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Thread: If you plan to Vote ...Read this before you do!

  1. #1
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    This will be my last post before the election... The following is a article I read and it says everything I wanted to. ......God Bless America

    VOTE

    The Daily Record Newspaper
    by Mathew Manweller, Professor, Central Washington University.

    >In that this will be my last column before the presidential election,
    >there will be no sarcasm, no attempts at witty repartee. The topic is
    >too serious, and the stakes are too high.
    >
    >This November we will vote in the only election during our lifetime that
    >will truly matter. Because America is at a once-in-a-generation
    >crossroads, more than an election hangs in the balance. Down one path
    >lies retreat, abdication and a reign of ambivalence.
    >
    >Down the other lies a nation that is aware of it's past and accepts the
    >daunting obligation its future demands. If we choose poorly, the
    >consequences will echo through the next 50 years of history. If we, in a
    >spasm of frustration, turn out the current occupant of the White House,
    >the message to the world and ourselves will be two-fold. First, we will
    >reject the notion that America can do big things. Once a nation that
    >tamed a frontier, stood down the Nazis and stood upon the moon, we will
    >announce to the world that bringing democracy to the Middle East is too
    >big of a task for us. But more significantly, we will signal to future
    >presidents that as voters, we are unwilling to tackle difficult
    >challenges, preferring caution to boldness, embracing the mediocrity
    >that has characterized other civilizations.
    >
    >The defeat of President Bush will send a chilling message to future
    >presidents who may need to make difficult, yet unpopular decisions.
    >America has always been a nation that rises to the demands of history
    >regardless of the costs or appeal. If we turn away from that legacy, we
    >turn away from whom we are.
    >
    >Second, we inform every terrorist organization on the globe that the
    >lesson of Somalia was well-learned. In Somalia we showed terrorists that
    >you don't need to defeat America on the battlefield when you can defeat
    >them in the newsroom. They learned that a wounded America can become a
    >defeated America. Twenty-four-hour news stations and daily tracing polls
    >will do the heavy lifting, turning a cut into a fatal blow. Except that
    >Iraq is Somalia times 10. The election of John Kerry will serve notice
    >to every terrorist in every cave that the soft underbelly of American
    >power is the timidity of American voters. Terrorists will know that a
    >steady stream of grisly photos for CNN is all you need to break the will
    >of the American people. Our own self-doubt will take it from there. Bin
    >Laden will recognize that he can topple any American administration
    >without setting foot on the homeland.
    >
    >It is said that America's W.W.II generation is its 'greatest
    >generation'. But my greatest fear is that it will become known as
    >America's 'last generation.' Born in the bleakness of the Great
    >depression and hardened in the fire of W.W. II, they may be the last
    >American generation that understands the meaning of duty, honor and
    >sacrifice. It is difficult to admit, but I know these terms are spoken
    >with only hollow detachment by many (but not all) in my generation. Too
    >many citizens today mistake 'living in America' as 'being an American.'
    >But America has always been more of an idea than a place. When you sign
    >on, you do more than buy real estate. You accept a set of values and
    >responsibilities.
    >
    >This November, my generation, which has been absent too long, must grasp
    >the obligation that comes with being an American, or fade into the
    >oblivion they may deserve. I believe that 100 years from now historians
    >will look back at the election of 2004 and see it as the decisive
    >election of our century. Depending on the outcome, they will describe it
    >as the moment America joined the ranks of ordinary nations; or they will
    >describe it as the moment the prodigal sons and daughters of the
    >greatest generation accepted their burden as caretakers of the City on
    >the Hill."

    >
    >Mathew Manweller is a Central Washington University political science
    >professor.

  2. #2
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by GreenBlood[/i]@Oct 29 2004, 08:15 AM
    [b]
    >
    >Mathew Manweller is a Central Washington University political science
    >professor. [/b][/quote]
    I read this the other day. It is definately on point.

  3. #3
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    Very good article. Hits the nail right on the head.

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    Very good article. Hits the nail right on the head.

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    I agree 100%

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    WWII has absolutely NOTHING to do with this current conflict. TO even mention Iraq in the same breath as WWII is an insult to anyone who ever served in WWII.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 29 2004, 11:05 AM
    [b] WWII has absolutely NOTHING to do with this current conflict. TO even mention Iraq in the same breath as WWII is an insult to anyone who ever served in WWII. [/b][/quote]
    So your saying that our troops that are serving in Iraq are somehow "lesser" than those that served during WWII?

    As I see it, those that has served, does serve or will serve are equally honorable.

    If you think the WWII vets are " insulted " by our soldiers currently in the Iraq theatre, I suggest you go talk to some.

