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Thread: Moderate Muslims Speak Out

  1. #1
    [u][b]Moderate Muslims Speak Out[/b][/u]

    Tuesday, September 07, 2004

    By Peter Brownfeld

    WASHINGTON — America is the land of opportunity and freedom, but often Muslim-American leaders inaccurately depict a prejudiced, repressive society, their moderate brethren say.

    Muslims "have more opportunity in America to practice Islam than anywhere else in the world," said Muqtedar Khan, director of International Studies at Adrian College (search) in Michigan.

    Some community leaders say Muslim-Americans need to take advantage of that freedom to send a moderate message about terrorism, Israel and other issues to their co-religionists in the United States and abroad. Spurred to speak out since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, these leaders are emphasizing moderation, in both ideas and public representatives.

    "The most important message is that we condemn all kinds of hate speech including anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism and that we come out as boldly as possible against violence committed by Muslims in Iraq, in Israel, in Muslim countries like Turkey and Indonesia, and that we do all that we can in this war against terrorism," said Ahmed al-Rahim, a founding member and former chairman of the American Islamic Congress (search).

    AIC was established after Sept. 11 because of a feeling that moderates had been silent for too long in the face of Muslim extremism.

    "The mainstream, official voice of Islam in America wasn’t forceful enough in condemning the violence and the acts of terror on 9/11. There was some hesitancy, and there was more concern with hate crimes against Muslims, which I think were relatively low, and there was more focus on that than actually looking at the violence and the hate speech that has been committed in the name of Islam," al-Rahim said.

    Khan said moderate views are more widely accepted since Sept. 11. In the past, only "conservative or narrow-minded" speakers would be allowed to speak at mosques and community centers. But after the terror attacks, moderates felt it was worth fighting to have more moderate views aired, he said.

    "You can see that the agendas are changing."

    Mateen Saddiqui, vice president Islamic Supreme Council of America (search), said some extremist groups — those he described as organizations dominated by the Wahhabi strain of the faith — have "hijacked the mic. They are the ones who are trying to put out a negative message, to politicize the religion and use it for their political focus, which is often not related to the United States, but to a political cause overseas."

    Saddiqui declined to identify those groups, but the ISCA Web site zeroes in on the Council on American-Islamic Relations (search), Benevolence International Foundation (search) and the American Muslim Council (search).

    CAIR has frequently been cited by moderates as an organization that should not speak for the American-Muslim community, and the group has long been accused of being funded by Saudi Arabia and having ties to Palestinian terror group Hamas. But CAIR's spokesman, Ibrahim Hooper, brushes off those charges, and says the accusations are to be expected.

    "As an advocacy group, that’s one of the things that you have to deal with. Inevitably, you are going to be focusing on the negative because that’s your job," Hooper said.

    CAIR, which claims 30,000-40,000 members, sends out regular updates about Muslims who have been discriminated against in the United States, and almost daily sends out an e-letter featuring positive and negative news stories about Muslims around the country.

    Hooper said CAIR seeks to educate Americans about Islam and portray the religion in a positive light. He added that CAIR has condemned every terrorist attack on Western targets.

    "We try and actively search out positive stories and positive issues, and whenever we're able, we put those forward," he said. "Unfortunately, positive stories are becoming few and far between."

    Khan disagreed, saying claims of victimization in the United States are overblown, and extremist groups try to paint concerns about civil liberties as an all-out affront on Muslim-Americans.

    "Whenever a Muslim is arrested, he is innocent," Khan said of the extreme groups' automatic cries of rights violations. They "instantly assume that the guy is innocent."

    Khan said he believes the story of Muslims in America is positive, and success among members of the Muslim American-community is proof of "America's benevolence and tolerance of Islam."

    "American Muslims really have no reason to feel they are victims of anything," he said.

    Moderates say it is up to them to make sure their message is not drowned out by extreme groups.

