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Thread: Was Kerry a Communist or simply a Useful Idiot?

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    [url=http://www.townhall.com/columnists/lindachavez/lc20041027.shtml]http://www.townhall.com/columnists/lindach...c20041027.shtml[/url]

    The media are too busy repackaging old Iraq news in an October offensive against President George W. Bush's reelection to investigate truly startling evidence unearthed this week that the Communist Party may have been directing John Kerry's anti-war activities in the early 1970s.

    The evidence, contained in captured communist records on file at the Vietnam Center at Texas Tech University, shows a well-coordinated effort by the Communist Party to recruit American servicemen and officers to become part of the American anti-war movement.

    The objective was to organize high-profile activities to undermine support for the Vietnam War, including holding hearings on alleged war crimes, lobbying Congress to oppose the war, exploiting the families of American POWs and urging servicemen to return their service medals.

    Not only did John Kerry and his group Vietnam Veterans Against the War follow this game plan, but Kerry went to Paris to meet with the communist official designated as the point of contact for guiding these activities.

    In June 1970, Kerry met with Madame Binh, foreign minister of the Provisional Revolutionary Government (Viet Cong) of South Vietnam and a delegate to the Paris Peace Talks.

    The documents discovered this weekend -- one titled "Circular on Antiwar Movements in the U.S." was disseminated in Vietnam in the spring of 1971, and the other titled "Directive" was captured by the U.S. in April 1971 -- are available for viewing at [url=http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/]http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/[/url].

    They reveal a detailed plan to use antiwar activists in the U.S. as propagandists for the communist cause in Vietnam.

    So why isn't the mainstream media all over this story?

    If John Kerry -- wittingly or not -- was carrying out directives from Hanoi, or perhaps even Moscow, the American people have the right to know before they decide whether to elect him president on Tuesday.

    But the networks and major dailies were too busy covering a hysterical report that 380 tons of explosives went missing from an Iraqi depot in the early days of the U.S. invasion to inquire into John Kerry's dubious activities in the anti-war movement.

    On Monday, the New York Times "broke" the story of the purported looting of weapons from an Iraqi arms depot. "Huge Cache of Explosives Vanished from Site in Iraq" screamed the front-page Times headline, which was picked up by all the major networks and newspapers, not to mention the Kerry campaign. CBS's "60 Minutes" was also set to air a story on Sunday -- two days before the election -- aimed at convincing viewers that the administration had carelessly let the al Qaqaa depot be looted of its powerful explosives, the kind that might even be used to detonate a nuclear device. "Our plan was to run the story on Oct. 31, but it became clear that it wouldn't hold," CBS executive producer Jeff Fager said in a statement.

    In fact, the "missing explosives" story was more media campaign ploy than real news. There is substantial evidence that most of the explosives were either destroyed by U.S. bombing prior to the invasion or were already gone by the time U.S. troops arrived at al Qaqaa on April 10, 2003, according to NBC, which had a reporter embedded with the Army's 101st Airborne Division at the time.

    Furthermore, the U.S. has already destroyed or is in the process of destroying more than 400,000 tons of similar material in Iraq, a fact conveniently ignored by much of the media.

    The media rule seems to be if a story might hurt George W. Bush, play it up big; if it might help Bush, bury it; and if might hurt John Kerry, ignore it altogether.

    In an election as close as this one, the media's role could be decisive. We used to expect the candidates to unleash their own October surprise in an effort to sway the voters at the last minute. Now it's the media that plays that game. Come Halloween, it's media tricks for Bush and treats for Kerry.

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    This is a stunning revelation ... absolutely stunning

    These communist files that were discovered finger John Kerry as either a communist traitor when he came home from Nam or a useful idiot ... and the former seems far more likely

    But this should be FRONT PAGE NEWS cause this man is running for President of the United States ... and he was either a traitor or a useful idiot ... AT BEST he was a useful idiot for the communist effort to undermine the war ... AT BEST ... and at worst he was a flatout traitor

    WHERE THE HELL ARE THE HEADLINES ON THIS?!?!

