this thread is supposed to be about how 8 marines died in guerrilla warfare yet youd rather make it a personal attack-a-thon
contrary to popular belief just repeating something and saying "oh yeah is that so? :lol: guffah guffah" doesn't actually constitute a discussion. besides flushing jet No one who has posted on this thread has the balls to actually talk about the topic so theyd rather talk s**t... whatever.
[quote][i]Originally posted by flushingjet[/i]@Oct 30 2004, 04:56 PM
I'm am starting to tire of repeating myself, but if you want to believe that all of these Islamic countries really want peace, or do not collude, or commit and support worldwide acts of terrorism, then you are beyond being convinced
and will continue to live in some naive Candyland where America's machinations are the cause for the world's ills. [/b][/quote]
i have no illusions about the world's terrorists but i can tell you without pause that what we are doing over there is only making things worse in the long run. We are still addicted to ME oil and we are creating terrorists every day with the mediocre planning and use of conventional weapons against a guerilla enemy.
[quote][b]I sure know and have been through a lot more than you, what's your educational background? I have a BS and MBA, if that matters
I have a BA and an MSIS and no it doesn't matter. You still aren't qualifed to be considered an expert in history or strategy so why do you act like you are?
[quote][b]Zinni and Clark are Clinton's generals, who give a flying f*ck what they think. [/b][/quote]
i didn't realize that the US armed forces divided it's soldiers by Republican and Democrat? Zinni and Clark both have been career military men who voted and served under GOP in a variety of circumstances for a little over 40 years. For you to say they are Clinton Generals marginalizes the lives of these great men, who know WAY more about military tactics and success than you, me and everyone on this board combined.
[quote][b]Do you honestly think, that Iraq is a guerilla war fought solely by the patriots of Iraq?? Do you know that we've captured and killed enough foreign combatants from Syria, SA, Jordan, Iran etc in Iraq to justify blowing all of these countries off the map? What are they doing there? [/b][/quote]
if it was up to you and your ilk we would be doing just that... too bad we are in bed with Saudi Arabia and the US military is too overstretched for the fronts it has - you call fallujah "in the crosshairs" is that code for a no-go zone controlled by insurgents?
face the facts this administration (regardless of a second term) will be judged by history as some of the most incompetant government servents for decades. Their policies are playing out ... and failing. Wake up and smell the coffee cause there will be a lot more dead for no reason just like the 8 poor bastards this thread was originally about... it is not responsible to keep wasting lives without a goal or an exit strategy - democracy in Iraq isn't a realistic goal, it is a pipe dream.
Look, unless we drill ANWR and LA, FL, etc we are not going to stop using ME oil.
We are not going back to days of the buggy-whip, period. We are not as far along with alternative fuels (including nuclear) as perhaps we should be, but nothing has come along to supplant petroleum fuels yet. You should however put away the violins and crocodile tears for those poor ME folks & face a harsh fact. The Arab & Islamic worlds are a chronically sick, misogynistic culture of hate and perversity that mindlessly lashes out at non-Muslims everywhere they live and breathe teh same air. Collectively, they could make a choice to live in peace and tolerance but they have bizarrely adopted an extreme stance, which is odd since they get their patoots kicked in every war they attempt to fight. Thus, they desperately resort to kamikaze tactics. Make no mistake, 9/11 was a kamikaze attack which delineated an everescalating trend of Islamic terrorism worldwide. This trend continued despite our attempts at humanitarianism towards Muslims in Somalia, Bosnia, and Kuwait , which despite your contention did not want to become a province of Iraq.
After years of ignoring, minimizing, and excusing sociopathic behavior, like your beloved General Zinni seems to do, "we dont understamd their culture" 9/11 galvanized many in our country to fight back and support destruction of this blot on the escutcheon of humanity. I care not if there is, or was no plan on 9/12 to destroy this evil, action had to happen. And if we did not start with Iraq, I can guarantee it would have been Iran or Libya and all the left would be saying the same things, another Vietnam etc. Which its not. 1st we gutted Husseins forces and
killed his evil spawn. Next, most of Iraq is free and doing much of what they want
outside the Sunni triangle. What you saw, and what you see now in that area was
the result of the US trying to win hearts and minds by abdicating authority to ex-Hussein forces. It is not the fault of the US that the Sunni's inhumanity did not deserve the 2nd chance we gave them in a very PC way. But I appplaud the way its gone since April-we got Allawi in; then we went back and kicked ass. Sadr, an Iranian agent in the Shia area is out of power for now, perhaps for good; Samarra was bombed into line and now Fallujah is next. In the crosshairs means just what it sounds like, in our sights as a target to be crushed. But you know what-if Iraq wants to split, they should. If Czech and Slovakia want to divorce, its good enough for Iraq. Kurdistan is pretty much autonomous anyway.
