Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 30

Thread: A rational discussion?

  1. #1
    Kangaroo F*cker
    Guest
    This forum has been out of control with posting by liberal and conservatives alike. I would like to start a rational discussion about this Presidential race.

    My reasons for supporting Kerry:

    -Health care for all
    -Bringing back our allies that we have alienated over the last 3 years
    -Rolling back tax cuts for the top 1%
    -Closing Corporate loop holes (which cost us [i]billions[/i] of dollars a year in lost taxes)

    George W Bush was strong after 9/11, but I question him for not relenting in Iraq. Most of the world have realized that the ivansion of Iraq was a mistake. My problem with him is that he is too stubborn to pull out our troops and let the UN take over. We have lost over 900 troops. That is 900 to many.

    It will be a very telling time in America when the election rolls around in November. The World is watching.

  2. #2
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    1,541
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Gainzo[/i]@Jul 29 2004, 11:48 PM
    [b] This forum has been out of control with posting by liberal and conservatives alike. I would like to start a rational discussion about this Presidential race.

    My reasons for supporting Kerry:

    -Health care for all
    -Bringing back our allies that we have alienated over the last 3 years
    -Rolling back tax cuts for the top 1%
    -Closing Corporate loop holes (which cost us [i]billions[/i] of dollars a year in lost taxes)

    George W Bush was strong after 9/11, but I question him for not relenting in Iraq. Most of the world have realized that the ivansion of Iraq was a mistake. My problem with him is that he is too stubborn to pull out our troops and let the UN take over. We have lost over 900 troops. That is 900 to many.

    It will be a very telling time in America when the election rolls around in November. The World is watching. [/b][/quote]
    Socialized Medicine means higher taxes, lower quality of care, less incentive to become doctors and higher taxes (yes, I put that twice).

    Alienated our Allies? Who? The Germans and the French? Believe me, the Germans love having tens of thousands of US soldiers spending millions of dollars there. Germany will come back. And France is fooling itself, it is not a world power, no matter how hard they try.

    You do realize that the top 1% of taxpayers pay over 75% of all taxes, don't you? Why shouldn't they get a break?

    I agree with you on this, to a point. Many businesses need an incentive not to outsource. Which is something else for the left to scream about.


    Ask the Iraqi people if removing Saddam was a mistake. I'll posit that mistakes were made, such as not trying to secure the borders in Iraq, but the invasion itself was not a mistake.

    Let's let the UN take over, then they can steal oil and money from the Iraqi people again. Good Idea.

    I used to believe that Democrats wanted basically the same thing as Republicans, a better America. Now I see that the left just wants power, at any cost.

  3. #3
    Kangaroo F*cker
    Guest
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Thor99+Jul 30 2004, 01:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Thor99 @ Jul 30 2004, 01:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Gainzo[/i]@Jul 29 2004, 11:48 PM
    [b] This forum has been out of control with posting by liberal and conservatives alike. I would like to start a rational discussion about this Presidential race.

    My reasons for supporting Kerry:

    -Health care for all
    -Bringing back our allies that we have alienated over the last 3 years
    -Rolling back tax cuts for the top 1%
    -Closing Corporate loop holes (which cost us [i]billions[/i] of dollars a year in lost taxes)

    George W Bush was strong after 9/11, but I question him for not relenting in Iraq. Most of the world have realized that the ivansion of Iraq was a mistake. My problem with him is that he is too stubborn to pull out our troops and let the UN take over. We have lost over 900 troops. That is 900 to many.

    It will be a very telling time in America when the election rolls around in November. The World is watching. [/b][/quote]
    Socialized Medicine means higher taxes, lower quality of care, less incentive to become doctors and higher taxes (yes, I put that twice).

    Alienated our Allies? Who? The Germans and the French? Believe me, the Germans love having tens of thousands of US soldiers spending millions of dollars there. Germany will come back. And France is fooling itself, it is not a world power, no matter how hard they try.

    You do realize that the top 1% of taxpayers pay over 75% of all taxes, don&#39;t you? Why shouldn&#39;t they get a break?

    I agree with you on this, to a point. Many businesses need an incentive not to outsource. Which is something else for the left to scream about.


    Ask the Iraqi people if removing Saddam was a mistake. I&#39;ll posit that mistakes were made, such as not trying to secure the borders in Iraq, but the invasion itself was not a mistake.

    Let&#39;s let the UN take over, then they can steal oil and money from the Iraqi people again. Good Idea.

