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Thread: Same Sex marriage ban fails

  1. #1
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    I know some of you are just going to be thrilled with this news. :lol:

    [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5437330/]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5437330/[/url]

  2. #2
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    [quote][b]And Sen. George Allen, R-Va. argued that “Sen. Kerry has a bigger explanation to make. When there was an opportunity (to defend traditional marriage) by statute, he was one of a handful that was so extreme and so far out that he did not even want a statute to protect marriage.”
    [/b][/quote]

    So extreme and so far out? WTF does George Allen have to say to the 6 Republicans who shot down the measure?

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Jul 14 2004, 10:03 PM
    [b] So extreme and so far out? WTF does George Allen have to say to the 6 Republicans who shot down the measure? [/b][/quote]
    Yeah I heard about that I thought that was funny as hell. But I believe there were a few Democrats that were for the ban. What's this world coming to? :lol:

  4. #4
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    IMO, the proposed Federal ban on same-sex marriage is nothing more than big government moral preening that is a gigantic invasion of privacy and usurpation of state's rights, let alone individual rights. I also think it is completely unecessary. I acknowledge the fact that we, as a society, are eventually going to have to define what marriage is, but I think that it should be left to each individual state, and their people and representatives, as are many other issues. Once a state, or even a federal government, defines marriage, certain types of arrangements and relationships will likely be excluded from that definition, and members of excluded groups who desire the benefits of marriage may become indignant, or holler about "civil rights." However, lost in this debate is the fact that I am no more allowed to marry a man than a homosexual is, and a homosexual man is not disallowed to marry a woman, as I was not. So, 'rights' are not the issue in an absolute sense, but merely what they mean relative to anyone's "pursuit of happiness" which, for me, does not include a same-sex union.

    It's a difficult issue, but I have thought hard about it and simply cannot reconcile the notion that homosexual unions should be prevented from being recognized by the government with the notion of privacy and personal liberty. I also have trouble finding where injury occurs, since most other limits to liberty and privacy are related to their affects on the liberty and privacy of others...such as the ban on pedophilia. A person may want to be a pederast, but that action causes injury and should be illegal. Where is the injury caused by same sex marriage? How can a small government, privacy-loving conservative reconcile that philosophy with opposition to same-sex marriage? Tradition? Morality? I just don't see it, personally....

  5. #5
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    Great Post Jets5. I am not a fan of Homosexuallity (purely for biological reasons, not moral ones), but I don't see any reason to block their abillity to have some kind of officially sactioned Civil Union (since the State, seperate from religion as it is supposed to be, cannot perform religious marriages, only civil ones).

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Jul 15 2004, 11:36 AM
    [b] Great Post Jets5. I am not a fan of Homosexuallity (purely for biological reasons, not moral ones), but I don't see any reason to block their abillity to have some kind of officially sactioned Civil Union (since the State, seperate from religion as it is supposed to be, cannot perform religious marriages, only civil ones). [/b][/quote]
    This discussion and ban has nothing to do with Homosexuals rights to have civil unions. It involes their right to marry. There is a difference. With "Marriage" implies parental rights. Theres where the question of harming others comes into play 5ever. Is it harmfull to a child to be brought up by same sex parents? Thats the real question at the heart of the matter. 3000 years of civilization has touted the family structure to include a mother and a father. Are we as a society willing to challenge that structural norm?

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by chiefst2000+Jul 15 2004, 11:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (chiefst2000 @ Jul 15 2004, 11:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Warfish[/i]@Jul 15 2004, 11:36 AM
    [b] Great Post Jets5. I am not a fan of Homosexuallity (purely for biological reasons, not moral ones), but I don&#39;t see any reason to block their abillity to have some kind of officially sactioned Civil Union (since the State, seperate from religion as it is supposed to be, cannot perform religious marriages, only civil ones). [/b][/quote]
    This discussion and ban has nothing to do with Homosexuals rights to have civil unions. It involes their right to marry. There is a difference. With "Marriage" implies parental rights. Theres where the question of harming others comes into play 5ever. Is it harmfull to a child to be brought up by same sex parents? Thats the real question at the heart of the matter. 3000 years of civilization has touted the family structure to include a mother and a father. Are we as a society willing to challenge that structural norm? [/b][/quote]
    Chiefs - I state clearly that this debate has little to do with "rights." A gay man and I have the same &#39;rights&#39; to marry women and not marry men. This limitation only affects each of our "pursuits of happiness" in different ways....

    Allowing same-sex unions is not the same as changing the "norm" since the overwhelming majority of unions would remain two-sex. Homosexuals are not even close to being 10% of society, and are likely closer to 1%, IMO.

    That said, I freely admit to not being very happy with the notion of same-sex marriage and do, personally, feel that the ideal and "best" environment for children is with their biological parents. However, even that ideal has flaws, since many parents are not competent or even attentive. Also, we have very high illegitimacy rates in this country. Thirdly, we have very high (historically speaking) divorce rates as well. None of these unfortunate and very real, substantial social problems were created by legislation and would not be solved by legislation. What is better, a child raised by adoptive homosexual parents, who are in a stable and commiteed union, or a child raised by a single parent, a divorced set of parents, or by elderly grandparents? However, homosexual marriages would likely have similar divorce rates as hetero, so the same problems are encountered, regardless of the composition of the union.