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    You're 100% correct. But some animals are more equal than others.

    It's not an issue because the mainstream media sees nothing wrong with this. Many of them were from Red backgrounds. Evan Thomas, Newsweek's editor, is the son of Norman Thomas, the perennial Socialist presidential candidate and pacifist. To call Kerry on this means calling it on themselves, and that isn't happening. Which is how you get glowing stories about murderous cop-killing scumbags like Cathy Boudin in the Times every few months. For much of the media, having a leftist outlook is as natural as breathing.

    If you want to see some laughably creative writing, read the obituaries of admiited old-time Communists in the Times; they're always"committed to progressive causes", but no mention of the fact that they were openly Red. They make it sound like they just went to some cool parties rather than advocated the overthrow of the US government and willingly did the work of our enemies. Like Robeson saying how Stalin's Russia was Shangrila, and Russian spy Walter Duranty of the Times not reporting Stalin's terror and getting a Pulitzer for his work. You would think the Rosenbergs were just "committed to progressive causes" rather than consorting with and aiding our enemies.

    The 2 cops Boudin tricked into getting machine-gunned to death by her cohorts in Nanuet were Edward O'Grady and Waverly Brown. Remember that the next time the Times has a puff piece on that POS.

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    Useful idiot.

    The man has never had an original idea in his life.

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    Wow, if this is true, you would think FOXNEWS would run with it, wouldn't you? You certainly cannot label them as "Liberal Media". The same can be said for the Wall Street Journal, a bastion of the Conservative Press. Why havn't these Conservative News Outlets bombarded the people with this story?

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Oct 28 2004, 09:29 AM
    [b] Wow, if this is true, you would think FOXNEWS would run with it, wouldn't you? You certainly cannot label them as "Liberal Media". The same can be said for the Wall Street Journal, a bastion of the Conservative Press. Why havn't these Conservative News Outlets bombarded the people with this story? [/b][/quote]
    Kerry's meetings with the enemy in France are widely known. He does not deny it. He does maintain that he just happened to be in France at the time (on his honeymoon) and so he met with the Vietnamese communists. I think the revelation of the story is that the documents show a coordinated effort Vietnamese commies and anti-war activists. Most conservatives allready believed that to be the case.

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    A third document linking kerri to the commies was released today:

    [b]Another document ties Kerry to Hanoi[/b]

    A third, newly discovered Vietnamese war document presents further indication Hanoi orchestrated John Kerry's promotion of the communist regime's 1971 plan calling for virtual U.S. surrender.

    As WorldNetDaily reported Tuesday, two documents found in a U.S. archive over the weekend provide the first concrete evidence that Vietnamese communists were directing Kerry's antiwar group Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

    One of the two documents, a "circular" captured by the U.S. in 1971 and later translated, indicates the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese delegations to the Paris peace talks that year were used as the communications link to direct the activities of Kerry and other antiwar activists who attended.

    Now, a third document [pdf file] provides more context, showing that Kerry's July 22, 1971, press conference calling on President Nixon to accept the seven-point plan presented by Viet Cong leader Madame Nguyen Thi Binh was perfectly aligned with Hanoi's step-by-step agenda.

    "If you look at the sequence of events, it would certainly seem Kerry was following a plan and was not just simply acting spontaneously," said Jerome Corsi, a specialist on the Vietnam-era antiwar movement and co-author of "Unfit for Command," the best-seller challenging Kerry's qualification to lead the nation.

    Kerry insists he attended the talks only because he happened to be in France on his honeymoon and maintains he met with both sides. But previously revealed records indicate the future senator made two, and possibly three, trips to Paris.

    At the subsequent press conference in Washington, Kerry surrounded himself with the families of POWs, a strategy espoused in the recovered communist circular.

    The Kerry campaign has not responded to WND's request for a response to the discovery of the two documents.

    The third document shows that when Madame Binh came to Paris in 1969 with the North Vietnamese delegation, Hanoi was directing its propaganda efforts toward winning the hearts and minds of South Vietnamese.