    "We have to get our voices heard because our voices are being drowned out by the extremists," said Asma Afsarrudin, a professor of classics at Notre Dame (search). "Extremism, militancy and violence all in the name of Islam are gross betrayals of the Islamic tradition."

    An Islamic studies expert, Afsarrudin added that scholars must explain the religion so that extremists do not have a monopoly.

    "In academia, there has been more of a readiness of intellectuals, who generally do not engage in the media, to speak up and make their voices heard," she said. "We have to point to historical and textual evidence that we can marshal that sometimes the ordinary person does not have access to."

    One non-Muslim who has worked to give a platform to moderate voices in the Muslim community is Hillel Fradkin, director of the Hudson Institute's Center on Islam, Democracy and the Future of the Muslim World (search). He said that while he worries that extremists are working to silence the moderates, he is hopeful that the foundations of American culture will nourish moderates and a more modern form of Islam. "I do think that there's a good chance that the experience of the country will lead to, over the longterm, to a moderation of the community."

    Asked whether moderates can export abroad the ideas developed in the United States, Fradkin replied, it's a "genuine prospect" but it will take an understanding of the real experience of democracy, "which is basically an abstraction in most of the Muslim world."

  2. #2
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    Not for nothing, there were a few Germans who spoke out against the nazi's before and during the war. That didn't stop the allies from killing a quarter million civilians while bombing Dresden.


    I have no doubt that their are Muslims in America who are smart enough to realize they had better tone down the hate rhetoric. If not out of genuine sincerity (of which I am sure their are a few), then out of survival. It's common sense.


    But as long as the leftist media in this country undermines those sentiments, the radical islamic maniacs will be the voice that gets heard.

    Having said that, moderate muslims (of which I'm sure their are a few) can still make an effort to get their message across:

    [b]SHOW ME, DON'T TELL ME[/b].

    They talk a good talk, everytime a terrorist bomb goes off etc, but the mealy mouthed platitudes get old real quick.

    And their is always the adendum at the end of every [i]denunciation[/i], always a [b]BUT[/b], in which they segue into a screed about "greivances against Israel" blah blah blah.

    Enough of the BS. The one thing I give Clinton credit for, is the deal he brokered with Ehud Barak in Israel to give the [i]Palestinians[/i] their own country, to form yet another dysfunctional Arab nation, and they shot the deal down because all this talk is just lip service. What they really want, and have always wanted, is the anihalation of all Jews and the complete obliteration of Israel.

    They justify shooting children in the back, flying airplanes into buildings, and forcing their own children to strap on explosives to blow up busses, and left wing idiots in this country encourage them.

    They are a bunch of scum sucking *ssholes, but thank God there is enough people in this country who understand the problem, and we have an administration that is doing something about it.

    Arabs must face reality: They are the problem; not us, and not Israel. When they become ready to demonstrate to the civilized world that they are ready to move forward to at least the 18th century (from their current position the 8th century), let me know.

    Unfortunately for them and for us, they won't. They will continue to terrorize, and we will continue to strike back, until we will be left with no other recourse but to Nuke them into oblivion.

    I say let's nuke 'em now and just get it over with.

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    Muslims are scum!!!!!! They all practice hate and violence. I'm at the point when I stop for gas & the attendant is wearing a turbin, I drive to another station. Fortunately in PA most stations are owned and operated by regular people.

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    "Moderate" Muslims [i]should [/i]be speaking out against terrorism. This is good I guess, but there is still widespread silence, IMO, among so-called "moderate" muslims both in America and abroad. Also, be wary of which Muslims the mainstream US and international media refer to as "moderate." Many of these "moderates" advocate "final victory" against the Jews and are also Holocaust deniers, etc.