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    "WWII has absolutely NOTHING to do with this current conflict. TO even mention Iraq in the same breath as WWII is an insult to anyone who ever served in WWII. "

    Get your head out of the sand, it's ww3. It's not as big as world war 2, but just as important. 9/11 was far worse then the attack on pearl harbor... it's one thing to attack military... its another to attack civilians. That school over in Russia was the lowest you could go. The war on terrorism in general is a tough struggle which may take quite a few years, much like ww2. I agree with transplant, anyone who has served, is serving, or will serve in the future is just as honorable. Do I think the ww2 generation was the greatest that ever lived? Yes. They saved the world, and nothing can take that away. but that shouldnt lessen what our guys are doing over there in the middle east, and throughout the rest of the world.

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    I've not posted in this forum in about 6months, but I have to comment on the WWII comparisons.

    America aside, the attitude of Middle Eastern populist Islam toward Western Civilization nearly exactly matches that of WWII Japan.

    They believed that Hirohito was, if not a God, certainly a prophet worth killin,raping and dying for in large numbers. In lieu of the prison scandal in Iraq, I won't indict the Japanese's affinity toward rape and torture as a means of obtaining god's objective...even though that comparison is accurate, and to debate it proves you don't know any WWII POW's or Koreans over age 60.

    The Japanese culture needed to learn to accept Western Civilization and live politely with it's neighbors, and we needed to provide that education regardless of the cost.

    Now we have a Middle East full of Muslims who think they have the moral imperative to blow up anything they don't agree with...including buildings in other countries. Now they're in the process of learning their opinion is an expensive one.

    For centuries, Middle Eastern Muslims haven't tolerated anyone in the world who wasn't a Middle Eastern Muslim. Fine. But if you can't police your hatred, the world will do it for you.

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    WWII was DECLARED by congress. This has no such official recognition. The soldiers are not lesser but the leaders are... WWII was a real war that the entire country knew had to be fought. This is not about a generation gap, this is about real and fake threats to the nation. Unfortunately for the brave soldiers that are in Iraq today they are not there fighting for "american freedom" - Iraqi freedom maybe - corporate freedom definately - but the leaders are doing such a s--t job with the whole affair...

    I have never hated the soldier only hated the war. I support the soldiers. I do not support the commander in chief. we should Make that clear before you make these assumptions

    by the way we won WWII are we gonna win Iraq?

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by JerryK[/i]@Oct 29 2004, 12:08 PM
    [b] America aside, the attitude of Middle Eastern populist Islam toward Western Civilization nearly exactly matches that of WWII Japan.
    [/b][/quote]
    it took two f--king H bombs to stop Japan. I've said before on this forum i'd rather nuke the ME than try to democratize it, Jetman will attest to this statement. They are stuck in the stone age it will take forever to improve any of these ME hellholes.

    My position is that the terrorists cannot be defeated using conventional methods - we are in a guerilla conflict and the only way to defeat that is with overwhelming force and intense funding/bribing... even then (as with Japan) it takes GENERATIONS.

    We won't nuke the ME cause there's natural resources there that are essential to our nation's economic health - the number one supplier of US imported Oil is Saudi Arabia with 16% of our usage. These are the same f--kers that suicide bombed the world trade center so you tell me about this war and how it's the right move. It's been the wrong move from the beginning, and right now it's a disaster on the ground.

    Never have i hated the soldier but the conflict's ideology is flawed and neither the US nor the Iraqis really want it to continue - it's all about people like Wolfowitz and Cheney with their head up their asses controlling the world.

  12. #12
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    [quote][b]Get your head out of the sand, it's ww3. It's not as big as world war 2, but just as important. 9/11 was far worse then the attack on pearl harbor... it's one thing to attack military... its another to attack civilians. That school over in Russia was the lowest you could go. The war on terrorism in general is a tough struggle which may take quite a few years, much like ww2. I agree with transplant, anyone who has served, is serving, or will serve in the future is just as honorable. Do I think the ww2 generation was the greatest that ever lived? Yes. They saved the world, and nothing can take that away. but that shouldnt lessen what our guys are doing over there in the middle east, and throughout the rest of the world[/b][/quote]

    I hate to correct you (Wait, no I don't) but the History Books will very clearly look back at World War III as having been the U.S.A. vs. U.S.S.R. Cold War, a war mostly unfought, but with a few minor battles (like Korea, Vietnam, Cuba Missle Crisis, Afganistan, and more). Clearly, that undeclared War, the "Cold" War, was fought between these two giant powers for decades, and men died on both sides in droves. And this Cold War truly was a "Wolrd War" with almost every inch of land in teh world being effected to one degree or another.