    But the communist regime began to realize in 1970 and early 1971 that it could not defeat the U.S. militarily, and so the target of propaganda shifted to the antiwar movement in an attempt to erode resolve on the American homefront.

    Then Hanoi launched a series of coordinated efforts, leading to Kerry's press conference.

    "The series of dates and actions hardly look coincidental," said Corsi.

    In the last week of June 1971, Le Duc Tho the second most powerful communist leader, next to Ho Chi Minh arrived in Paris as a special counsel to the Vietnamese delegations.

    On July 1, closely on the heels of Le's arrival, Madame Binh delivered the seven-point plan to U.S. Ambassador David Bruce in Paris.

    A New York Times report at that time specifically noted the plan came after Tho's arrival.

    The plan was presented not through the head of the delegation, Xuan Thuy, but through the Viet Cong leader, Madame Binh, who first met with Kerry in the summer of 1970.

    Twenty-one days later, Kerry was in Washington advancing Madame Binh's proposal, which would force President Nixon to set a date to end the war and withdraw troops. Hanoi cleverly constructed the plan so that the only barrier to release of American POWs was Nixon's unwillingness to set a withdrawal date, but it amounted to a virtual surrender that included payment of reparations and an admission the U.S. was the aggressor in an immoral war.

    "When President Nixon got this peace plan, the White House didn't know what to do," Corsi said. "It was an entirely new initiative."

    The White House sent Secretary of State Henry Kissinger to Paris July 12, and seven days later, the South Vietnamese submitted a counterproposal to enact a total cease-fire and put the issue of reunification to a nationwide vote.

    "In the middle of these intense negotiations and posturing to Madame Binh's proposal, Kerry volunteered to hold a press conference advocating the Viet Cong leader's position," Corsi explained.

    "He had no role to insert himself in this process," he asserted. "Nixon and Kissinger were trying to deal with a difficult negotiating situation."

    In an article on the press conference, the New York Times noted POW families were upset because it appeared Kerry, who had dropped out of a bid for a seat in Congress, was motivated by his own political aspirations, using the event as a springboard to political office.

    When Kerry began to introduce relatives of prisoners who stood beside him behind the microphones, he was met with the fierce objections of four wives of POWs in the audience.

    The women shouted to Kerry, "That's a lie," and "What office are you going to run for next?"

    The Times said one of the POW wives accused Kerry of "constantly using our own suffering and grief " for his political ambitions.

    When asked if he planned to run again for political office, the Times reported Kerry replied only that "he was committed to political change and he would use whatever forum seemed best at the time."

    The captured Vietnamese circular stated that previously, the dissent among U.S. military personnel largely existed only in the Army, but had expanded to the Air Force.

    Kerry's use of Air Force POW families helped spread the dissent in a concerted way, Corsi maintained, getting the relatives to accept Binh's proposal and say, "Let's put an end to this."

    The circular said the peace plan "not only solved problems concerning the release of U.S. prisoners but also motivated the people of all walks of life and even relatives of U.S. pilots detained in [North Vietnam] to participate in the antiwar movement."

    "Kerry, by holding the press conference, supports the argument that the antiwar movement is behind this plan," Corsi said.

    The media event, consistent with plans developed and delivered in Hanoi, was "designed to have maximum impact emotionally on the antiwar community in the U.S.," he emphasized.

    Corsi said the Kerry campaign's silence on the new discovery of the documents mirrors its unwillingness to respond to the charges of "Unfit for Command" until it was obvious the presidential candidate was suffering political damage.

    "The charges in the new documents have been out there for a full day," he pointed out. "Had the documents not been authentic, the Kerry camp would have been all over them, to discredit them."

