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Thread: Washington Post blows the lid off abuse scandal

  1. #1
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    This article blows away any misconception about honor in the Military Services.

    I hope you haven't eaten Breakfast

    [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43783-2004May20.html]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004May20.html[/url]

    [b]New Details of Prison Abuse Emerge [/b]

    [b]Abu Ghraib Detainees' Statements Describe Sexual Humiliation And Savage Beatings[/b]

    By Scott Higham and Joe Stephens
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Friday, May 21, 2004; Page A01


    Previously secret sworn statements by detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq describe in raw detail abuse that goes well beyond what has been made public, adding allegations of prisoners being ridden like animals, sexually fondled by female soldiers and forced to retrieve their food from toilets.

    The fresh allegations of prison abuse are contained in statements taken from 13 detainees shortly after a soldier reported the incidents to military investigators in mid-January. The detainees said they were savagely beaten and repeatedly humiliated sexually by American soldiers working on the night shift at Tier 1A in Abu Ghraib during the holy month of Ramadan, according to copies of the statements obtained by The Washington Post.

    The statements provide the most detailed picture yet of what took place on the cellblock. Some of the detainees described being abused as punishment or discipline after they were caught fighting or with a prohibited item. Some said they were pressed to denounce Islam or were force-fed pork and liquor. Many provided graphic details of how they were sexually humiliated and assaulted, threatened with rape, and forced to masturbate in front of female soldiers.

    "They forced us to walk like dogs on our hands and knees," said Hiadar Sabar Abed Miktub al-Aboodi, detainee No. 13077. "And we had to bark like a dog, and if we didn't do that they started hitting us hard on our face and chest with no mercy. After that, they took us to our cells, took the mattresses out and dropped water on the floor and they made us sleep on our stomachs on the floor with the bags on our head and they took pictures of everything."

    The prisoners also provided accounts of how some of the now-famous photographs were staged, including the pyramid of hooded, naked prisoners. Eight of the detainees identified by name one particular soldier at the center of the abuse investigation, Spec. Charles A. Graner Jr., a member of the 372nd Military Police Company from Cresaptown, Md. Five others described abuse at the hands of a solider who matches Graner's description.

    "They said we will make you wish to die and it will not happen," said Ameen Saeed Al-Sheik, detainee No. 151362. "They stripped me naked. One of them told me he would rape me. He drew a picture of a woman to my back and makes me stand in shameful position holding my buttocks."

    The Pentagon is investigating the allegations, a spokesman said last night.

    "There are a number of lines of inquiry that are being taken with respect to allegations of abuse of detainees in U.S. custody," Bryan Whitman said. "There is still more to know and to be learned and new things to be discovered."

    Threats of Death and Assault

    The disclosures come from a new cache of documents, photographs and videos obtained by The Post that are part of evidence assembled by Army investigators putting together criminal cases against soldiers at Abu Ghraib. So far, seven MPs have been charged with brutalizing detainees at the prison, and one pleaded guilty Wednesday.

    The sworn statements, taken in Baghdad between Jan. 16 and Jan. 21, span 65 pages. Each statement begins with a handwritten account in Arabic that is signed by the detainee, followed by a typewritten translation by U.S. military contractors. The shortest statement is a single paragraph; the longest exceeds two single-spaced typewritten pages.

    While military investigators interviewed the detainees separately, many of them recalled the same event or pattern of events and procedures in Tier 1A -- a block reserved for prisoners who were thought to possess intelligence that could help thwart the insurgency in Iraq, find Saddam Hussein or locate weapons of mass destruction. Military intelligence officers took over the cellblock last October and were using MPs to help "set the conditions" for interrogations, according to an investigative report complied by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba. Several MPs have since said in statements and through their attorneys that they were roughing up detainees at the direction of U.S. military intelligence officers.

    Most of the detainees said in the statements that they were stripped upon their arrival to Tier 1A, forced to wear women's underwear, and repeatedly humiliated in front of one another and American soldiers. They also described beatings and threats of death and sexual assault if they did not cooperate with U.S. interrogators.

    Kasim Mehaddi Hilas, detainee No. 151108, told investigators that when he first arrived at Abu Ghraib last year, he was forced to strip, put on a hood and wear rose-colored panties with flowers on them. "Most of the days I was wearing nothing else," he said in his statement.

    Hilas also said he witnessed an Army translator having sex with a boy at the prison. He said the boy was between 15 and 18 years old. Someone hung sheets to block the view, but Hilas said he heard the boy's screams and climbed a door to get a better look. Hilas said he watched the assault and told investigators that it was documented by a female soldier taking pictures.