    I stopped into a gas station a few weeks ago. There were US flags everywhere, and three billboards that read, "We love America!" and "Freedom isn't Free!" and "These colors don't run!" and the like. All of the attendants were Middle Eastern; one from Pakistan, two from Iran and one from Lebanon. I asked the attendent, that's how I know. They said they haven't had any problems with "anti-Muslim" backlashes, and had some choice words about Saddam Hussein, etc. But the guy did admit that putting up the patriotic signs was a strategic move on his part....it was interesting.

  5. #5
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jetman67[/i]@Sep 9 2004, 07:31 AM
    [b] Muslims are scum!!!!!! They all practice hate and violence. I'm at the point when I stop for gas & the attendant is wearing a turbin, I drive to another station. Fortunately in PA most stations are owned and operated by regular people. [/b][/quote]
    67, turbins are not necessarily specific to Muslims. For example, Indian sikhs wear them, or, at least wear head gear that look like trubins, even if the actual name of what they wear escapes me presently. It is quite easy to mistake them for muslims, in any event.


    Also, I'd be wary of flatly saying things like "muslims are scum." That's getting into a dangerous area, IMO....the fact is, they all don't practice hate and violence. However, like you, I do have a problem even with the ones that don't do those things. The ones that don't practice hate and violence seem to not care that much that other muslims are doing so and certainly aren't doing a damn thing to stop it or even discourage it. It's as if they tacitly support such things, even if they aren't active participants. There should be more outrage within the muslm community about the actions of the hateful and violent muslims. And to date, I haven't seen much evidence of it. In that sense, I think it's fair to criticize them. But to say they are all scum and hateful and violent is simply unfair (at best), IMO. This Fox News report is a step in the right direction...

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    There always seems to be a big [b]BUT[/b]. I don't know how anyone looks at 9/11 or Beslan and isn't, as a human being, horrified. And instead, we'll hear about America, and Israel, headscarves in France, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

    Christ taught us to love our neighbor and pray for our enemies, ideals that are steeped in Judaism's social justice. He also taught that we should be more concerned with our own faults as opposed to our neighbors-the prostitute he saved from stoning, the whole "don't worry about the toothpick in your neighbor's eye until you take care of the 2x4 in your own", his take on the Pharisees'hypocrisy, and so on. There doesn't seem to be anything like that in Islam. Best we can tell, Islam teaches that Muslims should kill or marginalize ([i]dhimmitude[/i]) "infidels". It not only doesn't teach tolerance and pluralism; it teaches constant conflict.

    And best I can tell, Islam from it's beginnings is the only modern religion of any reknown which made conquest and violence central. The Koran is filled with stories of Mohammed suddenly saying that Allah had told him to conquer a tribe, and next, Mohammed and his pals were pillaging and taking 9-year old wives from the womenfolk(as Mohammed himself did). It's ironic that so many intellectuals and colleg professors attack the Bible, but no one ever does anything like that with the Koran.

  7. #7
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    [quote][b]I have no doubt that their are Muslims in America who are smart enough to realize they had better tone down the hate rhetoric. If not out of genuine sincerity (of which I am sure their are a few), then out of survival. It's common sense.
    [/b][/quote]

    A few?

    This is some good intellectual debate going on here. No racism or predjudices what so ever.

  8. #8
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Sep 9 2004, 08:38 AM
    [b] [quote][b]I have no doubt that their are Muslims in America who are smart enough to realize they had better tone down the hate rhetoric. If not out of genuine sincerity (of which I am sure their are a few), then out of survival. It's common sense.
    [/b][/quote]

    A few?

    This is some good intellectual debate going on here. No racism or predjudices what so ever. [/b][/quote]
    Polls on the Arab street consistently show overwhelming support for terrorism and terrorist causes. Wheres the racism in that statements. Sure there are some muslims who dont support terror. Just like there are some Americans like yourself who feel like we sort of deserve the terrorism because of our "opressive policys".

    Rest assured that in both cases the overwhelming majorities do not share those beliefs.

  9. #9
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    Islam.