    I used to believe that Democrats wanted basically the same thing as Republicans, a better America. Now I see that the left just wants power, at any cost. [/b][/quote]
    Interesting points Thor.

    -Where are our taxes going? I have no idea.
    -Allies? Yes. The Australian people are pissed off. The Howard Government may lose office over this war.
    -Iraq is not the point. The reason we invaded was because they had WMD&#39;s. Did they? What did they have to do with 9/11?

    Sorry have to go. My Aussie Rules Football team is on Fox Sports World&#33;&#33;

  4. #4
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    1,541
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Gainzo[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 02:03 AM
    [b]
    Interesting points Thor.

    -Where are our taxes going? I have no idea.
    -Allies? Yes. The Australian people are pissed off. The Howard Government may lose office over this war.
    -Iraq is not the point. The reason we invaded was because they had WMD&#39;s. Did they? What did they have to do with 9/11?

    Sorry have to go. My Aussie Rules Football team is on Fox Sports World&#33;&#33; [/b][/quote]
    Where are our Taxes going? I know where I&#39;d rather have them go. I&#39;d rather they went towards national defense than go to welfare, the NEA or socialized medicine. I&#39;d rather keep more of my money to spend the way I want. That is how you stimulate the economy, these latest tax cuts have proven this. Allow people to spend their money themselves. On the other hand, Hillary has the audacity to say, "We&#39;re taking something away from you." Meaning my money. Maybe she can invest for me....

  5. #5
    Kangaroo F*cker
    Guest
    Thor: The question is where do our taxes go? You didn&#39;t answer the question. Where do they go?

    With the current admin our taxes do not go to welfare or medicine. Where do they go??

  6. #6
    Tom The Nader Fan™
    Guest
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Gainzo[/i]@Jul 29 2004, 11:48 PM
    [b] This forum has been out of control with posting by liberal and conservatives alike. I would like to start a rational discussion about this Presidential race.

    My reasons for supporting Kerry:

    -Health care for all
    -Bringing back our allies that we have alienated over the last 3 years
    -Rolling back tax cuts for the top 1%
    -Closing Corporate loop holes (which cost us [i]billions[/i] of dollars a year in lost taxes)

    George W Bush was strong after 9/11, but I question him for not relenting in Iraq. Most of the world have realized that the ivansion of Iraq was a mistake. My problem with him is that he is too stubborn to pull out our troops and let the UN take over. We have lost over 900 troops. That is 900 to many.

    It will be a very telling time in America when the election rolls around in November. The World is watching. [/b][/quote]
    -Health care for all

    Bill Clinton said the same line of crap in &#39;92. I bet you voted for him, too. It didn&#39;t happen though, did it? Can&#39;t afford it, Gainzo. It&#39;s just not gonna happen.

    -Bringing back our allies that we have alienated over the last 3 years

    "Allies" who abandoned us, because they didn&#39;t want us to screw up the status quo. France has been fking us for decades every chance they get. They hate us. If you want a president to kiss their *ss, vote for Kerry.

    -Rolling back tax cuts for the top 1%

    And what exactly will this accomplish? Here&#39;s a novel idea-

    Roll back the spending (And Bush is just as guilty as the worst liberals in Washington, but he&#39;s still a better choice) Speaking of that 1%... Bill Clinton is now a member of that group. The IRS doesn&#39;t force you take the tax cut. You can volunteerily give it back. The only volunteering of money to the government liberals like Clinton and Kerry want to do, is yours and mine.

    A family of four on long island, earning &#036;200,ooo a year, IS NOT RICH.

    -Closing Corporate loop holes (which cost us [i]billions[/i] of dollars a year in lost taxes)

    Well, then you and you&#39;re peers need to stop sending so many lawyers to washington. take a look at the loop holes John Kerry, Teresa Heinz, and John Edwards have exploited over the years. You don&#39;t get that rich playing by the rules, Gainzo. I could post some links, but you wouldn&#39;t read them any way. You saw Fahrenhiet 9-11, and thats all you need to know.


    "George W Bush was strong after 9/11, but I question him for not relenting in Iraq. Most of the world have realized that the ivansion of Iraq was a mistake. My problem with him is that he is too stubborn to pull out our troops and let the UN take over. We have lost over 900 troops. That is 900 to many."

    This is silly on too many levels. George Tenet said "its a slam dunk". Tony Blair got the same information. France and Germany didn&#39;t bail on us because they knew better (in fact they knew he had them because they were supplying him with the technology), they thought Sadaam had WMD&#39;s, too, but bailed because they had a nice billion dollar kickback scheme going with good ol&#39; Kofi Anan and the UN. Nobody was fking the Iraqi people more than the UN. But John Kerry thinks they are neat.

