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Thread: 9-11 commission finally refutes atta meeting

  1. #1
    U.S. policy on Israel key motive for effort

    PLOTTER INVOLVED BIN LADEN TO GAIN MORE RESOURCES

    By Terry McDermott

    LOS ANGELES TIMES


    Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the man who conceived and directed the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, was motivated by his strong disagreement with American support for Israel, said the final report of the Sept. 11 commission.

    Mohammed conceived the initial outline of the attack six years before its execution and brought the plan to al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden because he thought he did not have the resources to carry it out on his own.

    The Sept. 11 report contains the fullest accounting of Mohammed's overarching role from original conception to supervision of details. Bin Laden, too, was fully involved, selecting all or most of the participants, ordering the substance and the location of their training, and contributing to the timing of the attacks and the selection of targets, the report says.

    The report makes a strong case that al-Qaida accomplished the attacks without any hint of state sponsorship. The report also appears to lay to rest the notion, long alluded to by administration officials including Vice President Dick Cheney, that hijacker Mohamed Atta traveled to the Czech Republic to meet an Iraqi intelligence operative in the spring of 2001.

    In addition to repeating evidence that Atta was in the United States at the time, the report revealed that the Iraqi agent was not in Prague either when the meeting was alleged to have occurred.

    Much of the report's detail comes from interrogations of al-Qaida operatives in U.S. custody, including Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh. Some of that information is contradictory; much of it is difficult to corroborate. One CIA analysis cited in the report, for example, is titled "Khalid Shaykh Muhammed's Threat Reporting -- Precious Truths, Surrounded by a Bodyguard of Lies."

  2. #2
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    bman - the CIA has long refuted that meeting, while the Czechs are still adamant that it occurred. Such is the nature of intelligence gathering....

  3. #3
    when the lives of 900 American GIs are at stake ill believe the Czechs over the CIA everytime :blink:

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Jul 23 2004, 09:39 AM
    [b] when the lives of 900 American GIs are at stake ill believe the Czechs over the CIA everytime :blink: [/b][/quote]
    Matt - this doesn't even make sense. And besides, this is but one of MANY links between Iraq and AQ. Have you read the 9-11 Report, or just headlines?

  5. #5
    so many links... as many as between saudi arabia and Al Queda?

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    The commission also unequivocally said there was cooperation between Sadaam and Al-Queda

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Jul 23 2004, 10:27 AM
    [b] so many links... as many as between saudi arabia and Al Queda? [/b][/quote]
    Good question. Here's another - would you have supported an invasion of Saudi Arabia, and not shrieked about "oil!"?

    Saudi Arabia is definintely a country in which terrorism is fomenting. Their government appears (key word, appears) to have altered their stance, and tried to get tough...what with arrests and AQ terrorists (if they are inf fact linked with AQ) kidnapping civilians and threatening to be-head them in exchange for the release of terrorists held by the government. Maybe they are doing enough, likely not. They have a long way to go. However, do you think Saddam could have persuaded to "get tough" with terrorists within his borders? (Spare me the nonsensical argument that there were no terrorists in Iraq, it's beneath you and blatantly argumentative).

    So, aside from your "let's all ride bikes!" isolationism, or your "let's nuke them all!" nonsense, what do we do? You think invading Iraq creates more terrorists and makes the "world community" hate us? What do you think nuking hundreds of millions of arabs would do? How do we apply pressure on ME countries that support terror?

  8. #8
    why would we invade saudi arabia (home to 90% of al qeada and 90% of their financing)..
    We already have a cushy oil deal with them...If somehow that oil money was taken away from houston and sent to paris...then we would invade..

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bman[/i]@Jul 23 2004, 11:12 AM
    [b] why would we invade saudi arabia (home to 90% of al qeada and 90% of their financing)..
    [/b][/quote]
    I would really like to see a link with these numbers. Someone reputable, not you.

  10. #10
    well..if you just look at the actual qeda members who attacked us..then it's actually 75%...14 of 19 were sauds...

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bman[/i]@Jul 23 2004, 12:26 PM
    [b] well..if you just look at the actual qeda members who attacked us..then it's actually 75%...14 of 19 were sauds... [/b][/quote]
    IMO a raghead is a raghead!!! They all love that ALLAH crap!!!!

  12. #12
    the crazy thing is that these nuts trully are brainwashed by religion..They scream in arabic "god is greatest" before killing themselves....they must be stopped..but invading countrys aint the way...that just reinforces their views...
    we must take a look at the true root causes of terrorism...
    POverty, america's unrelenting support of isreal at all costs...america's perceived control and domination of arab oil..
    You can change the gov'ts in every single middle east country,,,that might not solve a damnb thing...winning the hearts and minds is VERY important....there are a billion muslims in the world...they aren't going away...invading countrys won't wins hearts and minds...