    [img]http://www.africana.ru/news/2000/12/00.12.23_golod_Sudan.jpg[/img]

    The religion of piece. [b]PIECE OF s**t[/b]. Angry

    [url=http://www.darfurgenocide.org/]http://www.darfurgenocide.org/[/url]

  10. #10
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Sep 9 2004, 08:38 AM
    [b] [quote][b]I have no doubt that their are Muslims in America who are smart enough to realize they had better tone down the hate rhetoric. If not out of genuine sincerity (of which I am sure their are a few), then out of survival. It's common sense.
    [/b][/quote]

    A few?

    This is some good intellectual debate going on here. No racism or predjudices what so ever. [/b][/quote]
    You want intellectual debate? Fine, let's see you provide some. It will be a liberal first.

    It's been 3 years since President Bush declared that "Islam is the religion of peace", after islamic maniacs flew planes into the WTC and the Pentagon, murdering thousands, destroying hundreds of thousands of jobs; if not for the brilliant strategy of Alan Greenspan and the Federal Reserve, would have caused catastrophic harm to our economy.

    Since then, Islam has:

    Sawed peoples heads off; blew up a trains in Spain; murdered [b]HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS[/b] in the Sudan; shot russian children in the back... The friggin' prime minister of Malaysia states that "Jews run the world by proxy"...

    It was funny when the neo-nazi in the movie [i]The Blues Brothers[/i] said it, but Malaysia?

    Anybody see a pattern here? Anybody see a common denominator?

    There is something pathological and depraved about the institution of islam. Period.

    The fact remains: Everywhere they are, and everywhere they go-

    [i]THERE IS TROUBLE[/i]. Heck, maybe it [i]is[/i] everybody else. Maybe it's not them.

    I'm sure islam has done some good things since then. Surely, the religion of islam, with it's huge swathe and sphere of influence, has done some wonderful things to make the world a better place to live in. Right? I just can't think of any.

    Can you? Tell me all the things that islam does to contribute to the brotherhood of man. Recall a few years ago when musim's flipped out in Nigeria; they were putting car tires around people and setting them on fire. Charming. Islam: changing hearts and minds one burning tire at a time.

    Even our "allies", Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Pakistan, have all done things to f**k us or compromise our efforts at destroying organized terrorist groups.


    [url=http://www.hvk.org/articles/1202/39.html]http://www.hvk.org/articles/1202/39.html[/url]

  11. #11
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    September 10, 2004, 10:00 a.m.
    Jihad in Chaos
    The extremist ideology is in collapse.



    On this third anniversary of the tragic events of September 11, 2001, we have much more to be thankful for than some of our political leaders would have us believe. Islamist terrorism's global scourge has been unable to launch anything more than verbal tirades at America. And while the jihadists have won successes in lesser form — the train bombings in Spain that unseated a government, hostage-taking dramas in Iraq that forced minor players from the global antiterror team, and Iran's successful effort to sow divisiveness in the West about its nuclear ambitions while harboring much of al Qaeda's senior leadership — the fact remains that they have not been able to execute a spectacular strike in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks.


    Osama bin Laden's global vision — of jihadists crawling from the cracks in every enemy state to strike out at infidels with weapons of mass destruction — is drowning in a swamp of confusion among senior jihadists debating who to attack next, how to do it, and for whose benefit. In short, global jihad has turned on itself, and is being destroyed from within — one botched and more wretched attack at a time.

    This is largely a function of the sacrifices made by our fallen heroes — the men and women of the U.S. armed forces, and their Coalition colleagues — in the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. Their courage and valor in conflict zones has battered the very thesis — that the enemy is too corrupt of mind, too decadent in spirit, and too weak of body to sustain the battle to victory — on which bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, have sent thousands of "martyrs" to their deaths.