    The traditional nuclear family as the dominant circumstance has changed, and, depending on your view about it, "evolved" or "devolved." I passionately and intensely feel that it has devolved and horribly so, but not because of sexual morals, but because of selfishness of adults, their lack of accountability and duty, and the loss of shame as a useful tool in society. Being a bad parent is simply not shameful anymore, and it should be. We have transferred the blame for individual failings from the individual, to the "society" in general, and thus anyone whose children are monsters or who fail to support them adequately can whine about being victimized in some way or antoher, and these people can usually find sympathetic ears, or a behavioral diagnosis from an "expert" than rationalizes why their bratty kid won&#39;t shut up in class. Also, when families break down, support systems break down, and what was once handled by communities and extended families, is now handled by "day care" or "social workers" or whatever. Necessary roles as they are, they are certainly contributory. However, many states currently allow homosexuals to adopt children, and practically, if any single person desire to adopt a child, his or her sexual preferences really have nothing to do with that evaluation process...especially if, for example, a homosexual woman gets impregnated by a male friend or inseminated. Who is the government to tell them they cannot raise their own child because they get turned on by things that most people of their sex do not?

    It is more complex than simply staing that same-sex marriages fall short of an ideal and are thus bad, especially since I haven&#39;t seen any reliable or long-term data which suggests that children raised in same-sex households, or by homosexual individuals, are any "worse off" than children in comparable circumstances rasied by straight people or two-sex unions.

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    they really need to ban gay marriage, it makes our country look like a bunch of friggen pansys



    I don&#39;t like that

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by ErIcBaRtOn54[/i]@Jul 15 2004, 01:53 PM
    [b] they really need to ban gay marriage, it makes our country look like a bunch of friggen pansys



    I don&#39;t like that [/b][/quote]
    amen

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever+Jul 15 2004, 11:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (jets5ever @ Jul 15 2004, 11:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -chiefst2000@Jul 15 2004, 11:41 AM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--Warfish[/i]@Jul 15 2004, 11:36 AM
    [b] Great Post Jets5. I am not a fan of Homosexuallity (purely for biological reasons, not moral ones), but I don&#39;t see any reason to block their abillity to have some kind of officially sactioned Civil Union (since the State, seperate from religion as it is supposed to be, cannot perform religious marriages, only civil ones). [/b][/quote]
    This discussion and ban has nothing to do with Homosexuals rights to have civil unions. It involes their right to marry. There is a difference. With "Marriage" implies parental rights. Theres where the question of harming others comes into play 5ever. Is it harmfull to a child to be brought up by same sex parents? Thats the real question at the heart of the matter. 3000 years of civilization has touted the family structure to include a mother and a father. Are we as a society willing to challenge that structural norm? [/b][/quote]
    Chiefs - I sTate clearly that this debate has little to do with "rights." A gay man and I have the same &#39;rights&#39; to marry women and not marry men. This limitation only affects each of our "pursuits of happiness" in different ways....

    Allowing same-sex unions is not the same as changing the "norm" since the overwhelming majority of unions would remain two-sex. Homosexuals are not even close to being 10% of society, and are likely closer to 1%, IMO.

    That said, I freely admit to not being very happy with the notion of same-sex marriage and do, personally, feel that the ideal and "best" environment for children is with their biological parents. However, even that ideal has flaws, since many parents are not competent or even attentive. Also, we have very high illegitimacy rates in this country. Thirdly, we have very high (historically speaking) divorce rates as well. None of these unfortunate and very real, substantial social problems were created by legislation and would not be solved by legislation. What is better, a child raised by adoptive homosexual parents, who are in a stable and commiteed union, or a child raised by a single parent, a divorced set of parents, or by elderly grandparents? However, homosexual marriages would likely have similar divorce rates and hetero, so the same problems are encountered, regardless of the composition.

    The nuclear family has changed, and, depending on your view about it, "evolved" or "devolved." I passiontaly and intensely feel that it has devolved and horribly so, but not because of sexual morals, but because of selfishness and the loss of shame as a useful tool in society. However, many states currently allow homosexuals to adopt children, and practically, if any single person desire to adopt a child, his or her sexual preferences really have nothing to do with that evaluation process...especially if, for example, a homosexual woman gets impregnated by a male friend or inseminated. Who is the government to tell them they cannot raise their own child because they get turned on by things that most people of their sex do not?

    It is more complex than simply staing that same-sex marriages fall short of an ideal and are thus bad, especially since I haven&#39;t seen any reliable or long-term data which suggests that children raised in same-sex households, or by homosexual individuals, are any "worse off" than children in comparable circumstances rasied by straight people or two-sex unions. [/b][/quote]
    I&#39;m not making judgements just pointing out the arguments. When it comes down to it the main issue is whether or not a pair of homosexual men should be allowed to adopt a child. Simple as that.