    No, if the "War on [u]Insert Philosophy Here[/u]" is a "world War", it will have to settle for World War IV.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 29 2004, 12:09 PM
    [b] WWII was DECLARED by congress. This has no such official recognition. The soldiers are not lesser but the leaders are... WWII was a real war that the entire country knew had to be fought. This is not about a generation gap, this is about real and fake threats to the nation. Unfortunately for the brave soldiers that are in Iraq today they are not there fighting for "american freedom" - Iraqi freedom maybe - corporate freedom definately - but the leaders are doing such a s--t job with the whole affair...

    I have never hated the soldier only hated the war. I support the soldiers. I do not support the commander in chief. we should Make that clear before you make these assumptions

    by the way we won WWII are we gonna win Iraq? [/b][/quote]
    the way the left tries to disguise their contempt for the military is pathetic as we see from bitonti posts and kerri’s actions...the ridiculous question "by the way we won WWII are we gonna win Iraq?" shows almost a hope that America loses...then again this is the same poster who started the poll asking if "America won the Vietnam war" so you know where he is coming from...and here's another one for Gilligan; America was involved in WWII for 5 years; we've been involved in Iraq for a little more than 18-months.

    As far as the comparison between WWI and the present war on terrorism:

    -like the Germans and Japs the terrorists despite is to kill any/all individuals who do not believe in their ideology.

    -like Germany, Iraq WAS ruled by a tyrannical dictator who did not think a second about liquidating or torturing enemies.

    -like the Japs the terrorists take part in beheadings, suicide bombings and other sorts of fun things (though no cannibalism as the Japs did)

    -like WWII America was attacked and brought into the war and while leftists like bit will scream fruitlessly “Iraq did not attack us” the fact is Hussien was a terrorists waiting for his opportunity

    -Tactically, as America had to do in WWII, one objective in Iraq is to get a foothold in the region to make the fight easier (in WWII America worked their way up towards Japan taking places like Saipan and Iowa Jima to make the final strike on the Japanese Island easier).

  14. #14
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti+Oct 29 2004, 12:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (bitonti @ Oct 29 2004, 12:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JerryK[/i]@Oct 29 2004, 12:08 PM
    [b] America aside, the attitude of Middle Eastern populist Islam toward Western Civilization nearly exactly matches that of WWII Japan.
    [/b][/quote]
    it took two f--king H bombs to stop Japan. [/b][/quote]
    wrong again...get a history book the next time you are in the library rather then "Curious George goes to Bitonti&#39;s house."

    The daily nepalming of Japan is what stopped the Japs dead in their tracks....the atom bombs were the icing on the cake.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 29 2004, 12:14 PM
    [b] These are the same f--kers that suicide bombed the world trade center so you tell me about this war and how it&#39;s the right move. It&#39;s been the wrong move from the beginning, and right now it&#39;s a disaster on the ground.
    [/b][/quote]
    You&#39;re right.

    And because no political entity has declared war on US, we can&#39;t win...by definition....because there&#39;s nobody to surrender.

    And yet, pacifism tends to be hard on office buildings.

    My reason for being in Iraq is not the same as that advertised by Washington. I&#39;m happy we&#39;re there creating a magnet for these knuckleheads to come and be removed. We&#39;ve lost 1,000 soldiers thus far, but we&#39;re getting them at a 20 to 1 ratio or better.

    I don&#39;t know when it will be time to leave Iraq, but I do know that it isn&#39;t time yet. We&#39;ve lost only a tiny fraction of the people lost in other wars, and we have no discernible stance from ME governments that their culture is any more favorable to Western Civilization - and yes, Israel - So we wait...and continue the painful thankless task of burning this boil off the worlds&#39; collective butt.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by JerryK[/i]@Oct 29 2004, 12:08 PM
    [b] I&#39;ve not posted in this forum in about 6months, but I have to comment on the WWII comparisons.

    America aside, the attitude of Middle Eastern populist Islam toward Western Civilization nearly exactly matches that of WWII Japan.

    They believed that Hirohito was, if not a God, certainly a prophet worth killin,raping and dying for in large numbers. In lieu of the prison scandal in Iraq, I won&#39;t indict the Japanese&#39;s affinity toward rape and torture as a means of obtaining god&#39;s objective...even though that comparison is accurate, and to debate it proves you don&#39;t know any WWII POW&#39;s or Koreans over age 60.

    The Japanese culture needed to learn to accept Western Civilization and live politely with it&#39;s neighbors, and we needed to provide that education regardless of the cost.

    Now we have a Middle East full of Muslims who think they have the moral imperative to blow up anything they don&#39;t agree with...including buildings in other countries. Now they&#39;re in the process of learning their opinion is an expensive one.