  13. #13
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever+Jul 23 2004, 11:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (jets5ever @ Jul 23 2004, 11:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--bitonti[/i]@Jul 23 2004, 10:27 AM
    [b] so many links... as many as between saudi arabia and Al Queda? [/b][/quote]
    Good question. Here&#39;s another - would you have supported an invasion of Saudi Arabia, and not shrieked about "oil&#33;"?

    Saudi Arabia is definintely a country in which terrorism is fomenting. Their government appears (key word, appears) to have altered their stance, and tried to get tough...what with arrests and AQ terrorists (if they are inf fact linked with AQ) kidnapping civilians and threatening to be-head them in exchange for the release of terrorists held by the government. Maybe they are doing enough, likely not. They have a long way to go. However, do you think Saddam could have persuaded to "get tough" with terrorists within his borders? (Spare me the nonsensical argument that there were no terrorists in Iraq, it&#39;s beneath you and blatantly argumentative).

    So, aside from your "let&#39;s all ride bikes&#33;" isolationism, or your "let&#39;s nuke them all&#33;" nonsense, what do we do? You think invading Iraq creates more terrorists and makes the "world community" hate us? What do you think nuking hundreds of millions of arabs would do? How do we apply pressure on ME countries that support terror? [/b][/quote]
    i&#39;ve answered this already

    i would be more in favor of an invasion of Saudi then an invasion of Iraq - but in the end cannot support any military action not formally declared by Congress.

    the question really isn&#39;t what "bitonti" would approve of - the question is what the supporters of the President approve of...

    the fact of the matter is Saudi Arabia has been a long time supporter of Wahhabism - which is the roots of Al)Queda and the islamic extremist worldview - yet these are our allies why? could it be because the American economy runs of Saudi crude? (16% of all oil imports as of 2002 - also they are the "seller of last resort")

    another example is our ally Pakistan - when it comes to cruel dictatorship they are no better than Saddam in Iraq - Monsuraff is a scoundrel. Yet these are our allies?

    my point is people love to paint the conflict as one between good and evil, between right and wrong - in other words - black and white

    when really there are so many shades of gray.... you know it and I know it... im not really talking to you when i bring up our friends the murderous Saudis... im talking to all those who think we are always absolutely 100% on the side of right when it comes to foreign policy

    it is not all that simple.

    ---

    re: what we can do again I have answered that many times and it&#39;s a far more complex answer then Hey everyone lets ride bikes.

  14. #14
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    [b]"Dudes&#33; Check this out&#33; No Blood for Oiiiiilllllllllllllll...."[/b]

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  15. #15
    hey shakin did you hear they found a VP candidate to replace cheney?

    [img]http://www.toscanacharms.com/_borders/Man%20White%20Reduced.gif[/img]

    :lol:

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    Okay, Bit-man...the "let&#39;s ride bikes" line was argumentative...stipulated. Strike it from the record.


    You make some good points....

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Jul 23 2004, 01:13 PM
    [b] hey shakin did you hear they found a VP candidate to replace cheney?

    [img]http://www.toscanacharms.com/_borders/Man%20White%20Reduced.gif[/img]

    :lol: [/b][/quote]
    Those evil business man.

    We need more regulation and government oversight. :blink:

  18. #18
    [quote][i]Originally posted by bman[/i]@Jul 23 2004, 12:41 PM
    [b] the crazy thing is that these nuts trully are brainwashed by religion..They scream in arabic "god is greatest" before killing themselves....they must be stopped..but invading countrys aint the way...that just reinforces their views...
    we must take a look at the true root causes of terrorism...
    POverty, america&#39;s unrelenting support of isreal at all costs...america&#39;s perceived control and domination of arab oil..
    You can change the gov&#39;ts in every single middle east country,,,that might not solve a damnb thing...winning the hearts and minds is VERY important....there are a billion muslims in the world...they aren&#39;t going away...invading countrys won&#39;t wins hearts and minds... [/b][/quote]
    Your the pne brainwashed by your religion. When I mentioned Oriley&#39;s book you responded that you can&#39;t read that. Interesting choice of words. Not i won&#39;t but I can&#39;t. Thats because it goes against your liberal religion. It is you who is intollerant of others. You are the thing that you despise the most. sad.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by chiefst2000+Jul 23 2004, 01:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (chiefst2000 @ Jul 23 2004, 01:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--bman[/i]@Jul 23 2004, 12:41 PM
    [b] the crazy thing is that these nuts trully are brainwashed by religion..They scream in arabic "god is greatest" before killing themselves....they must be stopped..but invading countrys aint the way...that just reinforces their views...
    we must take a look at the true root causes of terrorism...
    POverty, america&#39;s unrelenting support of isreal at all costs...america&#39;s perceived control and domination of arab oil..
    You can change the gov&#39;ts in every single middle east country,,,that might not solve a damnb thing...winning the hearts and minds is VERY important....there are a billion muslims in the world...they aren&#39;t going away...invading countrys won&#39;t wins hearts and minds... [/b][/quote]
    Your the pne brainwashed by your religion. When I mentioned Oriley&#39;s book you responded that you can&#39;t read that. Interesting choice of words. Not i won&#39;t but I can&#39;t. Thats because it goes against your liberal religion. It is you who is intollerant of others. You are the thing that you despise the most. sad. [/b][/quote]
    bman - OBL is a wealthy man. Many of the 9-11 perps were well-to-do and highly educated. You can call our support of Israel "unrelenting" but their aggression towards Israel is also "unrelenting."

