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Thread: A Question Sure to Get me in Trouble

  1. #1
    OK, I am going to try VERY hard not to phrase this in the "Still Beating Your Wife" way many have claimed I post these kind of questions....seriously, I AM trying.

    OK......

    Does the revelation today from the US Millitary that there were a total of 94 Alleged instances of Prisoner Abuse by U.S. Soldiers in Iraq & Afganistan, with 40 of those alleged cases resulting in the death of the prisoner, change the opinion of anyone here on this particular issue?

    While I could care less about panty-head "torture", abuse that results in the death of a captured enemy is murder, period. And while I am sure some (if not all) of the enemies captured deserved a horrible painful death, we are supposed to be a more Moral nation, a nation that does not do that kind of thing.

    On the bright side, the Millitary was reportedly investigating these allegation well before the Media got ahold of them, and has taken all the right steps to address the problem and punish those who broke the rules/regulations/law.

    So does this news change anyones opinion at all, or no?

  2. #2
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Jul 22 2004, 11:57 PM
    [b] While I could care less about panty-head "torture", abuse that results in the death of a captured enemy is murder, period. or no? [/b][/quote]
    Terrorists wear no uniforms and hail from many different countries!
    The Geneva Rules do not apply to them!Do I really care if some Die?
    Not really..That means there will be less of them to kill Coalition
    Troops!! Way to go Fish! The Terrorist's need a Advocate like you!
    Ramsey Clarke is busy this week!! :lol:

  3. #3
    Why publicize stories about torture? I mean isnt that going to incite more beheadings??

    LL

  4. #4
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Jul 22 2004, 11:57 PM
    [b] Does the revelation today from the US Millitary that there were a total of 94 Alleged instances of Prisoner Abuse by U.S. Soldiers in Iraq & Afganistan, with 40 of those alleged cases resulting in the death of the prisoner, change the opinion of anyone here on this particular issue?
    ...
    So does this news change anyones opinion at all, or no? [/b][/quote]
    I'll answer your question, with a thought provoking question of my own: in the 16 months since the war began, how many American citizens have been killed by American thugs? Bet it's way more than 40.

    When I hear that 40 iraqi/terrorist INSURGENTS have been killed in captivity, I feel the same way that I did when I heard jeoffrey dahmer got shanked in the shower.

    War is hell -- maybe next time they'll think before they stir up the American hornets nest.

  5. #5
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Jul 22 2004, 11:57 PM
    [b] OK, I am going to try VERY hard not to phrase this in the "Still Beating Your Wife" way many have claimed I post these kind of questions....seriously, I AM trying.

    OK......

    Does the revelation today from the US Millitary that there were a total of 94 Alleged instances of Prisoner Abuse by U.S. Soldiers in Iraq & Afganistan, with 40 of those alleged cases resulting in the death of the prisoner, change the opinion of anyone here on this particular issue?

    While I could care less about panty-head "torture", abuse that results in the death of a captured enemy is murder, period. And while I am sure some (if not all) of the enemies captured deserved a horrible painful death, we are supposed to be a more Moral nation, a nation that does not do that kind of thing.

    On the bright side, the Millitary was reportedly investigating these allegation well before the Media got ahold of them, and has taken all the right steps to address the problem and punish those who broke the rules/regulations/law.

    So does this news change anyones opinion at all, or no? [/b][/quote]
    I think anyone convicted of illegal behavior should be punished. What issue should that change my opinion on?

  6. #6
    [quote][b]What issue should that change my opinion on?
    [/b][/quote]

    I guess no issue.

  7. #7
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    Fisher Price -

    There are two reactiosn that I have.

    1) [b]My own visceral reaction.[/b] I don't much care that members of terrorist groups have been killed or even mistreated or even murdered in captivity, especially when the majority the sufferers of this abuse are part of the same club that kidnaps truckers and cuts their heads off. As far as the abuse in Afghanistan, 3000 Americans were killed brutally by members of this organization, I don't have sympathy. How many prisoners total were captured, and what % does 94 or 40 represent? Also, I tend to be skeptical about the data in these reports (especially concerning mere [i]allegations[/i]) until more information, perspective and supported data is available. How many captives were already severely injured prior to capture, and died in captivity due to the injuries? How many were healthy as oxes when captured, and simply tortured to death, how many allegations are simply unfounded? What constitutes "abuse?" I don't know, but it makes a difference. Prisoners die in war, and abuse has been a long-standing menthod of interrogation. Additionally, this is not an army that wears a uniform, or fights "fair" in a traditional sense. Sure, the USA uses brutal force and drops bombs and I agree that people have a right to defend themselves as they see fit. However, taking actions like hiding behind women while you shoot, storing weapons in a school or mosque, carrying out suicide attacks on civilans, using an ambulence to carry out a suicide bomb, etc, are going to engender a fierce response, especially since they brought this war on themselves by aiding groups that murder infants in Israel, and US citizens in NYC and DC. If US soldiers broke the law, they should be punished. If higher-ups told them to, they should be punished. But my visceral reaction to this news is almost a complete indifference, actually.


