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Thread: Reformed Communist tells is like it is

  1. #1
    Those who are leaning towards John Kerry, here is one last chance to think about the choice you are about to make

    Here is one last chance to consider what you are about to do ... and to consider how you may regret this vote for the rest of your life, which may not be as long as you think should we make a colossal mistake

    I am mostly appealing to the younger members of this board who have no real recollection of the Vietnam era, thus have no way of seeing the similarities between todays anti-war movement and that of an era gone by

    One man who has regretted taking place in the Vietnam anti-war movement for 20 years has devoted the rest of his life to undoing the damage he did to this country in his youth ... he has made it his lifes mission to warn todays youth against making the same mistakes he once made

    This man was a leader of the anti-war movement during Vietnam ... he was one of the infamous Chicago Seven as he ran with Abbie Hoffman, Tom Haden, Jane Fonda, and all of those who led the movement ... in fact, dupes like Kerry and Fonda once took their marching orders from this man

    But many years ago he saw the light ... literally had a road to demascus conversion ... he happens to be the only leader of the Vietnam anti-war movement who has experienced such a conversion, thus he has spent his entire adult life confessing their sins of literally working in accordance with the communists to undermine the war in Vietnam and bring the U.S. to defeat

    This was their stated mission, though they colored it in poetic language of peace, love, and the botherhood of man ... but the real mission, the one they never discussed publicly, was to undermine the U.S. effort in Vietnam, erode support here at home, then eventually bring about the U.S. defeat

    This man has written extensively about THE WAR ON TERROR ... how he sees many of the same players behind todays anti-war movement ... many of the same commies he once called comrades ... and how once again they are decieving the masses with talk of their concerns for the troops and all of the things that would make them sound noble, though their true intentions could not be more sinister

    THESE PEOPLE HATE THIS COUNTRY ... some of us old timers are not over-stating that ... we have seen these wolves in sheeps clothing before and we recognize them all to well

    So I would take this one last opportunity to appeal to the younger members of this board ... the ones who MEAN WELL but have simply been decieved by a very clever lot ... please take this one last chance to consider what you are about to do, and please don't do something you will live to regret {as did the man who wrote the following column}

    [quote][b][b]DAVID HOROWITZ[/b]

    A political ad was placed in the New York Times by the radical organization MoveOn.org, a group that has provided a platform for attacks on the Bush Administration by Howard Dean, Al Gore and members of the Kerry-Edwards campaign. The ad was an open letter purportedly from college students and began: "President Bush Will You Call On Us To Die?"

    This was not really criticism of the President's policy choices or of America's war to liberate Iraq, but rather a frontal attack on both. In addition to its blunt and unwarranted assertion that service to one's country was equivalent to a death sentence, it falsely insinuated that the President was planning a military draft, which would make the service as involuntary as …well …a death sentence would be. Finally, it demanded that the President provide "a plan to end the war," and did so without expressing the slightest concern about the war's outcome. In other words, in the midst of America's armed conflict with a terrifying enemy the MoveOn.org ad was an incitement to self-interest, cowardice and defeat. The ad ended with a parsing of John Kerry's famous question about Vietnam - a war he first abandoned and then turned against: "Most importantly, when will we know that the last of our friends has died?"

    What has happened to the moral fiber of this country that a group as close to the center of American political life as MoveOn.org would counsel cowardice, selfishness and defeat in the midst of a war with an enemy as ruthless and determined as the terrorists in Iraq? The war in Iraq was authorized in congressional resolution by both political parties. It is a war to enforce a unanimous Security Council ultimatum, and sixteen ignored Security Council ultimatums before that. It is a war to depose one of the worst tyrants of the modern world, whose removal is a policy requested by two successive American presidents, again representing both political parties. It is a war in which every enemy of the United States is ranged on the other side. What has happened to the moral fiber of this country that an organization like MoveOn.org - along with many leaders of the Democratic Party -- should actively seek to sabotage this war by turning America's youth against it, and demanding a retreat from the field of battle without condition?

    The retreat from Vietnam and Cambodia that Mr. Kerry did so much to encourage thirty years ago had an unhappy ending that critics of this war seem eager to forget. That retreat resulted in the deaths of two-and-half million Indo-Chinese peasants whom the Communists slaughtered when they came to power. This is infamous bloodbath whose prospect John Kerry dismissed as a possibility when he debated Swift Boat vet John O'Neill on the Dick Cavett show. John Kerry proved wrong then. What if the proponents of retreat from Iraq prove wrong this time?