    Previous story:

    Discovered documents: Hanoi directed Kerry

    Art Moore is a news editor with WorldNetDaily.com.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by chiefst2000+Oct 28 2004, 09:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (chiefst2000 @ Oct 28 2004, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Warfish[/i]@Oct 28 2004, 09:29 AM
    [b] Wow, if this is true, you would think FOXNEWS would run with it, wouldn&#39;t you? You certainly cannot label them as "Liberal Media". The same can be said for the Wall Street Journal, a bastion of the Conservative Press. Why havn&#39;t these Conservative News Outlets bombarded the people with this story? [/b][/quote]
    Kerry&#39;s meetings with the enemy in France are widely known. He does not deny it. He does maintain that he just happened to be in France at the time (on his honeymoon) and so he met with the Vietnamese communists. I think the revelation of the story is that the documents show a coordinated effort Vietnamese commies and anti-war activists. Most conservatives allready believed that to be the case. [/b][/quote]
    Thank you for re-stating the obvious but I think you have missed my point.

    IF the direct Anti-American connection/co-ordination bewteen Kerry and the Vietnam Era Communists is true (as GJ&H and CBTNY claim here), WHY are the conservative Major Media (for example FOXNEWS and The Wall Street Journal) not reporting these new documents and these ties on Page 1 of their repective new sources TODAY?

    One would think the uncovering of such a [u]documented[/u] relevation would be the single most important news item of the day with the election only days away, and even if the liberal media were ignoring it, there is no such bias or limitation at FOXNEWS or the W.S.J.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish+Oct 28 2004, 10:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Warfish &#064; Oct 28 2004, 10:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by chiefst2000@Oct 28 2004, 09:39 AM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin-Warfish[/i]@Oct 28 2004, 09:29 AM
    [b] Wow, if this is true, you would think FOXNEWS would run with it, wouldn&#39;t you? You certainly cannot label them as "Liberal Media". The same can be said for the Wall Street Journal, a bastion of the Conservative Press. Why havn&#39;t these Conservative News Outlets bombarded the people with this story? [/b][/quote]
    Kerry&#39;s meetings with the enemy in France are widely known. He does not deny it. He does maintain that he just happened to be in France at the time (on his honeymoon) and so he met with the Vietnamese communists. I think the revelation of the story is that the documents show a coordinated effort Vietnamese commies and anti-war activists. Most conservatives allready believed that to be the case. [/b][/quote]
    Thank you for re-stating the obvious but I think you have missed my point.

    IF the direct Anti-American connection/co-ordination bewteen Kerry and the Vietnam Era Communists is true (as GJ&H and CBTNY claim here), WHY are the conservative Major Media (for example FOXNEWS and The Wall Street Journal) not reporting these new documents and these ties on Page 1 of their repective new sources TODAY?

    One would think the uncovering of such a [u]documented[/u] relevation would be the single most important news item of the day with the election only days away, and even if the liberal media were ignoring it, there is no such bias or limitation at FOXNEWS or the W.S.J. [/b][/quote]
    Seeing that these are recently "discovered" documents, maybe they&#39;re simply performing the Journalism 101 due diligience that Dan Rather and CBS were too arrogant and biased to do during the forged National Guard documents fiasco.

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    [quote][b]Seeing that these are recently "discovered" documents, maybe they&#39;re simply performing the Journalism 101 due diligience that Dan Rather and CBS were too arrogant and biased to do during the forged National Guard documents fiasco.[/b][/quote]

    I guess we&#39;ll know soon enough right? It would be a shame if these were legit documents, legit proof, and yet they didn&#39;t get shown till AFTER the election. If this is true, and is the clear cut proof GJ&H and CBTNY state, then the people should know about it ASAP. Right?

    By the way, if due dilligence still needs to be done, wouldn&#39;t that mean that GJ&H&#39;s and CBTNY&#39;s sources ([url]www.townhall.com[/url] and worldnetdaily.com respectively) have not done such due dilligence? I think GJ&H and CBTNY might disagree with you on that claim.

    By the way Shake, you seem to have some misguided and uninformed idea that I am a supporter of Rather and CBS. Where would you get that idea? Certainly not from any of my posts here. :rolleyes:

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    John Kerry didn&#39;t undermine the Vietnam War... Nixon and LBJ did by fighting it.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Oct 28 2004, 12:57 PM
    [b] By the way Shake, you seem to have some misguided and uninformed idea that I am a supporter of Rather and CBS. Where would you get that idea? Certainly not from any of my posts here. :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
    I have no idea where you stand re Rather and CBS. My guess though, since you brought it up, is that you probably say there&#39;s some defense for their indefensible (and illegal, frankly) conduct during their forged documents fiasco...