    John Kerry is a dangerous man.

    Was I rational?

  7. #7
    Hall Of Fame
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    10,475
    Post Thanks / Like
    To provide health care for all, will require much higher taxes. I am against this. If somone wants health care its very easy to obtain. JUST GET A JOB AND YOU WILL HAVE HEALTH CARE.

  8. #8
    All League
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    717
    Post Thanks / Like
    I wasn&#39;t thrilled voting for Bush 4 years ago, I am a McCain guy. So I will vote for Kerry, just for a change.

    I am a Republican, I am not voting for Bush.

  9. #9
    All League
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    717
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jetman67[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 08:10 AM
    [b] To provide health care for all, will require much higher taxes. I am against this. If somone wants health care its very easy to obtain. JUST GET A JOB AND YOU WILL HAVE HEALTH CARE. [/b][/quote]
    My mother was a nurse for 25+ years working in the operating room recovery, saving lives, living in the blood and guts of people. On call 24 hours a day most of the time.

    When she was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer, she was informed that Sloan-Kettering would not accept her insurance, so she was foced to use her nest egg for her retirement to pay for the best chance for her to survive, or let some hack her insurance company had a deal with take care of her.

    Things aren&#39;t always so black and white.

  10. #10
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,587
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Gainzo[/i]@Jul 29 2004, 11:48 PM
    [b] This forum has been out of control with posting by liberal and conservatives alike. I would like to start a rational discussion about this Presidential race.

    My reasons for supporting Kerry:

    -Health care for all
    -Bringing back our allies that we have alienated over the last 3 years
    -Rolling back tax cuts for the top 1%
    -Closing Corporate loop holes (which cost us [i]billions[/i] of dollars a year in lost taxes)

    George W Bush was strong after 9/11, but I question him for not relenting in Iraq. Most of the world have realized that the ivansion of Iraq was a mistake. My problem with him is that he is too stubborn to pull out our troops and let the UN take over. We have lost over 900 troops. That is 900 to many.

    It will be a very telling time in America when the election rolls around in November. The World is watching. [/b][/quote]
    I&#39;d be happy to try to continue with the conversation in a reasonable tone. That said I would like to address some of your issues.

    [b]-Health care for all[/b] Many eurpean countries have this. Those countries are plagued by incredibly high taxes and extremely poor medical services. Going to the doctor there is similar to a NJ trip to the DMV. Hours and hours of waiting and when they finally get in to see a doctor the service it terrible. Because of those incredibly high taxes those countries have zero groth in their economies. America is the greatest economy on earth (for now). Socialism doesn&#39;t work. Oh, and by the way don&#39;t be fooled. Everyone in America can get healthcare. They just have to go to the publc hospital rather than the comfy doctors office you probablly go to.

    [b]-Bringing back our allies that we have alienated over the last 3 years[/b] A valid argument. I&#39;d argue that their the ones who should be trying to get back in our good graces. Keep in mind that France and Germany are currently trying to position the EU as the competing superpower with the US. It is in their interest to see us weakened.

    [b]-Rolling back tax cuts for the top 1%[/b] "I&#39;m for higher taxes for everyone but me."


    Gainzo, there are many other critical issues in this election. I suggest you keep an open mind and hold off on making decisions untill the debates.

  11. #11
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,611
    Post Thanks / Like
    Health Care for all, while a noble goal, goes against the basic capitalist tenents America was founded on. Universal Health Care is a Socialist/Communist theory, and it does not work in practice (Trust me, my Mother lives in Ireland, and has multiple medical issues. Her level of care there is pathetic).

    I think our "allies" should be looked at VERY closely for their actual worth to the USA. France, for example, is worthless to us in so many ways. It is simply not in our interests to change our policies in any way to make them happy.

    Rolling Back Tax Cuts for the Top 1% NEVER just effects the 1%. It effects the middle Class (Like me) just as badly, it always does. So while the elite pay a little extra (and never notice) I end up paying alot more and I DO notice.

    A better idea is to cut spending, especially on Welfare and the War in Iraq:

    It is proven that Welfare does an amazingly poor job of helping people. It creates a Welfare state when hard working Americans support those who choose not to work, or choose to have 12 kids when they are unemployed. I&#39;m sorry, but Welfare is another Communist idea that doesn;t work in a capitalist society.