    If the United States were to lose the battle for Iraq (and a retreat without condition would ensure that), there would be a similar bloodbath. Every Iraqi who has fought for their freedom, every ally of America in Iraq will be put to the sword by Zarqawi and his terrorist cohorts - many quite literally. The terrorist government of Iran, whose jihadists are now engaged in fighting our troops alongside the agents of Saddam Hussein will emerge from our retreat as the dominant force in a radicalized Middle East. Revenge against the crusaders will be high on its agenda.

    It is time for us to take the counsels of doom in our midst seriously. The threat we face is not only external. American troops can army in the field of battle. What America cannot do is win the war on terror if the forces of selfishness and cowardice and defeatism divide us at home.[/b][/quote]

  2. #2
    Hammer you and I have spoken frankly about a variety of subjects but never politics... why is that?

    I read this and all i can say is if you want to convince me that im going to vote for the wrong guy please answer these two questions...

    1) why should this man regret his past? Communism lost in the long run but in the short run US lost Vietnam Conflict. History has proven this to be true as the nose on my face. If he was so against communism maybe he should learn from the fact that history has proven you don't fight an ideology with prolonged guerrilla warfare you fight it in other ways. We were never convinced as a country that was the right move and maybe that's a lesson to be learned about waging war in a democracy? Conventional warfare is good for countries and armies, but bad for terrorists. This was in true in Vietnam as it is today. John Kerry didn't lose the war for the US, it was a doomed conflict from the get-go. I believe that those that do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them... so the question again is why should this man regret his past if it all worked out in the end regardless of the conflicts on the ground at the time?

    2) which brings us to the terrorists themselves... yes they are a different foe than the communists... but did you ever ask yourself why? do you really believe that terrorists are willing to die to make a point just cause they are crazy? brainwashed? stupid?

    i believe that every day America (and the rest of the industrialized world) exploits the people of the middle east by perpetuating situations that screw the man on the street - we pay for oil that the kings sell and the people get s--t. We want to spread democracy but you can't have a democracy in a place where there is no economy to speak of besides Poppy and Body Armor.

    oh yeah also the fact we created, defended and every day aid Israel doesn't help matters. This is the context of the situation as I see it, how am I wrong?

    besides shakin and 5ever I don't expect any conservative to answer me respectfully but i know i can count on a civil exchange with you ham. Thanks in advance.

  3. #3
    Tom The Nader Fan™
    Guest
    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 30 2004, 04:45 PM
    [b] Hammer you and I have spoken frankly about a variety of subjects but never politics... why is that?

    I read this and all i can say is if you want to convince me that im going to vote for the wrong guy please answer these two questions...

    1) why should this man regret his past? Communism lost in the long run but in the short run US lost Vietnam Conflict. History has proven this to be true as the nose on my face. If he was so against communism maybe he should learn from the fact that history has proven you don't fight an ideology with prolonged guerrilla warfare you fight it in other ways. We were never convinced as a country that was the right move and maybe that's a lesson to be learned about waging war in a democracy? Conventional warfare is good for countries and armies, but bad for terrorists. This was in true in Vietnam as it is today. John Kerry didn't lose the war for the US, it was a doomed conflict from the get-go. I believe that those that do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them... so the question again is why should this man regret his past if it all worked out in the end regardless of the conflicts on the ground at the time?

    2) which brings us to the terrorists themselves... yes they are a different foe than the communists... but did you ever ask yourself why? do you really believe that terrorists are willing to die to make a point just cause they are crazy? brainwashed? stupid?

    i believe that every day America (and the rest of the industrialized world) exploits the people of the middle east by perpetuating situations that screw the man on the street - we pay for oil that the kings sell and the people get s--t. We want to spread democracy but you can't have a democracy in a place where there is no economy to speak of besides Poppy and Body Armor.

    oh yeah also the fact we created, defended and every day aid Israel doesn't help matters. This is the context of the situation as I see it, how am I wrong?

    besides shakin and 5ever I don't expect any conservative to answer me respectfully but i know i can count on a civil exchange with you ham. Thanks in advance. [/b][/quote]
    Communism
    ideology
    guerrilla warfare
    terrorists
    the industrialized world
    exploits
    the people of the middle east
    perpetuating situations
    screw the man on the street
    oil
    kings
    democracy
    economy
    Poppy
    Body Armor
    Israel
    prattle
    blah blah blah

  4. #4
    flushingjet
    Guest
    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 30 2004, 04:45 PM
    [b] Hammer you and I have spoken frankly about a variety of subjects but never politics... why is that?