    "The kid was hurting very bad," Hilas said.

    Hilas, like other detainees interviewed by the military, said he could not identify some of the soldiers because they either covered their name patches or did not wear uniforms. But he and other detainees did know the names of three, including Graner and Sgt. Javal S. Davis, both of whom have been charged and now face courts-martial. Some of the detainees described a short female MP with dark hair and a blond female MP of medium height who watched and took part in some of the abuses. Three female MPs have been charged in the case so far.


    Hilas told investigators that he asked Graner for the time one day because he wanted to pray. He said Graner cuffed him to the bars of a cell window and left him there for close to five hours, his feet dangling off the floor. Hilas also said he watched as Graner and others sodomized a detainee with a phosphoric light. "They tied him to the bed," Hilas said.

    Graner's attorney, Guy L. Womack, did not return phone messages yesterday. In previous interviews, he has said that his client was following the lead of military intelligence officers.

    Mustafa Jassim Mustafa, detainee No. 150542, told military investigators he also witnessed the phosphoric-light assault. He said it was around the time of Ramadan, the holiest period of the Muslim year, when he heard screams coming from a cell below. Mustafa said he looked down to see a group of soldiers holding the detainee down and sodomizing him with the light.

    Graner was sodomizing him with the phosphoric light, Mustafa said. The detainee "was screaming for help. There was another tall white man who was with Graner -- he was helping him. There was also a white female soldier, short, she was taking pictures."

    Another detainee told military investigators that American soldiers sodomized and beat him. The detainee, whose name is being withheld by The Post because he is an alleged victim of a sexual assault, said he was kept naked for five days when he first arrived at Abu Ghraib and was forced to kneel for four hours with a hood over his head. He said he was beaten so badly one day that the hood flew off his head. "The police was telling me to crawl in Arabic, so I crawled on my stomach and the police were spitting on me when I was crawling, and hitting me on my back, my head and my feet," he said in his sworn statement.

    One day, the detainee said, American soldiers held him down and spread his legs as another soldier prepared to open his pants. "I started screaming," he said. A soldier stepped on his head, he said, and someone broke a phosphoric light and spilled the chemicals on him.

    "I was glowing and they were laughing," he said.

    The detainee said the soldiers eventually brought him to a room and sodomized him with a nightstick. "They were taking pictures of me during all these instances," he told the investigators.

    Mohanded Juma Juma, detainee No. 152307, said he was stripped and kept naked for six days when he arrived at Abu Ghraib. One day, he said, American soldiers brought a father and his son into the cellblock. He said the soldiers put hoods over their heads and removed their clothes.

    Then, they removed the hoods.

    "When the son saw his father naked he was crying," Juma told the investigators. "He was crying because of seeing his father."

    He also said Graner repeatedly threw the detainees' meals into the toilets and said, "Eat it."

    Hussein Mohssein Mata Al-Zayiadi, detainee No. 19446, told investigators that he was one of the hooded prisoners shown in photographs masturbating before American soldiers. "They told my friend to masturbate and told me to masturbate also, while they were taking pictures," he said.


    Al-Zayiadi also said he and other detainees were beaten and tossed into separate cells.

    "They opened the water in the cell and told us to lay face down in the water and we stayed like that until the morning, in the water, naked, without clothes," he said in his statement.

    He also said soldiers forced him and others to perform like animals.

    "Did the guards force you to crawl on your hands and knees on the ground?" a military investigator asked.

    "Yes, they forced us to do this thing," Al-Zayiadi said.

    "What were the guards doing while you were crawling on your hands and knees?"

    "They were sitting on our backs like riding animals," Al-Zayiadi said.

    He said the guards took pictures of the incident.

    Photographs Described

    Al-Zayiadi also described what has become one of the iconic photographs in the prison abuse scandal.

    "They brought my friends, Haidar, Ahmed, Nouri, Ahzem, Hashiem, Mustafa, and I, and they put us two on the bottom, two on top of them, and two on top of those and one on top," he said. "They took pictures of us and we were naked."

    Another publicized photograph -- that of a hooded detainee hooked up to wires and standing on a box -- is also described in the statements.

    "On the third day, after five o'clock, Mr. Graner came and took me to room Number 37, which is the shower room, and he started punishing me," said Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh, detainee No. 18170. "Then he brought a box of food and he made me stand on it with no clothing, except a blanket. Then a tall black soldier came and put electrical wires on my fingers and toes and on my penis, and I had a bag over my head."