I dont need a PHD to say anything here, I'm middle aged, I've seen plenty happen in my lifetime,so I think I know which end is up. Im a US citizen, born and raised with a family to protect, brought up to respect the value of hard work and merit, not handouts and set-asides. Ive paid 1000s in taxes and higher costs in the name of NY-style socialism with little to show for it.
Ive seen good US Presidents and bad, I can tell you Bush is one of the best, if not the best. I would rank Reagan and JFK the 2 next best because they dared to defend our country and Carter the absolute worst.
Zinni and Clark are no heroes-RINOS of the Rockefeller type, they achieved little in command despite any personal Vietnam honors. Schwarzkopf and Franks dwarf them immensely in word and deed, guess who they think should be running things?
In fact the DNC is running around calling people saying Schwarzkopf is endorsing Kerry! A lie! What makes Zinnia and Clark so great in the eyes of the left, who hate the military, is that they chose to speak out against Bush.
I cant argue with you any more on the merits of beating down Iraq. They were too dangerous to try to contain. Unfortunately, politics and the desire for the Socialists to regain power are obscuring that fact. The left also said the same things about Germany and Japan and Eastern Europe, that they were too bellicose and ethnocentric to be small-d democratic. History proved them wrong.
[b]flushing jet[/b] let me just say from the outset i am enjoying this exchange immensely. WE don't agree but there's good civil back and forth...
[quote][b]Look, unless we drill ANWR and LA, FL, etc we are not going to stop using ME oil. [/b][/quote]
i have absolutely no problem with drilling domestically - the economics of extraction dictate that Iraqi oil (before the second war) was less than a dollar per barrell in overhead - in the 1950's the British took Iraq, opened the spigots and flooded the oil market from dollar per barrel to pennies per. Saudi is very cheap as well but not that cheap... ANWR due to climate and where the oil is would be about 10 dollars per to extract. So go ahead drill away is what I say... that's not what big oil really wants. They want the stuff that comes up like Beverly hillbillies.
i am a realist and will concede that the Iraqi oil would have been purchased by someone, be it the Russian, Chinese or whoever... but the administration seems to not care that even the Iraqi oil will only prolong the inevitable
note that there is no attempt by the administration to cut down whatsoever on oil consumption. Cutting AVG MPG by about 1 MPG (not alot to ask for) would equate to millions of barrels of oil saved per day.
[quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti+Oct 30 2004, 04:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (bitonti @ Oct 30 2004, 04:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Jetsin04[/i]@Oct 30 2004, 12:46 PM
[b] Learn something about history. [/b][/quote]
i know about history - do you?
the British tried to colonize Iraq twice and failed miserably both times ... no one has been able to tame Afghanistan for the last 50 years ... also you say the President is not in charge of fighting guerrilla warfare meanwhile he won't even ADMIT that we are involved in Guerrilla warfare. [/b][/quote]
democracy hasnt even flourished in post soviet nations which were under communism and those people are 100000 times more like us culturaly than muslims/arabs/ whatever.
its such folly to think there will be a western democracy in iraq good call bit fight the good fight.
Yep! it's a war....what do you expect? So what 8 more Marines dead. Right?
It's not my son....not my cousin....not my brother or sister....not my mother or father. It's a WAR! suck it up! I mean COME ON!! You know there's a reason no one is allowed to photograph the coffins coming back. You're not allowed to see the body boxes. THIS IS WAR!!!
<insert sarcasm above>
How many of you here would send your son or daughter to fight in a Vietnam or Iraq war? or whatever war our fat-ass politicians who sit in Washington stick our nose into to fight veiled behind some bs noble reason to save some godforsaken country from itself while their kids don't fight in it...no they're all safe at home in their rich fat-ass politician parents' home.