    I read this and all i can say is if you want to convince me that im going to vote for the wrong guy please answer these two questions...

    1) why should this man regret his past? Communism lost in the long run but in the short run US lost Vietnam Conflict. History has proven this to be true as the nose on my face. If he was so against communism maybe he should learn from the fact that history has proven you don't fight an ideology with prolonged guerrilla warfare you fight it in other ways. We were never convinced as a country that was the right move and maybe that's a lesson to be learned about waging war in a democracy? Conventional warfare is good for countries and armies, but bad for terrorists. This was in true in Vietnam as it is today. John Kerry didn't lose the war for the US, it was a doomed conflict from the get-go. I believe that those that do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them... so the question again is why should this man regret his past if it all worked out in the end regardless of the conflicts on the ground at the time?

    2) which brings us to the terrorists themselves... yes they are a different foe than the communists... but did you ever ask yourself why? do you really believe that terrorists are willing to die to make a point just cause they are crazy? brainwashed? stupid?

    i believe that every day America (and the rest of the industrialized world) exploits the people of the middle east by perpetuating situations that screw the man on the street - we pay for oil that the kings sell and the people get s--t. We want to spread democracy but you can't have a democracy in a place where there is no economy to speak of besides Poppy and Body Armor.

    oh yeah also the fact we created, defended and every day aid Israel doesn't help matters. This is the context of the situation as I see it, how am I wrong?

    besides shakin and 5ever I don't expect any conservative to answer me respectfully but i know i can count on a civil exchange with you ham. Thanks in advance. [/b][/quote]
    Complete & utter naivete and nonsense.

    Kerry should regret his past, because it was false and full of lies and illegality.

    If there were any justice in the world, theis man would have been thrown in jail and never served in public office. 1st you dont come back from a war thats not over and (if he was honorably discharged, which there isnt any proof of)
    and 1) lie about your fellow soldiers to Congress (perjury) and 2) consort with the enemy. That is a violation of the Logan Act (never enforced, sadly) and the Espionage Act (which some have been jailed for) Look these up and tell me how Kerry did not break these laws. You throw your ribbons/medals away, slander your fellow servicemen, then turn around and declare yourself reporting for duty?
    Yes in the Soviet Army!

    2nd, Communism as an utopian ideal appealed to many, but in practice is a utter failure, as is Socialism. But if you want to be a Socialist and believe you should sponge off my success thats your prerogative, just as its mine to avoid it.
    Kerry in the Senate often, if not 100% voted against military expenditures, wanted a nuclear freeze, voted against the 1st Gulf War etc. How was that fighting Communism and hatred, which was an extremely grave danger to the US?

    3rd, Why would you give moral equivalence to terrorists. They and their culture are full of hate and intolerance. Their culture is anti-European, anti-Western, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian and anti-Female. Their cultural practices are illegal in the US! If you havent heard, sharia is NOT a separation of church and state. The proper analogy is to Imperial Japan who thought the sun shone out the Emperors ass and tried to colonize all their neighbors, killing, raping and terrorizing as they did it. They blew themselves up (kamikazes are not a drink,dude) just like you know who. They wouldnt even quit fighting after 1 atomic bomb!

    4th Your belief about America exploiting the Middle East is patently false. Westerners found the oil, and set up the infrastructure. To this day, SA is dependent on foreign workers to process it, ane we pay market prices which are governed by a predominantly Arab cartel-OPEC. But we're not the only customers-China has a voracious appetite for the stuff too. The ones doing any exploiting are the local Arab governments, not us. Too bad you are so against drilling in ANWR.

    5th Of course you have to throw in Israel in there. As a Catholic, Israel
    is my holy land too. Sorry to disappoint you but Israel has every right to exist.
    Their historic persecution and suffering, which cannot be denied, is the crucible of their statehood. This was determined years before WWII, read about the Balfour declaration. (November 2nd, 1917) Due the wars they did not initiate, fought and won over superior numbers, they also have every right to have seized every grain of sand and every drop of oil in the ME as victors over the allied Arab forces. Theyve even given some back. But I forgot you were not alive in 1967, or 1973 to see Israel viciously attacked by their peaceful neighbors, who were Russian proxies. Lets get it out there-what do you hate about Israel? Dont like your Jewish neighbors, or how they vote, or what they have? I would be proud to call myself a Jew anyday before I consider myself a Muslim, Buddhist, or any of the other false/pagan isms out there. Israel is a democratic state, and an ally. Do you think if Israel ceased to exist, Islamic hate and intolerance would end. Look at India, loaded with Jews. Because your beloved UN, a worthless mobocracy, thinks Zionism=Racism you do too. You sound like an anti-Semite, I feel sorry for you.