    Al-Sheik said he was arrested on Oct. 7, and brought to Abu Ghraib, where he was put in a tent for one night. The next day, he was transferred to the "hard site," the two-story building that held about 200 prisoners and contained Tiers 1A and 1B.

    He said a bag was put over his head and he was made to strip. He said American soldiers started to taunt him.

    "Do you pray to Allah?" one asked. "I said yes. They said, '[Expletive] you. And [expletive] him.' One of them said, 'You are not getting out of here health[y], you are getting out of here handicapped. And he said to me, 'Are you married?' I said, 'Yes.' They said, 'If your wife saw you like this, she will be disappointed.' One of them said, 'But if I saw her now she would not be disappointed now because I would rape her.' "

    He said the soldiers told him that if he cooperated with interrogators they would release him in time for Ramadan. He said he did, but still was not released. He said one soldier continued to abuse him by striking his broken leg and ordered him to curse Islam. "Because they started to hit my broken leg, I cursed my religion," he said. "They ordered me to thank Jesus that I'm alive."

    The detainee said the soldiers handcuffed him to a bed.

    "Do you believe in anything?" he said the soldier asked. "I said to him, 'I believe in Allah.' So he said, "But I believe in torture and I will torture you.' "


    [b][SIZE=4]Graner is an animal ! Pure and simple[/SIZE][/b]

  2. #2
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    Your mother should throw herself off a cliff to have a son like you.

  3. #3
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    WCM -

    Why use such a narrow generalization? Why not simply state that [i]all white American men [/i]are moral degenerates? I think that would be more powerful...hey, is Graner a Christian?! Hopefully, then we can bash all of those freaks too!


    [url=http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock.asp]http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock.asp[/url]

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    I've gotta side with the Cons on this one, Mole.

    The actions of the degenerates in the prison certainly do NOT mean there is no honor in the military. Most of those people are good folks, doing their job. Broad generalizations are never good.

  5. #5
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@May 21 2004, 08:12 AM
    [b] ...hey, is Graner a Christian?! Hopefully, then we can bash all of those freaks too!

    [/b][/quote]
    It would be even "better" if Graner was a Jew.

  6. #6
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jet Moses+May 21 2004, 08:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Jet Moses @ May 21 2004, 08:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--jets5ever[/i]@May 21 2004, 08:12 AM
    [b] ...hey, is Graner a Christian?&#33; Hopefully, then we can bash all of those freaks too&#33;

    [/b][/quote]
    It would be even "better" if Graner was a Jew. [/b][/quote]
    True, true. Damn, I should have thought of that&#33; Here I was, all proud of myself for coming up with a funny line and then you come along and point out a glaring flaw...bastard&#33; ;)

  7. #7
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    Mole, Do you support the theory of a few bad apples spoil the whole bushel?? To say that our Military has no honor is just wrong.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever+May 21 2004, 08:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (jets5ever @ May 21 2004, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -Jet Moses@May 21 2004, 08:34 AM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--jets5ever[/i]@May 21 2004, 08:12 AM
    [b] ...hey, is Graner a Christian?&#33; Hopefully, then we can bash all of those freaks too&#33;

    [/b][/quote]
    It would be even "better" if Graner was a Jew. [/b][/quote]
    True, true. Damn, I should have thought of that&#33; Here I was, all proud of myself for coming up with a funny line and then you come along and point out a glaring flaw...bastard&#33; ;) [/b][/quote]
    I still can&#39;t figure out why 90% of American Jews vote for democrats...


    Presidential Candidate John Kerry Opens Door for Rival Sharpton to Address Democratic National Convention

    NEW YORK, April 29 /PRNewswire/ --

    In what may be a surprising move to some political circles, Democratic Presidential Candidate Senator John Kerry (D-Massachusetts) has issued an invitation to former Democratic Primary rival Rev. Al Sharpton to address this summer&#39;s Democratic National Convention in Boston.

    Senator Kerry makes his comments tonight in an exclusive one-on-one
    interview with BET NIGHTLY NEWS anchor Jacque Reid at 11 p.m. ET/PT as a
    prelude to a special two-part series with BET airing Monday, May 3 and
    Tuesday, May 4. The interview was taped earlier today with Senator Kerry
    during a campaign stop in Philadelphia.
    The following are excerpts from Senator Kerry&#39;s comments to BET NIGHTLY
    NEWS about whether Rev. Sharpton would be an invited speaker at the Democratic
    National Convention:

    On Rev. Al Sharpton as a Speaker at the DNC ...