    Zawahiri's appearance on al Jazeera this week to once again threaten the U.S. was particularly poignant, since it was the Egyptian physician who, in his infinite wisdom, wrote in 2001 prior to the September 11 attacks that if the "jihadist vanguard" improperly executed its plans to spread Islam's words by force, the movement would become isolated and separated from the Muslim masses. He was right, and is now desperately trying to rekindle the unified spirit al Qaeda had achieved prior to the 9/11 attacks.

    Zawahiri went so far, at that time in 2001, to set forth the thesis of "shock-and-awe" terrorism as a way to galvanize the Muslim masses against the infidels and win the hearts and minds of the feeble in the Muslim world. And so it was that he conceived the attacks of September 11. Galvanize he did, but the wrong masses. And now global jihad is showing real signs of coming apart.

    Just look at recent terrorist acts to see how desperate the jihadists have become to regain their footing among Islam's increasingly skeptical masses. The most informative example is what happened in Russia last week.

    The massacre of innocent children at Beslan, where terrorists turned guns on each other to coerce obedience to the plan, demonstrated the very failure of extremist Islam's ideology to inspire — and how the hideousness of their actions could sow doubt in even the most criminally hardened minds. When even the terrorists are at a loss to see how killing over 150 schoolchildren can help their cause, you know they have a problem. Most Chechens have now turned away from the very radicals who seek to free them because they see the horrific lengths to which the extremists will go, and realize that they too could be the targets of the assassins.

    Like him or not, Vladimir Putin's resolve to stare down Beslan's terrorists — about whom he understood nothing — will (if by accident) be seen one day as a turning point in the war against extremism, because the depravity of Beslan's architects has turned the silent majority in the Muslim world on its ear. Editors, political leaders, and mullahs from Jeddah to Istanbul to Jakarta are decrying the insanity of the Beslan murders. And they are beginning to realize that always blaming others for their woes won't help elevate their disaffected people or spread the word of their failed vision any faster or better.

    [b]We Muslims (I am an American whose faith remains that of the humane and dignified Islam) have no legs to stand on anymore when those who proclaim our religion are willing to put a gun to a child's head, pull the trigger, and call it an act of martyrdom. Islam no longer carries a message of hope, only the indelible impressions of cruelty. Its purveyors are bankrupt of ideas that inspire, and have failed in an ideology that in its very heart today has become hypocritical. To top it all off, America's Muslims — whose freedom to craft and convey an opposition to the terrorist cancer is protected by the very people those terrorists seek to destroy, sit silent — stone cold silent.[/b]

    Islam's "vanguard," as Zawahiri called it, has an opportunity to redefine the message and turn away from the extremists. America will win the war against extremism because America's values are righteous, and because God, whatever you conceive Him to be, is at our side. But Islam will surely lose its credibility as a great religion if its benefactors don't stand now and drive the final nail into the coffin of the terrorists who have hijacked a noble faith.

    The terrorists have turned on themselves because they have no morality and no code. Let's now finish the job and rise up against them en masse with ideas that reflect human values, not just Islamic values: to mobilize the Muslim masses against their own extremist creed for the good of humanity. To do otherwise is to show the ultimate disrespect for our fallen heroes, both here in America and now in the fields of Beslan, where the innocence of our children was lost as well.

    —[i] Mansoor Ijaz negotiated Sudan's offer to share intelligence data on Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda with the Clinton administration in April 1997, and jointly authored the cease-fire plan for Kashmir in 2000. He is chairman of Crescent Investment Management in New York. [/i]

  12. #12
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jet Moses[/i]@Sep 9 2004, 07:20 AM
    [b] What they really want, and have always wanted, is the anihalation of all Jews and the complete obliteration of Israel.
    [/b][/quote]
    sounds like the Jews' problem to me.

  13. #13
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti+Sep 11 2004, 01:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (bitonti @ Sep 11 2004, 01:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Jet Moses[/i]@Sep 9 2004, 07:20 AM
    [b] What they really want, and have always wanted, is the anihalation of all Jews and the complete obliteration of Israel.
    [/b][/quote]
    sounds like the Jews&#39; problem to me. [/b][/quote]
    Sooooo 6 million jews being murdered in the holocaust wasn&#39;t our problem? It was theirs right?