  11. #11
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    [quote][b]Is it harmfull to a child to be brought up by same sex parents? [/b][/quote]

    I will counter that question with one of my own:

    Which is more harmful to Children in your view?

    Being unwanted and in poverty in the "System", where tens of thousands of children sit waiting to be adopted.......

    Or a child being adopted into a non-traditional, but loving, family of a same-sex union.

    There is absolutely no medical/phsycological proof that being raised in a same-sex home causes ANY mental or emotional problems (other than liberalism, LOL&#33;) However, growing up in a litany of Foster Homes or on the Street HAS been proven to damage children.

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    you must be kidding warfish. if the kids at his school found out that his parents adopted him they would make fun of him, but imagine what they would do if both is parents were of the same sex&#33;&#33;&#33; LOL

    they would beat the crap out of that kid whether he be a boy or a girl (who they&#39;d tease)


    and being bullied and teased is harmful to kids.

    I would have killed myself and my parents if I was adopted by two faggots. it isn&#39;t right, it is just wrong

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    [quote][b]This discussion and ban has nothing to do with Homosexuals rights to have civil unions. It involes their right to marry. There is a difference. With "Marriage" implies parental rights. Theres where the question of harming others comes into play 5ever. Is it harmfull to a child to be brought up by same sex parents? Thats the real question at the heart of the matter. 3000 years of civilization has touted the family structure to include a mother and a father. Are we as a society willing to challenge that structural norm?
    [/b][/quote]

    Having a constitutional amendment banning gay marriages has nothing to do with gay people adopting children. As 5ever pointed out they are already permitted to do so in many states, and lesbians, especially, can easily conceive either through natural or invetro. The issue is about allowing a gay couple to have the same rights under the law. My father is a lawyer and he was telling me about a case he is working on. It involves a lesbian woman who dies, she had a lot of money, the family sued the lesbian widow and is trying to inherit all the money even though they already received a sizable sum.

    [quote][b]I would have killed myself and my parents if I was adopted by two faggots. it isn&#39;t right, it is just wrong [/b][/quote]

    No you would have grown up tolerant of gay people. Most of us like to think that if we were brought up in different circumstances we would still act and think the same way. Maybe you should read Pudd&#39;nhead Wilson by Mark Twain.

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    I really don&#39;t get this whole debate..Again, you can thank religious nut for f-ing up the world for sane people...I have a few gay friends..And, honestly, I never ever think about gay people..i couldn&#39;t give a crap who gets married...what is the big deal&#33;
    Will civilization stop as we know it&#33;
    NOT ALL straight people get married...
    gays make up like what, 10% of the overall population...MAYBE, 3 % of them will actually get married&#33; WHO CARES..I cannot belive that a-hole bush..
    why can&#39;t gays enjoy the same benfits of society as the rest of us...
    Bush is such a total hypocrit...he talks about Freedom and hope..Yet he promotes a prejudiced agenda..

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by ErIcBaRtOn54[/i]@Jul 15 2004, 12:37 PM
    [b] I would have killed myself and my parents if I was adopted by two faggots. it isn&#39;t right, it is just wrong [/b][/quote]
    Your time machine is downstairs, waiting to take you back home to 1930&#39;s Germany.....

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by ErIcBaRtOn54[/i]@Jul 15 2004, 11:37 AM
    [b] I would have killed myself and my parents if I was adopted by two faggots. it isn&#39;t right, it is just wrong [/b][/quote]
    Wow, I was starting to gain a little bit of respect for you then you spew that crap out. Why do some people have to be so narrow minded? What are your feelings on mixed race marriages? I probably don&#39;t even want to know.

  17. #17
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by ErIcBaRtOn54[/i]@Jul 15 2004, 11:37 AM
    [b] you must be kidding warfish. if the kids at his school found out that his parents adopted him they would make fun of him, but imagine what they would do if both is parents were of the same sex&#33;&#33;&#33; LOL

    they would beat the crap out of that kid whether he be a boy or a girl (who they&#39;d tease)


    [/b][/quote]
    Well all that goes back to the heterosexual parents. If they are all narrowminded like you and teach their kids to hate what is different then yes the kid is going to get harrassed. If parents pulled their heads out of their asses there wouldn&#39;t be any problems.

  18. #18
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by ErIcBaRtOn54[/i]@Jul 15 2004, 10:53 AM
    [b] they really need to ban gay marriage, it makes our country look like a bunch of friggen pansys



    I don&#39;t like that [/b][/quote]
    I don&#39;t particularly like you or your views yet you&#39;re still here. Maybe they should ban you too.

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    I don&#39;t care about a white and a black marrying, why? because I do not care what color you are, it does not matter to me at all. I think it is fine


    not adam and steve, it is adam and eve

  20. #20
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by ErIcBaRtOn54[/i]@Jul 15 2004, 04:39 PM
    [b] I don&#39;t care about a white and a black marrying, why? because I do not care what color you are, it does not matter to me at all. I think it is fine


    not adam and steve, it is adam and eve [/b][/quote]
    Oh so it&#39;s just a bible thing. I seem to remember seeing that phrase on a Fred Phelps picket sign. Are you a member?

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