    Kerry: "I hope so. Sure ... That&#39;s my call ... If he wants to do it, he
    can do it ... Let me just say to you ... if he wants to do it, I&#39;d like him to
    do it. I think he&#39;d do a terrific job. I think he&#39;ll add something ...
    there&#39;s no plea necessary. It&#39;s my invitation."

    On Rev. Sharpton&#39;s Impact on the Presidential Campaign Season ...

    Kerry: " ... He certainly earned the right to be part of this process,
    and I think he can be very, very helpful in motivating people, in helping to
    register people."

    1987: Sharpton spreads the incendiary Tawana Brawley hoax, insisting heatedly that a 15-year-old black girl was abducted, raped, and smeared with feces by a group of white men. He singles out Steve Pagones, a young prosecutor. Pagones is wholly innocent -- the crime never occurred -- but Sharpton taunts him: "If we&#39;re lying, sue us, so we can . . . prove you did it." Pagones does sue, and eventually wins a &#036;345,000 verdict for defamation. To this day, Sharpton refuses to recant his unspeakable slander or to apologize for his role in the odious affair.
    1991: A Hasidic Jewish driver in Brooklyn&#39;s Crown Heights section accidentally kills Gavin Cato, a 7-year-old black child, and antisemitic riots erupt. Sharpton races to pour gasoline on the fire. At Gavin&#39;s funeral he rails against the "diamond merchants" -- code for Jews -- with "the blood of innocent babies" on their hands. He mobilizes hundreds of demonstrators to march through the Jewish neighborhood, chanting, "No justice, no peace." A rabbinical student, Yankel Rosenbaum, is surrounded by a mob shouting "Kill the Jews&#33;" and stabbed to death.
    1995: When the United House of Prayer, a large black landlord in Harlem, raises the rent on Freddy&#39;s Fashion Mart, Freddy&#39;s white Jewish owner is forced to raise the rent on his subtenant, a black-owned music store. A landlord-tenant dispute ensues; Sharpton uses it to incite racial hatred. "We will not stand by," he warns malignantly, "and allow them to move this brother so that some white interloper can expand his business." Sharpton&#39;s National Action Network sets up picket lines; customers going into Freddy&#39;s are spat on and cursed as "traitors" and "Uncle Toms." Some protesters shout, "Burn down the Jew store&#33;" and simulate striking a match. "We&#39;re going to see that this cracker suffers," says Sharpton&#39;s colleague Morris Powell. On Dec. 8, one of the protesters bursts into Freddy&#39;s, shoots four employees point-blank, then sets the store on fire. Seven employees die in the inferno.
    If Sharpton were a white skinhead, he would be a political leper, spurned everywhere but the fringe. But far from being spurned, he is shown much deference. Democrats embrace him. Politicians court him. And journalists report on his comings and goings while politely sidestepping his career as a hatemongering racial hustler.
    When Sharpton came to Boston to promote his campaign last week, for example, the news coverage was uniformly upbeat. The Boston Herald noted the "joyous singing and thunderous applause" that greeted the "civil rights leader," whose "energetic visit left many enthusiastic about his presidential bid." The Globe announced the arrival of "the colorful and controversial 48-year-old community activist" with a story listing the places and times of his public appearances. The only allusion to his ugly record was a vague quote from a local minister: "He obviously has a lot of history and controversy to overcome." That was quickly countered by Sharpton&#39;s own self-description as a man known "for my fights against racial profiling and discrimination."
    Well, that isn&#39;t what Steve Pagones or the family of Yankel Rosenbaum or the loved ones of those who were burned alive at Freddy&#39;s Fashion Mart know him for. As they can testify, Sharpton is a vicious liar and a dangerous bigot. As a matter of moral hygiene, his party and the press should be able to say so, too

  9. #9
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jet Moses+May 21 2004, 08:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Jet Moses @ May 21 2004, 08:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -jets5ever@May 21 2004, 08:44 AM
    [b] [quote]Originally posted by -Jet Moses@May 21 2004, 08:34 AM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--jets5ever[/i]@May 21 2004, 08:12 AM
    [b] ...hey, is Graner a Christian?&#33; Hopefully, then we can bash all of those freaks too&#33;

    [/b][/quote]
    It would be even "better" if Graner was a Jew. [/b][/quote]
    True, true. Damn, I should have thought of that&#33; Here I was, all proud of myself for coming up with a funny line and then you come along and point out a glaring flaw...bastard&#33; ;) [/b][/quote]
    I still can&#39;t figure out why 90% of American Jews vote for democrats...

