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Thread: A rational discussion?

  1. #21
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by blackout806+Jul 30 2004, 12:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (blackout806 @ Jul 30 2004, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ShadeTree#55[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 12:05 PM
    [b] 40% of young Canadians think Ameica is "Evil" what do you think? [/b][/quote]
    40% of canadians are inbred retards

    Stats can be use for anything [/b][/quote]
    Canada is a good place, don&#39;t believe the media representation. And to there credit they may bust fat-ass for breaking the law and interfereing with elections:

    [quote][b]After making a movie decrying the alleged Saudi influence over President Bush, Michael Moore may himself be charged with meddling in another country?s politics.?

    While promoting Fahrenheit 9/11 last month in Toronto, Moore said, ?I really need you to make sure that [Conservative Party leader Stephen] Harper does not take over the Prime Ministership. Why would you like to be like us? ? We?re trying to get rid of our conservative, you know. We?re going one way, you guys shouldn?t be going the other.?

    Ordinarily, this wouldn?t have prompted a reaction. But Moore made his comments during a hotly-contested federal election just a month after the Supreme Court had upheld an election gag law barring citizens from spending more &#036;3,000 in a?local election?or &#036;150,000 nationally to express their views.

    The law also makes it a crime for foreigners to ?during an election period, in any way induce electors to vote or refrain from voting? for a particular candidate.? That?s where Kasra Nejatian, president of the Ontario Campus Conservatives, saw his opening.

    Nejatian collected over 2,000 signatures on a petition to have Moore charged with violating the Elections Act (Lest he be accused of hypocrisy, he ensured they were all Canadians). Yesterday, he filed a complaint with Elections Canada.

    ?It?s a draconian law that has no place in a democracy,? Nejatian said, noting that right-wing Canadians have often run afoul of selectively enforced gag laws. ?But so long as it exists it ought to be apply equally to conservatives, liberals and socialist multi-millionaires.?

    Especially socialist multi-millionaires who, like Moore, have campaigned for other gag laws.

    ?For me it?s a win-win situation. Either we succeed with the charges and we shut Michael Moore?s loud mouth for a little bit or the law is declared unconstitutional and the government will have to repeal it.?

    Nejatian has hired Calgary lawyer Jonathan Denis to force the government to lay a charge or scrap the law and said he?ll pursue the case to the Supreme Court if necessary.

    It is sheer lunacy to political speech during an election, even speech which is emanating from Michael Moore. However, Nejatian?s paradoxical plan to use a law he finds abhorrent to charge Moore may just play right into Moore?s hands

    Moore has made a career playing the little guy who speaks truth to power, even if power continually declines his request for an interview and needs to be ambushed at home. He used Miramax?s refusal to distribute the film to allege censorship and the Citizen?s United complaint that he was violating the McCain-Feingold campaign-finance laws to garner more publicity. Imagine what he?ll do when he faces the prospect of six months in a Canadian jail.

    Fortunately for Moore (and anyone with whom he might have to share a cell) there is little to no chance he will actually end up in the slammer. While Elections Canada won?t comment on the complaint, legal experts agree that the courts will likely strike down the provision that bans foreigners from supporting a politician while still barring Canadians from spending more than &#036;3,000 to support their local candidate.

    So in a final bit of irony, after all his legal bills are tailed, Nejatian may find he?s won freedom for Michael Moore but not himself.[/b][/quote]

  2. #22
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Thor99[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 12:58 PM
    [b] Does anybody have that article that made it&#39;s way around after 9/11, written by a Canadian? It was about how the US always lends a hand around the world and never asks for anything in return. I believe it was written long before 9/11 though.

    If anyone has a link to that it would be greatly appreciated. [/b][/quote]
    Is this what you were looking for?
    _______________________________

    The Americans
    Aired: June 5, 1973
    CFRB, Toronto, Ontario Canada

    The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.

    As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtze. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.

    They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

    When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

    When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

    The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.

    I&#39;d like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

    Come on... let&#39;s hear it&#33; Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 10? If so, why don&#39;t they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?

    You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

    When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said &#39;the hell with the rest of the world&#39;. Let someone else buy the bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won&#39;t shake apart in earthquakes.

    When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.

    Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don&#39;t think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

    Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

    I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

    This year&#39;s disasters .. with the year less than half-over has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.

  3. #23
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    While I get the vibe of that "Boy Isn&#39;t the US Great" article above, I think the REAL point it illustarates is that we should SAVE OUR MONEY AND TIME AND EFFORT, and stop helping everyone else and start helping ourselves&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Lord knows NO ONE else ever will&#33;

    END FOREIGN AID&#33;&#33;&#33; END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION&#33;&#33;&#33; DEFEND OUR BORDERS and FREEDOM&#33;&#33;&#33;

  4. #24
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 01:41 PM
    [b]
    END FOREIGN AID&#33;&#33;&#33; END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION&#33;&#33;&#33; DEFEND OUR BORDERS and FREEDOM&#33;&#33;&#33; [/b][/quote]
    This is fine and dandy until the rest of the world begins to want what we got... starts to unite and then it truely will be us against the world. Thats human nature... thats why we have to stay engaged.

  5. #25
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by JetFanTransplant+Jul 30 2004, 01:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (JetFanTransplant @ Jul 30 2004, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Warfish[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 01:41 PM
    [b]
    END FOREIGN AID&#33;&#33;&#33; END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION&#33;&#33;&#33; DEFEND OUR BORDERS and FREEDOM&#33;&#33;&#33; [/b][/quote]
    This is fine and dandy until the rest of the world begins to want what we got... starts to unite and then it truely will be us against the world. Thats human nature... thats why we have to stay engaged. [/b][/quote]
    And that is different from now in what way??

  6. #26
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Titan62+Jul 30 2004, 01:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Titan62 @ Jul 30 2004, 01:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Thor99[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 12:58 PM
    [b] Does anybody have that article that made it&#39;s way around after 9/11, written by a Canadian? It was about how the US always lends a hand around the world and never asks for anything in return. I believe it was written long before 9/11 though.

    If anyone has a link to that it would be greatly appreciated. [/b][/quote]
    Is this what you were looking for?
    [/b][/quote]
    I doubt it...right after 9-11 there was a tremendous editorial written in a Toronto paper by a Canadian.

    It talked of how America has sacrificed many of their own for freedom in the world yet consistently got spat upon by and stabbed in the back its&#39; "allies"...the author of the editorial was very passionate stating, "As a Canadian I stand with America".

    It was truly a moving piece. I tried to Google it but could not find it.

  7. #27
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Come Back to NY+Jul 30 2004, 02:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Come Back to NY @ Jul 30 2004, 02:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by -Titan62@Jul 30 2004, 01:29 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin--Thor99[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 12:58 PM
    [b] Does anybody have that article that made it&#39;s way around after 9/11, written by a Canadian? It was about how the US always lends a hand around the world and never asks for anything in return. I believe it was written long before 9/11 though.

    If anyone has a link to that it would be greatly appreciated. [/b][/quote]
    Is this what you were looking for?
    [/b][/quote]
    I doubt it...right after 9-11 there was a tremendous editorial written in a Toronto paper by a Canadian.

    It talked of how America has sacrificed many of their own for freedom in the world yet consistently got spat upon by and stabbed in the back its&#39; "allies"...the author of the editorial was very passionate stating, "As a Canadian I stand with America".

    It was truly a moving piece. I tried to Google it but could not find it. [/b][/quote]
    I guess I was going by the "I believe it was written long before 9/11 though" portion of the comment.

  8. #28
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    Thanks, but that&#39;s not it. It is very similar though.

    Like Uncle Ben once said, "With great power comes great responsibility."

  9. #29
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Jul 30 2004, 10:23 AM
    [b] Health Care for all, while a noble goal, goes against the basic capitalist tenents America was founded on. Universal Health Care is a Socialist/Communist theory, and it does not work in practice (Trust me, my Mother lives in Ireland, and has multiple medical issues. Her level of care there is pathetic).

    I think our "allies" should be looked at VERY closely for their actual worth to the USA. France, for example, is worthless to us in so many ways. It is simply not in our interests to change our policies in any way to make them happy.

    Rolling Back Tax Cuts for the Top 1% NEVER just effects the 1%. It effects the middle Class (Like me) just as badly, it always does. So while the elite pay a little extra (and never notice) I end up paying alot more and I DO notice.