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    CBS is the same station that wouldn&#39;t air anti-war advertisments during the Super Bowl...

    Dan Rather appeared on Letterman the night or two after 9-11 crying and rallying support for White House and War

    Viacom still won&#39;t allow Kerry to air ads...

    It doesn&#39;t take inside information to read between the lines what happened during Rathergate.

    CBS made a horrible botch of journalism ON PURPOSE to make the democrats look like (bigger) *******s.

    the "source" was so obviously horrible there&#39;s no way they didn&#39;t do it on purpose.

    Do i have proof? hey Not really but that doesn&#39;t make it false. What the American people don&#39;t know could fill a 30 volume encyclopedia.

    - it makes sense to that Karl Rove would have hatched Rathergate as a campaign move.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by shakin318+Oct 28 2004, 01:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (shakin318 &#064; Oct 28 2004, 01:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Warfish[/i]@Oct 28 2004, 12:57 PM
    [b] By the way Shake, you seem to have some misguided and uninformed idea that I am a supporter of Rather and CBS. Where would you get that idea? Certainly not from any of my posts here. :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
    I have no idea where you stand re Rather and CBS. My guess though, since you brought it up, is that you probably say there&#39;s some defense for their indefensible (and illegal, frankly) conduct during their forged documents fiasco... [/b][/quote]
    If it was illegal (instead of just immoral and biased), why has there been no prosecution?

    And no, if proper due dilligence was not done, and the story was run for political purpose by a media news org supposely based on objectivity and unbaised commentary, then there IS no defense.

    Of course, Conservatives have no worries about that, since the "New Media" of Radio and Bloggers operate under no such "objective unbiased pretense". :rolleyes:

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 28 2004, 01:07 PM
    [b] CBS is the same station that wouldn&#39;t air anti-war advertisments during the Super Bowl...

    Dan Rather appeared on Letterman the night or two after 9-11 crying and rallying support for White House and War

    Viacom still won&#39;t allow Kerry to air ads...

    It doesn&#39;t take inside information to read between the lines what happened during Rathergate.

    CBS made a horrible botch of journalism ON PURPOSE to make the democrats look like (bigger) *******s.

    the "source" was so obviously horrible there&#39;s no way they didn&#39;t do it on purpose.

    Do i have proof? hey Not really but that doesn&#39;t make it false. What the American people don&#39;t know could fill a 30 volume encyclopedia.

    - it makes sense to that Karl Rove would have hatched Rathergate as a campaign move. [/b][/quote]
    So Dan Rather fell on the sword for the Republicans?

    Aye carumba bit...they&#39;re coming to take me away, oh my, they&#39;re coming to take me away....

  16. #16
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    [quote][b]CBS is the same station that wouldn&#39;t air anti-war advertisments during the Super Bowl...

    Dan Rather appeared on Letterman the night or two after 9-11 crying and rallying support for White House and War

    Viacom still won&#39;t allow Kerry to air ads...

    It doesn&#39;t take inside information to read between the lines what happened during Rathergate.

    CBS made a horrible botch of journalism ON PURPOSE to make the democrats look like (bigger) *******s.

    the "source" was so obviously horrible there&#39;s no way they didn&#39;t do it on purpose.

    Do i have proof? hey Not really but that doesn&#39;t make it false. What the American people don&#39;t know could fill a 30 volume encyclopedia.

    - it makes sense to that Karl Rove would have hatched Rathergate as a campaign move.
    [/b][/quote]

    Rediculous. Conspiracy theories, while fun Bit, are so rarely the truth. Come up with some smallest sliver of proof before you make this kind of ludicrious claim.