    [/b][/quote]
    I&#39;ll tell you why JMo.

    First of all Orthodox Jews overwhelmingly will vote for Bush.

    The fthing is secular Jews in America are notoriously liberal. Their more concerned with issues like abortion and civil rights. What they don&#39;t realize is that the same crowd that they so vehimently support is the crowd that is most against them. The anti -semetic remarks of many of the leftist posters here is great evidence of that fact.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that 50% of the Jews in America are completely unaffiliated with religion. The unaffiliated crowd tends to go with how they were brought up. Since their parents were liberal Democrats the children tend to follow the same path.

    Mainly, I think many people are simply uninformed. Its scary to think that 70% of the country actually pays no attention to politics at all. Those are the folks that never get past the headlines. I think the large segments of Jews who vote Democrat are simple unaware of where the Democratic party has gone. They don&#39;t realize how radical the Dems have become. They remember a party that when headed by Clinton gave the impression of being a centerist party. Now with the likes of Tom Daschle and Nancy Pelosi at the top they should change the name to the Socialist party.

  10. #10
    what is scarier is that at one time 70% of Americans belived that Saddam had something to do with 9-11&#33;

    propaganda is rampant among all governments..
    once the seed is planted it grows...

  11. #11
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    Hey Mole (aka me so rrrrrradical), the moral degeneration in this country can be attributed directly to you and yours on the left, who for at least the last 40 years have methodically and viciously attacked every moral foundation this country was built upon: religion, family, self accountability, etc. So now we have fags and degenerates within the military, elephant crap as "art," 6-generation welfare families, elementary school textbooks that don&#39;t mention George Washington yet devote a chapter to Martin Luther King, abortion as birth control, etc. So that&#39;s great. Your crowd expends all its energy to make this a morally bankrupt country, so you can then spout ass-generated diatribes about how this is a morally bankrupt country. Rrrrrrrrradical

  12. #12
    "to the iraqui people...your day of liberation is near"
    George Bush

  13. #13
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    What&#39;s Amazing is the Major Newspapers were offered pictures
    and Tapes from what was done during Saddams time in the
    Prisons and not one paper NY Times,Washington Post or any other
    Media source would print or report it..Liberal Media?? Nah... :lol:

  14. #14
    [quote][i]Originally posted by bman[/i]@May 21 2004, 10:06 AM
    [b] "to the iraqui people...your day of liberation is near"
    George Bush [/b][/quote]
    Lets see Bman, I quote you word for word in my sig to show what kind of nonesense you spew. It is your legitimate opinion. I felt the need to point it out lest anyone here think that you were a rational and informed poster.

    To counter you post a quote of a joke I made about Kerry&#39;s daughter&#39;s titty picture. A damn funny joke at that. Good one :blink: :blink:

  15. #15
    we didn&#39;t go to war b/c saddam was nasty to his own people&#33;

    there are a lot of places were leaders brutalize the population...

    100 billion to free 60% of the iraqui poulation&#33; (40% (sunnis)lived a good life)

  16. #16
    [quote][i]Originally posted by shakin318[/i]@May 21 2004, 10:04 AM
    [b] Hey Mole (aka me so rrrrrradical), the moral degeneration in this country can be attributed directly to you and yours on the left, who for at least the last 40 years have methodically and viciously attacked every moral foundation this country was built upon: religion, family, self accountability, etc. So now we have fags and degenerates within the military, elephant crap as "art," 6-generation welfare families, elementary school textbooks that don&#39;t mention George Washington yet devote a chapter to Martin Luther King, abortion as birth control, etc. So that&#39;s great. Your crowd expends all its energy to make this a morally bankrupt country, so you can then spout ass-generated diatribes about how this is a morally bankrupt country. Rrrrrrrrradical [/b][/quote]
    OK, while it pains me to defend Bman here, you logic has one major flaw:

    YOU have no right to tell me what is MORAL or how I should live my life, as long (and this is the important part) my actions do not infringe upon your life or your property.

    To imply that only your morals are right is the intellectual equivalent to the Muslisms stating only THEIR morals are right.

    Of course, I cannot blast your entire post (Suprised?) You comments on welfare are extremely accurate, and Welfare is a policy that needs SERIOUS reform and limitations IMO.

    And History should be tought in complete form, not is some biased (one way or the other) form. Let the Historians decide what to teach, not the politicians or the zealots (again, from either side).