  5. #5
    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Oct 30 2004, 05:45 PM
    [b] Hammer you and I have spoken frankly about a variety of subjects but never politics... why is that?

    I read this and all i can say is if you want to convince me that im going to vote for the wrong guy please answer these two questions...

    1) why should this man regret his past? Communism lost in the long run but in the short run US lost Vietnam Conflict. History has proven this to be true as the nose on my face. If he was so against communism maybe he should learn from the fact that history has proven you don't fight an ideology with prolonged guerrilla warfare you fight it in other ways. We were never convinced as a country that was the right move and maybe that's a lesson to be learned about waging war in a democracy? Conventional warfare is good for countries and armies, but bad for terrorists. This was in true in Vietnam as it is today. John Kerry didn't lose the war for the US, it was a doomed conflict from the get-go. I believe that those that do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them... so the question again is why should this man regret his past if it all worked out in the end regardless of the conflicts on the ground at the time?

    2) which brings us to the terrorists themselves... yes they are a different foe than the communists... but did you ever ask yourself why? do you really believe that terrorists are willing to die to make a point just cause they are crazy? brainwashed? stupid?

    i believe that every day America (and the rest of the industrialized world) exploits the people of the middle east by perpetuating situations that screw the man on the street - we pay for oil that the kings sell and the people get s--t. We want to spread democracy but you can't have a democracy in a place where there is no economy to speak of besides Poppy and Body Armor.

    oh yeah also the fact we created, defended and every day aid Israel doesn't help matters. This is the context of the situation as I see it, how am I wrong?

    besides shakin and 5ever I don't expect any conservative to answer me respectfully but i know i can count on a civil exchange with you ham. Thanks in advance. [/b][/quote]
    Bitonti, before I answer your question {respectfully for certain}, let me first say that I am not encouraging the younger folks to vote for GWB with winning or losing in mind ... that will take care of itself, one way or the other ... but I am concerned that some WELL MEANING younger folks on this board may be on the verge of making a mistake they will live to regret

    I saw this happen during nam with my own friends ... friends who till this day regret many of the choices they made during that era

    And it's not a small regret ... when one comes to realize they made a mistake that harmed the country they love, it is a mistake that knaws at you for the rest of your life

    I know what Horowitz is going through cause I have seen the same metamorphisis with many of my owns friends ... some family members as well ... and like Horowitz, once you realize you may have harmed your country during a time of war, believing those you trusted meant well only to learn you were used in an effort to damage your own country, you naturally become fierce in warning future generations against being decieved in a similar fashion

    Now you know me fairly well, Bit ... you know that I am no poster child for what one would normally precieve as a traditional conservative ... in many ways I led a life that was far more in concert with the counter culture, but I was lucky cause even as a young man {smoking weed, chasing skirts, and what have you}, I never joined the counter culture POLITICALLY cause I instinctively smelled a rat in that regard

    I'm no angel ... never have been and I'm not one now ... I have never been the poster child for the Republican party ... but I have always loved my country and I have always avoided any political identification with folks who feel anything other than an unabashed love for this nation

    Again, in that respect I was lucky ... it was pure luck ... cause neither of my parents were political and if anything they voted democrat ... but there was just something about the counter culture {politically} that rubbed me the wrong way

    It took years for me to fully recognize exactly what it was about the lefts politics that rubbed me wrong ... and by fully recognize I mean till I came to understand how truly sinister their motives were during nam

    As a youngster I had no idea that so many leaders of that movement were literally in bed with the communists ... it wasn't till YEARS LATER that I came to understand the full extent of their deception ... but unlike so many of my generation, I was not shocked to learn the truth cause I always found these folks to be somewhat hostile towards America, and that alone is why they rubbed me the wrong way from the outset

    Anyhow, I warn the young folks of this generation cause when I look at todays anti-war movement ... and I speak mainly of those who lead the movement ... I hear the same deceptions being spouted all over again, the same poetic language to mask their true intentions, and all of the same results {decieving so many of todays youth who absolutely MEAN WELL}

    But all of the same tactics are being regurgetated by todays anti-war movement ...