    Or maybe the murder of millions of jews if the Arabs succeeded in destroying Israel and annihilating jews from the earth. Not our problem right?

  14. #14
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever+Sep 9 2004, 07:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (jets5ever &#064; Sep 9 2004, 07:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jetman67[/i]@Sep 9 2004, 07:31 AM
    [b] Muslims are scum&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; They all practice hate and violence. I&#39;m at the point when I stop for gas & the attendant is wearing a turbin, I drive to another station. Fortunately in PA most stations are owned and operated by regular people. [/b][/quote]
    67, turbins are not necessarily specific to Muslims. For example, Indian sikhs wear them, or, at least wear head gear that look like trubins, even if the actual name of what they wear escapes me presently. It is quite easy to mistake them for muslims, in any event.


    Also, I&#39;d be wary of flatly saying things like "muslims are scum." That&#39;s getting into a dangerous area, IMO....the fact is, they all don&#39;t practice hate and violence. However, like you, I do have a problem even with the ones that don&#39;t do those things. The ones that don&#39;t practice hate and violence seem to not care that much that other muslims are doing so and certainly aren&#39;t doing a damn thing to stop it or even discourage it. It&#39;s as if they tacitly support such things, even if they aren&#39;t active participants. There should be more outrage within the muslm community about the actions of the hateful and violent muslims. And to date, I haven&#39;t seen much evidence of it. In that sense, I think it&#39;s fair to criticize them. But to say they are all scum and hateful and violent is simply unfair (at best), IMO. This Fox News report is a step in the right direction... [/b][/quote]
    5ever, I give you some credit with your post.

    However, your argument is the same just like the other white guys on this sight. How come none of the other Muslim/Arab people speak out about terrorism and apologize? That is the constant question. Furthermore, you like most of the white guys on this thread constantly assume that because we do not broadcast our thoughts in that manner then we support terrorism. Then you have the audacity to conveniently blame all Muslims/Arabs for the acts of 9/11, Beslan and any other terrorist act that you can think of.

    That could not be any farther from the truth and you know it. The simple fact is that you and all of the other white guys on this thread want all Muslim&#39;s and Arabs to apologize for 9-11 and any other terrorist act that you can think of. The sad thing is that the majority of Muslims and Arabs had nothing to do with 9-11, Chechnya or anything else that you can blame on an entire group of people. Perhaps you should blame the sub-group of rotten apple Muslims/Arabs that hide behind Allah and are economically supported and protected by the politicians, Republicans and Democrats alike, in Washington.

    But if that were so, then I suppose that you are also saying that all Irish guys like yourself should also accept the blame and apologize for the acts of the IRA. Let&#39;s see how many innocent people were victims of their bombings. I don&#39;t see you condemning the acts of the IRA for the past few 50 years. I guess all of the white guys have to apologize and publicly denounce the actions of the white executives at Enron, Global Crossing, Worldcom etc. for corporate fraud. Since you guys are not standing on the street corner denouncing it and apologizing for the actions of your kind then you are also supporting the actions of the IRA and the white white collar thieves.

    You all assume that we all blame Jews and we all hate Jews. That could not be farther from the truth. My experience with Jews in my professional life has been far from stellar. Therefore, I limit my dealings with them and rightfully so. That does not mean I don&#39;t have friends who are Jewish. You see the Jews who befriend a Goyum like myself are for the most part considered by their kind as self hating Jews. That is reality. I don&#39;t blame Jews for anything, I accept them for what they are and choose to limit my dealings with the majority of them because I don&#39;t need to deal with their bull****. Don&#39;t think I don&#39;t give them a chance to redeem themselves every once in a while. Sadly enough, it always seem to be the same thing ALMOST every time.