    2) [b]My reaction in terms of what the ramifications of this story are and its relationship to the success of the war. [/b] It's a PR disaster, obviously. Even if untrue, or, IMO, wildly over-blown, the perception of rampant abuse and the constant harping about Abu Ghraib is certainly not helping our cause, and the obvious actions that have been caught on camera are mistakes [i]at best[/i]. I also think the constant display of these images by the media is transparently an attempt to injure George Bush, since similar images of be-heading and 9-11 carnage are almost never shown. I think abuse likely went on during the 1991 Gulf War and occurs on both sides in all wars. We know it did in WWII, our most "noble" of wars. Our soldiers are trained to kill and the constant violence they see for months at a time, including the brutal deaths of their brothers in arms, likely desensitizes them to mistreatment, especially if it occurs at the expense of those who are trying to kill them. Does that excuse it? No. But it's human nature, and I think it is unavoidable, sadly. The soldiers in our army who break the law get investigated and imprisoned. The soldiers in their "army" who do analogous things likely get rewarded.

  8. #8
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Jul 23 2004, 02:49 PM
    [b] Fisher Price -

    There are two reactiosn that I have.

    1) [b]My own visceral reaction.[/b] I don't much care that members of terrorist groups have been killed or even mistreated or even murdered in captivity, especially when the majority the sufferers of this abuse are part of the same club that kidnaps truckers and cuts their heads off. As far as the abuse in Afghanistan, 3000 Americans were killed brutally by members of this organization, I don't have sympathy. How many prisoners total were captured, and what % does 94 or 40 represent? Also, I tend to be skeptical about the data in these reports (especially concerning mere [i]allegations[/i]) until more information, perspective and supported data is available. How many captives were already severely injured prior to capture, and died in captivity due to the injuries? How many were healthy as oxes when captured, and simply tortured to death, how many allegations are simply unfounded? What constitutes "abuse?" I don't know, but it makes a difference. Prisoners die in war, and abuse has been a long-standing menthod of interrogation. Additionally, this is not an army that wears a uniform, or fights "fair" in a traditional sense. Sure, the USA uses brutal force and drops bombs and I agree that people have a right to defend themselves as they see fit. However, taking actions like hiding behind women while you shoot, storing weapons in a school or mosque, carrying out suicide attacks on civilans, using an ambulence to carry out a suicide bomb, etc, are going to engender a fierce response, especially since they brought this war on themselves by aiding groups that murder infants in Israel, and US citizens in NYC and DC. If US soldiers broke the law, they should be punished. If higher-ups told them to, they should be punished. But my visceral reaction to this news is almost a complete indifference, actually.


    2) [b]My reaction in terms of what the ramifications of this story are and its relationship to the success of the war. [/b] It's a PR disaster, obviously. Even if untrue, or, IMO, wildly over-blown, the perception of rampant abuse and the constant harping about Abu Ghraib is certainly not helping our cause, and the obvious actions that have been caught on camera are mistakes [i]at best[/i]. I also think the constant display of these images by the media is transparently an attempt to injure George Bush, since similar images of be-heading and 9-11 carnage are almost never shown. I think abuse likely went on during the 1991 Gulf War and occurs on both sides in all wars. We know it did in WWII, our most "noble" of wars. Our soldiers are trained to kill and the constant violence they see for months at a time, including the brutal deaths of their brothers in arms, likely desensitizes them to mistreatment, especially if it occurs at the expense of those who are trying to kill them. Does that excuse it? No. But it's human nature, and I think it is unavoidable, sadly. The soldiers in our army who break the law get investigated and imprisoned. The soldiers in their "army" who do analogous things likely get rewarded. [/b][/quote]
    Do you feel that the U.S.A. should play by "rules" equal to our enemies in this war, or to a higher standard?

  9. #9
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    A higher standard. I think we do play and are already playing by a higher standard, even in light of these allegations, and the events at Abu Ghraib.

    My standard, however, is not perfection.

  10. #10
    Warfish,

    This romantic idea of playing to a higher standard than our enemies is nice to aspire to. If one of these terrorists explodes a bomb in our backyard and kills 2-3 million New Yorkers, Californians will you still rattle on about how we should look out for the terrorists.

    Did you ever fight in school? I was taught and I teach my own to repect others and never start trouble with another. But when someone starts BS with you to do WHATEVER IT TAKES! to win. THERE IS NO SUCH THING as a clean fight when talking about Survival, and that's what we're talking about.

    The only thing these animals understand is force and intimidation (Have you heard about the beheadings?).
    Did you see Swordfish, aside from the nice boobie shot that concept of how to fight terrorists by taking it to them and making them feel more pain than they inflict is the only route to take.

    Your pie in the sky concept of what america should be is a great vision for our great country. Save it for the academic world. DO WHAT IT TAKES

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