    And I am sick of all the money we are spending to "help the Iraqi&#39;s". Know what, I think the US needs to roll back ALL of it&#39;s international aid, to EVERY country that currently gets it. When we cannot afford to defend our border, we should not be sending 6 Billion a year to Israel, Iraq, or Egypt (or anywhere else). America first, everything else is secondary.

    The War on Terror has been too expensive for the results it&#39;s gotten. Defneding America IS the main priority, but we are simply not doing it right. We are spending Billions to help people who are not Americans and leaving our own people vulnerable to attack. It is simple dumb luck that we havn&#39;t been hit again since 9/11.

    I say get out of Iraq ASAP, get the U.N. to foot the bill and the forces, and get our boys (and our money) home. Use those boys and money to defend the U.S.

    Closing Corporate Loopholes (amorphous concept that it is) is another noble idea. But neither party will ever be interested in it, as they are too closely tied, funding wise, with those same corporations. Plus, I&#39;d rather give Govt. money to a company so they will stay in the USA, stay employing USA citizens, and keep our economy healthy. I think THAt is a better use of Govt money than giving it to some uneducated lazy welfare Mom and her litter of children (all with different fathers of course, none of which are present).

  12. #12
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,587
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 10:23 AM
    [b] Health Care for all, while a noble goal, goes against the basic capitalist tenents America was founded on. Universal Health Care is a Socialist/Communist theory, and it does not work in practice (Trust me, my Mother lives in Ireland, and has multiple medical issues. Her level of care there is pathetic).

    I think our "allies" should be looked at VERY closely for their actual worth to the USA. France, for example, is worthless to us in so many ways. It is simply not in our interests to change our policies in any way to make them happy.

    Rolling Back Tax Cuts for the Top 1% NEVER just effects the 1%. It effects the middle Class (Like me) just as badly, it always does. So while the elite pay a little extra (and never notice) I end up paying alot more and I DO notice.

    A better idea is to cut spending, especially on Welfare and the War in Iraq:

    It is proven that Welfare does an amazingly poor job of helping people. It creates a Welfare state when hard working Americans support those who choose not to work, or choose to have 12 kids when they are unemployed. I&#39;m sorry, but Welfare is another Communist idea that doesn;t work in a capitalist society.

    And I am sick of all the money we are spending to "help the Iraqi&#39;s". Know what, I think the US needs to roll back ALL of it&#39;s international aid, to EVERY country that currently gets it. When we cannot afford to defend our border, we should not be sending 6 Billion a year to Israel, Iraq, or Egypt (or anywhere else). America first, everything else is secondary.

    The War on Terror has been too expensive for the results it&#39;s gotten. Defneding America IS the main priority, but we are simply not doing it right. We are spending Billions to help people who are not Americans and leaving our own people vulnerable to attack. It is simple dumb luck that we havn&#39;t been hit again since 9/11.

    I say get out of Iraq ASAP, get the U.N. to foot the bill and the forces, and get our boys (and our money) home. Use those boys and money to defend the U.S.

    Closing Corporate Loopholes (amorphous concept that it is) is another noble idea. But neither party will ever be interested in it, as they are too closely tied, funding wise, with those same corporations. Plus, I&#39;d rather give Govt. money to a company so they will stay in the USA, stay employing USA citizens, and keep our economy healthy. I think THAt is a better use of Govt money than giving it to some uneducated lazy welfare Mom and her litter of children (all with different fathers of course, none of which are present). [/b][/quote]
    This is a very good post Fish Meister. Well done. I&#39;ll hold back on criticising the isolationist paragraph because I so enjoyed the rest of it.

  13. #13
    Jets Insider VIP
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Posts
    31,407
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][b]-Health care for all[/b][/quote] While a good idea you&#39;d first have to cap the salaries of doctors and surgeons, which will never happen as well as cap lawsuits. Lawsuits, especially frivilous ones, are a major expense of health costs. The MSA&#39;s proposed by the President are the best and most efficient way to give everyone health insurance.....put away money for medical costs, deduct that money from your GI, let it grow tax deferred then use it for general doctors visits, prescriptions, etc. Supplement that with a relatively inexpensive hospitalization/major medical plan.