    And anyway, even if the Cons were behind it, Dan Rather and his Network STILL had the opportunity to do the due dilligence, the research, before airing it and hanging themselves. No excuses Bit, none whatsoever.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish+Oct 28 2004, 01:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Warfish @ Oct 28 2004, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by shakin318@Oct 28 2004, 01:02 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin-Warfish[/i]@Oct 28 2004, 12:57 PM
    [b] By the way Shake, you seem to have some misguided and uninformed idea that I am a supporter of Rather and CBS. Where would you get that idea? Certainly not from any of my posts here. :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
    I have no idea where you stand re Rather and CBS. My guess though, since you brought it up, is that you probably say there&#39;s some defense for their indefensible (and illegal, frankly) conduct during their forged documents fiasco... [/b][/quote]
    If it was illegal (instead of just immoral and biased), why has there been no prosecution?

    And no, if proper due dilligence was not done, and the story was run for political purpose by a media news org supposely based on objectivity and unbaised commentary, then there IS no defense.

    Of course, Conservatives have no worries about that, since the "New Media" of Radio and Bloggers operate under no such "objective unbiased pretense". :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
    Using forged documents in an attempt to impact a Presidential election? What would you call it?

    As for conservative radio and internet bastions, what part about the fact that they are clearly identified as CONSERVATIVE don&#39;t you grasp? They have no problem with openly stating what they are and where they&#39;re shooting from, unlike most liberals, who (like John Kerry) have to lie about who they really are and what they really believe to have any chance of gaining the acceptance of Americans.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Oct 28 2004, 01:14 PM
    [b] [quote][b]CBS is the same station that wouldn&#39;t air anti-war advertisments during the Super Bowl...

    Dan Rather appeared on Letterman the night or two after 9-11 crying and rallying support for White House and War

    Viacom still won&#39;t allow Kerry to air ads...

    It doesn&#39;t take inside information to read between the lines what happened during Rathergate.

    CBS made a horrible botch of journalism ON PURPOSE to make the democrats look like (bigger) *******s.

    the "source" was so obviously horrible there&#39;s no way they didn&#39;t do it on purpose.

    Do i have proof? hey Not really but that doesn&#39;t make it false. What the American people don&#39;t know could fill a 30 volume encyclopedia.

    - it makes sense to that Karl Rove would have hatched Rathergate as a campaign move.
    [/b][/quote]

    Rediculous. Conspiracy theories, while fun Bit, are so rarely the truth. Come up with some smallest sliver of proof before you make this kind of ludicrious claim.

    And anyway, even if the Cons were behind it, Dan Rather and his Network STILL had the opportunity to do the due dilligence, the research, before airing it and hanging themselves. No excuses Bit, none whatsoever. [/b][/quote]
    Holy crap. Boston wins the series and now this? Hell freezing over can&#39;t be far behind...

  19. #19
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    [quote][b]Using forged documents in an attempt to impact a Presidential election? What would you call it?[/b][/quote]

    OK, I&#39;ll repeat myself, just for you Shakes:

    If it was illegal (instead of just immoral and biased), why has there been no prosecution?

    [quote][b]As for conservative radio and internet bastions, what part about the fact that they are clearly identified as CONSERVATIVE don&#39;t you grasp? They have no problem with openly stating what they are and where they&#39;re shooting from, unlike most liberals, who (like John Kerry) have to lie about who they really are and what they really believe to have any chance of gaining the acceptance of Americans.[/b][/quote]

    You&#39;re right. The Mainstream media has to try to operate under the theory of impartiallity. Conservtives don&#39;t feel impartiallity or objectivity is important. As long as it supports their party and agenda, it&#39;s ok by them. If that&#39;&#39;s how you like your news, great. I prefer at least an ATTEMPT to be neutral, to an obvious and extremist bias in my news coverage (and I Love FoxNews and FoxNews.com btw).

  20. #20
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    [quote][b]Holy crap. Boston wins the series and now this? Hell freezing over can&#39;t be far behind... [/b][/quote]

    It happens, more often than you think, Shakes. :lol: However, most Cons forget that when I criticise THEM or THEIR party. After all, anyone who dares speak against the Cons MUST be a Flaming Communist Liberal, right?

    Right? :rolleyes: :lol:

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