    A better idea is to cut spending, especially on Welfare and the War in Iraq:

    It is proven that Welfare does an amazingly poor job of helping people. It creates a Welfare state when hard working Americans support those who choose not to work, or choose to have 12 kids when they are unemployed. I&#39;m sorry, but Welfare is another Communist idea that doesn;t work in a capitalist society.

    And I am sick of all the money we are spending to "help the Iraqi&#39;s". Know what, I think the US needs to roll back ALL of it&#39;s international aid, to EVERY country that currently gets it. When we cannot afford to defend our border, we should not be sending 6 Billion a year to Israel, Iraq, or Egypt (or anywhere else). America first, everything else is secondary.

    The War on Terror has been too expensive for the results it&#39;s gotten. Defneding America IS the main priority, but we are simply not doing it right. We are spending Billions to help people who are not Americans and leaving our own people vulnerable to attack. It is simple dumb luck that we havn&#39;t been hit again since 9/11.

    I say get out of Iraq ASAP, get the U.N. to foot the bill and the forces, and get our boys (and our money) home. Use those boys and money to defend the U.S.

    Closing Corporate Loopholes (amorphous concept that it is) is another noble idea. But neither party will ever be interested in it, as they are too closely tied, funding wise, with those same corporations. Plus, I&#39;d rather give Govt. money to a company so they will stay in the USA, stay employing USA citizens, and keep our economy healthy. I think THAt is a better use of Govt money than giving it to some uneducated lazy welfare Mom and her litter of children (all with different fathers of course, none of which are present). [/b][/quote]
    Well said and very well written&#33;&#33;&#33;

    National healthcare prices can be reduced substantially. However, big pharma has Washington well greased to continue their economic onslaught on all of us.

    For example, when I was a kid the doc would see me and then go into his office and decide on a treatment. Today, doctors go into their office and prescribe what the hot looking pharmaceutical rep is touting. Doctors get to go to lunch and go on trips based on the volume that they prescribe to their patients. Unfortunately, the costs are passed onto the consumer.

    Look I am all for the next guy making an honest buck but this is a serious problem that needs to be scrutinized. However, this is not being done to reduce costs as it would eat into big pharma&#39;s profits. Not to mention that we pay the most for drugs than any other country in the world.

    Furthermore, big pharma and the god squaders who are actvely lobbying against stem cell research are preventing us from finding the cures for some of these highly costly diseases and illnesses. I am not saying that stem cell will cure everything or anything but if we found the cure for one disease think about how much money that would save us as consumers and how much money it might take away from big pharma.

    At some point we need to make a decision. Is it worth more to us to have Merck and Pfizer stocks go up or is it worth more to us if both our private and public medical insurance programs spends less money on a lifetime supply of pills that induce other illnesses that require more use of pills that only screw up something else.

    Furthermore, what exactly is the use of a pharmacy. They are part of the mechanism that rapes and pillages the public as well by maintaining the high cost structure that currently exists.

    WE do need to do some kind of reform in this manner. However, I doubt Bush or Kerry have a real legitimate solution. Even if they do Congress&#39; pockets have been lined very well with cash from the pharmaceutical industry to maintain their economic onslaught on all of us.

  10. #30
    Tom The Nader Fan™
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    The cost of drugs is based on supply and demand-

    the price is just going to keep rising until a threshold is hit, where a critical mass number of consumers refuse to pay that price.

    The price of drugs would go down considerably if the money to pay for it actually was coming out of the consumers pocket, but it&#39;s not.

    Uncle Sam foots the bill, so their really is no limit to what the pharmaceutical companies charge. Politicians aint paying for it, you and I are, so they really don&#39;t care about the price.

    [i]Theirs plenty more where that came from, by golly. [/i]

    You can&#39;t mix capitalism with socialism and think some hybrid system is going to work. So it stands to reason that getting rid of the capitalism part, and going with complete socialized medicine, is not going to lower prices, if anything they will continue to rise, as the government beauracrats and the pharmaceutical companies will be in complete and open collusion, where as now, they have to at least play pretend.

    There&#39;s no easy answer to this, unless of course you want to just kill everybody once they hit 65. :lol:

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