    [quote][b]-Bringing back our allies that we have alienated over the last 3 years [/b][/quote] Which of our "allies" that are trully helping us have we alienated?? Pleeeze educate me&#33; All I hear from the democrats is after 9-11 the world was with us but we have since aliented our "friends". The fact is, besides Germany none of our "friends" (France/Russia/etc) sent troops into Afgahnistan to help us after all the [i]goodwill [/i] they expressed after 9-11. This is a stale argument and it is more than a little ironic that most of the countries fiercely by our side (Bulgaria, eastern bloc nations) are the ones who&#39;ve experienced freedom for the shortest amount of time. I&#39;ve said this before; I&#39;ve personally visited the graves of Americans who died for freedom in Europe in countries like France. There are also cemetaries around the world in the Philipines, the pacific rim and all over Europe.. Where are the cemetaries for our "friends" who died helping defend America?

    [quote][b]-Rolling back tax cuts for the top 1%[/b][/quote] To my mind a crazy idea and I&#39;m not near the top 1% income earner. How can one justify saying "okay, everyone pays 20% taxes but those who have have a lot of money (usually because they took a major risk and/or worked their ass of) you must pay 40% in taxes&#33;"....that&#39;s American? Fact is they mislead everyone when they say "tax cuts are for the rich" which is horsesh&#33;t. The percentages are the same but since the rich pay so much more in taxes a 5% reduction in taxes means dollar wise they are going to get more back.


    [quote][b]-Closing Corporate loop holes (which cost us billions of dollars a year in lost taxes)[/b][/quote] Noble idea but tough too implement. Here&#39;s why: Company ABC has offices in New York City and 40% of their gross revenue goes to rent, taxes, expenses. A developer across the river in New Jersey tells the CEO of company ABC he will build a complex for them 10 miles away in NJ and if they move their operations they will reduce expenses to only 30% of gross revenue...does New York City let them walk or offer them incentives knowing the tax and revenue generated by the company and employees (city taxes on income, commuting fees using the subway, buying lunch, breakfast, etc) will more than off-set the incentives given? Likewise for major corporations who may look to do business in other countries. Factor this in with trying to give everyone health insurance and you&#39;re looking at govement sponsored medical plans.

  14. #14
    All League
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    717
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][b]The fact is, besides Germany none of our "friends" (France/Russia/etc) sent troops into Afgahnistan to help us after all the goodwill they expressed after 9-11[/b][/quote]

    Canada sent troops. FYI

  15. #15
    Jets Insider VIP
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Posts
    31,407
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by ShadeTree#55[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 11:47 AM
    [b] [quote][b]The fact is, besides Germany none of our "friends" (France/Russia/etc) sent troops into Afgahnistan to help us after all the goodwill they expressed after 9-11[/b][/quote]

    Canada sent troops. FYI [/b][/quote]
    And we&#39;ve alientated Canada? The majority of Canadians are mortified by the response of their goverment and former french leader Chretian to America. Just ask Titan62.

  16. #16
    All League
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    717
    Post Thanks / Like
    40% of young Canadians think Ameica is "Evil" what do you think?

  17. #17
    Jets Insider VIP
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Posts
    31,407
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by ShadeTree#55[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 12:05 PM
    [b] 40% of young Canadians think Ameica is "Evil" what do you think? [/b][/quote]
    Are you asking me if I think America is evil or are you asking me if I give an f^q about what they think?

    The answer to both is no.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    bangor, maine
    Posts
    2,860
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by ShadeTree#55[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 12:05 PM
    [b] 40% of young Canadians think Ameica is "Evil" what do you think? [/b][/quote]
    40% of canadians are inbred retards

    Stats can be use for anything

  19. #19
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    NB, Canada
    Posts
    370
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Come Back to NY[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 11:56 AM
    [b] And we&#39;ve alientated Canada? The majority of Canadians are mortified by the response of their goverment and former french leader Chretian to America. Just ask Titan62. [/b][/quote]
    The libs&#39; behaviour and negative attitude toward the US is unprofessional, undiplomatic and unacceptable in the eyes of many/most here in Canada. The libs&#39; definition of what it is to be Canadian is a mistruth. The way they treat the US is very unCanadian. For an example of reality in what it is to be Canadian, look up how the stranded air travellers were treated in Newfoundland during the Sept 11 tragedy. THAT is what it is to be Canadian and NOT what we/you see from our lib government via our lib biased media.

    With respect to alienation, who alienated who when they wouldn&#39;t even offer moral support? I couldn&#39;t wait until chretien was out of office. Martin is almost as bad though.

    The Conservatives north of the border have an uphill battle.

  20. #20
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    1,541
    Post Thanks / Like
    Does anybody have that article that made it&#39;s way around after 9/11, written by a Canadian? It was about how the US always lends a hand around the world and never asks for anything in return. I believe it was written long before 9/11 though.

    If anyone has a link to that it would be greatly appreciated.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us