    And if you don&#39;t like Elephant Crap as Art, just don&#39;t go. What difference does it make to you what someone else considers art. Personally, I find most Catholic related art to be hidious and completely uncreative (and I am a Catholic). I still wouldn&#39;t try to stop anyone from making it.

  17. #17
    "to the iraqui people, The US has no ambitions in your country"&#33;&#33;
    George Bush

  18. #18
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish+May 21 2004, 10:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Warfish @ May 21 2004, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shakin318[/i]@May 21 2004, 10:04 AM
    [b] Hey Mole (aka me so rrrrrradical), the moral degeneration in this country can be attributed directly to you and yours on the left, who for at least the last 40 years have methodically and viciously attacked every moral foundation this country was built upon: religion, family, self accountability, etc. So now we have fags and degenerates within the military, elephant crap as "art," 6-generation welfare families, elementary school textbooks that don&#39;t mention George Washington yet devote a chapter to Martin Luther King, abortion as birth control, etc. So that&#39;s great. Your crowd expends all its energy to make this a morally bankrupt country, so you can then spout ass-generated diatribes about how this is a morally bankrupt country. Rrrrrrrrradical [/b][/quote]
    OK, while it pains me to defend Bman here, you logic has one major flaw:

    YOU have no right to tell me what is MORAL or how I should live my life, as long (and this is the important part) my actions do not infringe upon your life or your property.

    To imply that only your morals are right is the intellectual equivalent to the Muslisms stating only THEIR morals are right.

    Of course, I cannot blast your entire post (Suprised?) You comments on welfare are extremely accurate, and Welfare is a policy that needs SERIOUS reform and limitations IMO.

    And History should be tought in complete form, not is some biased (one way or the other) form. Let the Historians decide what to teach, not the politicians or the zealots (again, from either side).

    And if you don&#39;t like Elephant Crap as Art, just don&#39;t go. What difference does it make to you what someone else considers art. Personally, I find most Catholic related art to be hidious and completely uncreative (and I am a Catholic). I still wouldn&#39;t try to stop anyone from making it. [/b][/quote]
    Whoa Fish,

    Your way off on this one.

    [b]YOU have no right to tell me what is MORAL or how I should live my life, as long (and this is the important part) my actions do not infringe upon your life or your property.[/b]

    So is it the ok for you to marry your sister? Incest is immoral yet it does not infringe apon anyone else. We live in a society based on morals.

  19. #19
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by chiefst2000[/i]@May 21 2004, 10:29 AM
    [b] Whoa Fish,

    Your way off on this one.

    [b]YOU have no right to tell me what is MORAL or how I should live my life, as long (and this is the important part) my actions do not infringe upon your life or your property.[/b]

    So is it the ok for you to marry your sister? Incest is immoral yet it does not infringe apon anyone else. We live in a society based on morals. [/b][/quote]
    Or how about when the Majority of the people are against
    Gay marriage, but some Activist Liberal Judges decide to make
    it a Law anyway?? You want Gay Marriage fine..But then lets
    make it fair to EVERYONE&#33;&#33; Mormons can have more than 1 wife&#33;
    A Guy can marry his sister or his Dog or Horse as well&#33;&#33; Who are
    you to say Love can only exist between 1 species&#33;&#33; ;)

  20. #20
    [quote][b]So is it the ok for you to marry your sister? Incest is immoral yet it does not infringe apon anyone else. We live in a society based on morals.[/b][/quote]

    If you can tell me why this hurts society, perhaps I will change my opinion. While I personally find it distatsteful and immoral, if an ADULT (important distiction) Child and Parent wish to marry, why should we disallow it? Because a 2000 year old book says so?

    In fact, if we leaglize gay marriage (or unions), then there is abslutely NO legal argument to stop such a union, right or wrong. You cannot allow one without allowing the other (a crux of this issue).

    Like I said, I don;y like it and I don&#39;t practice ro accept it (and Freedom means society does not have to liek or acdept such a person or Union, and Society has the freedom to shun them for it, if it chooses).

    Frredom of Action does not mean we have to accept it.

    Leftists say all forms and actions muct not only be tolerated, but openly accepted (Theyt are Wrong).

    Rightists say many forms and actions must be stopped by law, even though they hurt no one else (and They are Wrong too).

    Freedom is a concept I belive in. The nature of Freedom in my mind is that as long as it does not hurt someone else or their property (on infringe upon the rights of others) then it should not be legislated out.

    Maybe I am wrong, but this is how I see it. I welcome debate.

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