    Finally, the majority of us do not deny the Holocaust. Yeah it happened and a lot of people died. There were a lot of Jews that died. Yet why is it that we only hear about their holocaust with Jewish and Christian producers and writers churning out dramatized movies and stories 60 years later. What about the Nazi&#39;s mass murder of Catholic Poles during WWII? What about the ethnic cleansing that took place in Serbia? What about the famine in Africa? Better yet what about the exporting of American jobs?

    You are right, I forgot that it is more important that we remember and honor the Jews that were killed 60 years ago and that we should continue to give 90% of our foreign aid to Israel.

  15. #15
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by outsider+Sep 14 2004, 11:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (outsider &#064; Sep 14 2004, 11:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by jets5ever@Sep 9 2004, 07:42 AM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin-jetman67[/i]@Sep 9 2004, 07:31 AM
    [b] Muslims are scum&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; They all practice hate and violence. I&#39;m at the point when I stop for gas & the attendant is wearing a turbin, I drive to another station. Fortunately in PA most stations are owned and operated by regular people. [/b][/quote]
    67, turbins are not necessarily specific to Muslims. For example, Indian sikhs wear them, or, at least wear head gear that look like trubins, even if the actual name of what they wear escapes me presently. It is quite easy to mistake them for muslims, in any event.


    Also, I&#39;d be wary of flatly saying things like "muslims are scum." That&#39;s getting into a dangerous area, IMO....the fact is, they all don&#39;t practice hate and violence. However, like you, I do have a problem even with the ones that don&#39;t do those things. The ones that don&#39;t practice hate and violence seem to not care that much that other muslims are doing so and certainly aren&#39;t doing a damn thing to stop it or even discourage it. It&#39;s as if they tacitly support such things, even if they aren&#39;t active participants. There should be more outrage within the muslm community about the actions of the hateful and violent muslims. And to date, I haven&#39;t seen much evidence of it. In that sense, I think it&#39;s fair to criticize them. But to say they are all scum and hateful and violent is simply unfair (at best), IMO. This Fox News report is a step in the right direction... [/b][/quote]
    5ever, I give you some credit with your post.

    However, your argument is the same just like the other white guys on this sight. How come none of the other Muslim/Arab people speak out about terrorism and apologize? That is the constant question. Furthermore, you like most of the white guys on this thread constantly assume that because we do not broadcast our thoughts in that manner then we support terrorism. Then you have the audacity to conveniently blame all Muslims/Arabs for the acts of 9/11, Beslan and any other terrorist act that you can think of.

    [/b][/quote]
    As opposed to most of the camel jockey&#39;s who come here and blame [b]everything[/b] on America?? And insinuate [b]all[/b] the world&#39;s problems start and end with America??

    Your last paragraph displays your insanity:

    [quote][b]Finally, the majority of us do not deny the Holocaust. Yeah it happened and a lot of people died. There were a lot of Jews that died. Yet why is it that we only hear about their holocaust with Jewish and Christian producers and writers churning out dramatized movies and stories 60 years later. What about the Nazi&#39;s mass murder of Catholic Poles during WWII? What about the ethnic cleansing that took place in Serbia? What about the famine in Africa? Better yet what about the exporting of American jobs? [/b][/quote]

    Poles/Gypsies/Gays have always been mentioned in the holocaust but for whatever reason the do not choose to broadcast it as much as Jews (more than likely because they have much fewer survivors). You&#39;d have a much better argument if you mentioned why the Chinese, Koreans, Phillipinos and American POW&#39;s don&#39;t hold Japan&#39;s feet to the fire for their atrocities in WWII.

    What about the ethnic cleansing in Serbia?? Didn&#39;t clinton circumvent the UN and go it alone to do the right thing and try to stop it? (You&#39;d have a much better argument if you talked of ethnic cleansing in Rwanda).

    The statement of exporting American jobs is utterly ridiculous in the context of the thread and your post.

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