    For centuries, Middle Eastern Muslims haven&#39;t tolerated anyone in the world who wasn&#39;t a Middle Eastern Muslim. Fine. But if you can&#39;t police your hatred, the world will do it for you. [/b][/quote]
    Excellent post. I never really heard about the way the Japanese treated our POW&#39;s. I did know that they revered their emperor like a diety. I actually had a conversation with a Japanese woman the other day who said the Americans destroyed their religion. I was surprised to hear this so I proded for more info. She said their religion was worship of the emperor. When Japan surrendered one of the terms was for the emperor to adress the nation and tell them he was not a diety.

    I could go on about the absurdity of her being Angry at America for enlightening them and bring them freedom but I think we all get the idea.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by JerryK+Oct 29 2004, 02:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (JerryK @ Oct 29 2004, 02:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-bitonti[/i]@Oct 29 2004, 12:14 PM
    [b] These are the same f--kers that suicide bombed the world trade center so you tell me about this war and how it&#39;s the right move. It&#39;s been the wrong move from the beginning, and right now it&#39;s a disaster on the ground.
    [/b][/quote]
    You&#39;re right.

    And because no political entity has declared war on US, we can&#39;t win...by definition....because there&#39;s nobody to surrender.

    And yet, pacifism tends to be hard on office buildings.

    My reason for being in Iraq is not the same as that advertised by Washington. I&#39;m happy we&#39;re there creating a magnet for these knuckleheads to come and be removed. We&#39;ve lost 1,000 soldiers thus far, but we&#39;re getting them at a 20 to 1 ratio or better.

    I don&#39;t know when it will be time to leave Iraq, but I do know that it isn&#39;t time yet. We&#39;ve lost only a tiny fraction of the people lost in other wars, and we have no discernible stance from ME governments that their culture is any more favorable to Western Civilization - and yes, Israel - So we wait...and continue the painful thankless task of burning this boil off the worlds&#39; collective butt. [/b][/quote]
    That is such a simpleton view of the situation. You are glad we are there because it is bringing the bad guys to us like a magnet? Do you think there are a finite number of terrorists? Do you think of the reasons why these people became terrorists? Do you ever think that we are most likely creating more terrorists by occupying Iraq? Don&#39;t you realize that the first Gulf War is what created Al Queda in the first place?

  18. #18
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    Section, please....

    What&#39;s your solution?

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Oct 29 2004, 03:03 PM
    [b] Section, please....

    What&#39;s your solution? [/b][/quote]
    I don&#39;t necessarily have a solution, I&#39;m not commander in chief. If I were president, though, I wouldn&#39;t use my own personal agenda to start a War. I would have met with my staff and had a rational plan made up. I would have listened to intelligence officials rather than tell them to tell me what I wanted to hear.

    I do know that this magnet theory doesn&#39;t hold any water. I do know that this war has not helped us become more safe. I do know that our relationship with the Muslim world is fractured, almost beyond repair.

  20. #20
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15+Oct 29 2004, 01:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Section109Row15 @ Oct 29 2004, 01:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by JerryK@Oct 29 2004, 02:29 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin-bitonti[/i]@Oct 29 2004, 12:14 PM
    [b] These are the same f--kers that suicide bombed the world trade center so you tell me about this war and how it&#39;s the right move. It&#39;s been the wrong move from the beginning, and right now it&#39;s a disaster on the ground.
    [/b][/quote]
    You&#39;re right.

    And because no political entity has declared war on US, we can&#39;t win...by definition....because there&#39;s nobody to surrender.

    And yet, pacifism tends to be hard on office buildings.

    My reason for being in Iraq is not the same as that advertised by Washington. I&#39;m happy we&#39;re there creating a magnet for these knuckleheads to come and be removed. We&#39;ve lost 1,000 soldiers thus far, but we&#39;re getting them at a 20 to 1 ratio or better.

    I don&#39;t know when it will be time to leave Iraq, but I do know that it isn&#39;t time yet. We&#39;ve lost only a tiny fraction of the people lost in other wars, and we have no discernible stance from ME governments that their culture is any more favorable to Western Civilization - and yes, Israel - So we wait...and continue the painful thankless task of burning this boil off the worlds&#39; collective butt. [/b][/quote]
    That is such a simpleton view of the situation. You are glad we are there because it is bringing the bad guys to us like a magnet? Do you think there are a finite number of terrorists? Do you think of the reasons why these people became terrorists? Do you ever think that we are most likely creating more terrorists by occupying Iraq? Don&#39;t you realize that the first Gulf War is what created Al Queda in the first place? [/b][/quote]
    This is an appeasers view of the situation. We shouldn&#39;t fight the terrorists because then they&#39;ll get even angrier and therefore more terrorists will be created. Instead you think we should appease them? How would that help?


    The terrorists were after us before the Iraq war. We just didnt&#39;t know about it. Now we know and we&#39;re going after them. That is a good thing.

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