    "Invading countries" is also not telling the whole story. We are attempting to establish representative governments in Afghanistan and Iraq. Saddam horded all of the money in Iraq. The Taliban were brutally oppressive. Those conditions create the poverty you seem to decry. You talk about root causes, then mention invasions, as if the fact that setting up representative government isn&#39;t a way to raise the standard of living for those people. Free societies with representative governments and open markets have MUCH higher standards of living than societies that are centrally-controlled and planned, and not democratic in any true sense. Even poor people in America are better off than poor people in most other countries with a different societal structure. It&#39;s the same for most western nations. If you&#39;re going to be "poor" you&#39;d better hope you are "poor" by America&#39;s standards...because chances are you have your own apartment, a car, two cable TVs, a stereo, a Playstation and possibly a computer. We aren&#39;t any smarter or better or harder-working than other people, and our land isn&#39;t unreal compared to the rest of the world. We simply have representative government and free markets. The old Soviet Union had some of the most arable land (and lots of it) that any one nation ever enjoyed, yet they couldn&#39;t even feed themselves.

    Look at the ME - nations have immense income and wealth from oil...yet it never trickles down to the citizems because it is controlled by a small elite group. You can say we "prop up" Dictator X or whatever you want, but the bottom line is that if we stayed out of there, some strongman would sieze power ruhtlessly and dominate...it has happened in that region consistently. The House of Saud may be bad in an absolute sense, but the question is - compared to what, exactly? What person would seize power if we didn&#39;t "prop up" thise guys and what is the likelihood that they&#39;d be better for the USA and their own people and less successful as creating terrorists? Do you think some despot will seize power by force in that country, then immediately start sharing the oil wealth and allowing women to walk around in bikinis, jews and christians to mingle freely among muslims, or start planning representative elections in which they stand a good chance of being removed from the power they struggled to acheive? Until ME muslim arabs look inward and try to change their societies themselves, terrorism will never be eliminated. Until they acknolwegde that Israel has a right to exist, it will never be eliminated. Until then, we will defend ourselves and we will take action against those that we deem to be the worst threats or the biggest enablers of terrorism, through ecomnomic, diplomatic and other pressures, and force, if need be. Prattling on about "hearts and minds" and "root causes" in an abstract sense makes little sense when people are determined to kill you, as does talk about &#39;eliminating" terrorism, as if that impractical goal is even realitisic or acheivable. However, just because perfecttion is unattainable does not mean the endeavor is worthless.

    If a man breaks into your house with a gun and aims it at your head, you&#39;d better hope that you have a bigger gun and better aim and a quicker trigger finger. I doubt you&#39;d be interested at that late stage in determining the "root causes" of why that man is now a criminal. Terrorists are already terrorists, and they are already determined to kill Americans. They have been doing so for over 30 years that I can remember, whether we have invaded them or not. You really think if we cut funding from Israel and stopped buying ME oil that religious leaders and zealots over there would stop producing anti-american propoganda?

    People are so willing to attach "righteousness" to the actions of terrorists, yet never to the USA. If terrorists attack us, it is because they have been wronged. Yet, even after 9-11, or the USS Cole, or the 1993 WTC attack, or the marine barracks in Lebanon, or the scores of suicide bombings in Israel, no one ever agrees that WE have a right to be pissed off, or that the Israelis have that same right. No- the benefit of the doubt is ALWAYS given to those people that are trying to kill us, and not extended to those that are trying to protect us. Bravo - your knee-jerk anti-conservatvism and anti-Bush venom now has you vilifying a man with whom you dislike much more relative to a movement that not only wants to and is actively trying to kill you, but is also one of the most tyrannical, homophobic, anti-woman, anti-civil rights (and yes, bman) anti-free speech and anti-separation of church and state philosophies in the modern world.

  20. #20
    Those evil business man.

    We need more regulation and government oversight.

    --------------------
    umm...absolutely&#33;

    not that they are evil but without regulation there is nothing to stop abuse and corruption..
    without Gov&#39;t regulation we would have third world water and air quality, contaminated food supplys and environmental disasters left and right..NOt to mention corporate espinonage and rampant corruption..

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