    1. We only care about the troops

    2. Pounce on every setback as a means towards declaring failure

    3. Convince todays youth they may die for a nothing cause

    4. Suggest todays soldiers are fighting for the same ... a nothing cause

    5. WRONG WAR, WRONG PLACE, WRONG TIME {A Kerry punchline taken right from the Vietnam playbook}

    6. Accuse the President, in so many words, of having blood on his hands for daring to send America's children off to a foreign land for a nothing cause

    7. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

    All designed to sound nobel and caring, yet the end result is to undermine support for the war on terror and divide the nation along these lines

    Some of us have seen this film before ... it's an instant replay ... we've heard all of the same charges, made by many of the same players, and sadly seen many of the same results

    Why are some of us old timers so gung-ho for GWB?

    Cause we've seen this act before ... last time the wrong side won ... but this time the stakes are so much greater cause if the wrong side wins this time around, the end result can easily be a dirty bomb in NYC or any number of American cities

    This is no longer about whether or not it makes sense to fight a battle in a far away land as to prevent the spread of a particular ideology ... this time it's about avoiding the mother of all disasters right here in our own backyard, and we damn well better chose the side that best gives us the chance to avoid such a disaster

    This time we cannot afford to be decieved ... we don't have that luxury ... last time it resulted in 2.5 Million slaughtered peasants in Vietnam ... this time it may very well be 2.5 Million Americans in NYC

  6. #6
    [quote][i]Originally posted by flushingjet[/i]@Oct 30 2004, 06:44 PM
    [b] 3rd, Why would you give moral equivalence to terrorists. They and their culture are full of hate and intolerance. Their culture is anti-European, anti-Western, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian and anti-Female. Their cultural practices are illegal in the US! [/b][/quote]
    As Ann Coulter so accurately stated, if they weren't terrorists liberals would hate the Islamo-facists

    They are anti everything liberals purport to hold dear

    Except the Islamo-facists position on Christianity ... on that one they have found a kindred spirit in the left :rolleyes:

  7. #7
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    ham, would you encourage the country that you have an unabashed love for to do something that you know is wrong? i'm speaking from a strategic standpoint, i doubt you would if you thought it was morally wrong.

    your response pre-supposes that winning in iraq will prevent another terrorist attack, when many of us believe [i]the effort itself[/i], the way it was/is being handled, the mistakes that have been made, regardless of the outcome, has put us and, more importantly, our children, in greater danger.

    i would feel better about the bush camp if they admitted things were not going as planned and sought counsel to straighten it out. they'll form a blue-ribbon panel to find out almost anything, but this is just a 'toe the party line' situation.

  8. #8
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham[/i]@Oct 30 2004, 04:36 PM
    [b] Those who are leaning towards John Kerry, here is one last chance to think about the choice you are about to make

    Here is one last chance to consider what you are about to do ... and to consider how you may regret this vote for the rest of your life, which may not be as long as you think should we make a colossal mistake

    I am mostly appealing to the younger members of this board who have no real recollection of the Vietnam era, thus have no way of seeing the similarities between todays anti-war movement and that of an era gone by

    One man who has regretted taking place in the Vietnam anti-war movement for 20 years has devoted the rest of his life to undoing the damage he did to this country in his youth ... he has made it his lifes mission to warn todays youth against making the same mistakes he once made

    This man was a leader of the anti-war movement during Vietnam ... he was one of the infamous Chicago Seven as he ran with Abbie Hoffman, Tom Haden, Jane Fonda, and all of those who led the movement ... in fact, dupes like Kerry and Fonda once took their marching orders from this man

    But many years ago he saw the light ... literally had a road to demascus conversion ... he happens to be the only leader of the Vietnam anti-war movement who has experienced such a conversion, thus he has spent his entire adult life confessing their sins of literally working in accordance with the communists to undermine the war in Vietnam and bring the U.S. to defeat

    This was their stated mission, though they colored it in poetic language of peace, love, and the botherhood of man ... but the real mission, the one they never discussed publicly, was to undermine the U.S. effort in Vietnam, erode support here at home, then eventually bring about the U.S. defeat

    This man has written extensively about THE WAR ON TERROR ... how he sees many of the same players behind todays anti-war movement ... many of the same commies he once called comrades ... and how once again they are decieving the masses with talk of their concerns for the troops and all of the things that would make them sound noble, though their true intentions could not be more sinister

    THESE PEOPLE HATE THIS COUNTRY ... some of us old timers are not over-stating that ... we have seen these wolves in sheeps clothing before and we recognize them all to well

    So I would take this one last opportunity to appeal to the younger members of this board ... the ones who MEAN WELL but have simply been decieved by a very clever lot ... please take this one last chance to consider what you are about to do, and please don't do something you will live to regret {as did the man who wrote the following column}

    [quote][b][b]DAVID HOROWITZ[/b]

    A political ad was placed in the New York Times by the radical organization MoveOn.org, a group that has provided a platform for attacks on the Bush Administration by Howard Dean, Al Gore and members of the Kerry-Edwards campaign. The ad was an open letter purportedly from college students and began: "President Bush Will You Call On Us To Die?"

