. Given the situation they are in, an area of war, the looking for miss right is gone and it is time to look for miss right now. [/b][/quote]
    I&#39;ve been saying that all week. This coed army is lunacy. Sex is an empowering tool. Even a dog like Linnde England could impose her will on the men around her by offering, withholding, or promising sexual favors, and then playing one guy off on another. It problably started out innocuous enough, but once the ball got rolling there was no stopping this depravity. As for Karpinski, come on, thats affirmative action right there. They need X amount of female generals, she fit the suit, then they had to find a place to put her, they figured she couldn&#39;t do any damage at the prison...

    Of course, Bush Bashers like Nickeldefense dismissed my views by saying "What about the British pictures" blah blah blah.

    They turned out to be a hoax.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us