    This was not really criticism of the President's policy choices or of America's war to liberate Iraq, but rather a frontal attack on both. In addition to its blunt and unwarranted assertion that service to one's country was equivalent to a death sentence, it falsely insinuated that the President was planning a military draft, which would make the service as involuntary as …well …a death sentence would be. Finally, it demanded that the President provide "a plan to end the war," and did so without expressing the slightest concern about the war's outcome. In other words, in the midst of America's armed conflict with a terrifying enemy the MoveOn.org ad was an incitement to self-interest, cowardice and defeat. The ad ended with a parsing of John Kerry's famous question about Vietnam - a war he first abandoned and then turned against: "Most importantly, when will we know that the last of our friends has died?"

    What has happened to the moral fiber of this country that a group as close to the center of American political life as MoveOn.org would counsel cowardice, selfishness and defeat in the midst of a war with an enemy as ruthless and determined as the terrorists in Iraq? The war in Iraq was authorized in congressional resolution by both political parties. It is a war to enforce a unanimous Security Council ultimatum, and sixteen ignored Security Council ultimatums before that. It is a war to depose one of the worst tyrants of the modern world, whose removal is a policy requested by two successive American presidents, again representing both political parties. It is a war in which every enemy of the United States is ranged on the other side. What has happened to the moral fiber of this country that an organization like MoveOn.org - along with many leaders of the Democratic Party -- should actively seek to sabotage this war by turning America's youth against it, and demanding a retreat from the field of battle without condition?

    The retreat from Vietnam and Cambodia that Mr. Kerry did so much to encourage thirty years ago had an unhappy ending that critics of this war seem eager to forget. That retreat resulted in the deaths of two-and-half million Indo-Chinese peasants whom the Communists slaughtered when they came to power. This is infamous bloodbath whose prospect John Kerry dismissed as a possibility when he debated Swift Boat vet John O'Neill on the Dick Cavett show. John Kerry proved wrong then. What if the proponents of retreat from Iraq prove wrong this time?

    If the United States were to lose the battle for Iraq (and a retreat without condition would ensure that), there would be a similar bloodbath. Every Iraqi who has fought for their freedom, every ally of America in Iraq will be put to the sword by Zarqawi and his terrorist cohorts - many quite literally. The terrorist government of Iran, whose jihadists are now engaged in fighting our troops alongside the agents of Saddam Hussein will emerge from our retreat as the dominant force in a radicalized Middle East. Revenge against the crusaders will be high on its agenda.

    It is time for us to take the counsels of doom in our midst seriously. The threat we face is not only external. American troops can army in the field of battle. What America cannot do is win the war on terror if the forces of selfishness and cowardice and defeatism divide us at home.[/b][/quote] [/b][/quote]
    Bitonti GJ&H is playing fast and loose with the facts. Neither Jane Fonda nor David Horowitz had anything to do with or were charged in the Chicago 7-8 trial proceedings.

    The Chicago 7-8 are(were)

    Abbie Hoffman
    Jerry Rubin
    David Dellinger
    Tom Hayden
    Renny Davis
    John Froines
    Lee Weiner

    and the 8th was Black Panther Party Member

    Bobby Seales

    Don't take my word for it....check it out. : [url=http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Chicago7/chicago7.html]http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f...7/chicago7.html[/url]


    This is not to say Horowitz was not a popular figure in the Left during the 60s - 70s. During that time he lived in the San Francisco Bay Area and was the Co-editor of Ramparts Magazine along with his buddy Peter Collier. Both of them jumped ship in the 80s when they found they could no longer support themselves with their politics so they turned tail and started The Center for the Study of Popular Culture a so called "think tank" which is bankrolled by a number of rightist and megacapitalist foundations.

    Horowitz was the first in a number of once prominent voices of the left who have decided to change their tune when their politics stopped providing for their creature comforts, like BMWs. Other names include Christopher Hitchens of Vanity Fair Magazine and Todd Gitlin of Rolling Stone Magazine

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