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Thread: there's no place like home

  1. #21
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    Ham, evolution is NOT atheism. That argument is a red herring.

    So, your solution is to restrict knowledge?

    Should we teach kids about gravity?

  2. #22
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    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham+Nov 5 2004, 05:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Green Jets & Ham @ Nov 5 2004, 05:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jets5ever@Nov 5 2004, 03:33 PM
    Yes, I was being serious. Ham, gravity is a theory too, should we stop teaching that?

    I have no problem if schools want to incorporate some sort of "intelligent design" stuff, but to simply ignore evolution is wrong, IMO. Knowledge is never the problem, and is usually part of the solution.

    Evolution is not tantamount to atheism, that is a dangerous oversimplification. The Book of Genesis is NOT the literal version of what created this earth. And even if it was, we&#39;d have no way of proving it, so it, too, is just a "theory." One of many, none more plausible than any other. Just because you or any other number of people have a deep emotional attachment to it does not give it scientific merit.
    What do you have a reading comprehension problem today?

    How many times must I say that I also DO NOT favor using taxpayer schools to teach creation either?

    Taxpayer schools should NOT be in the business of teaching either of the two

    If I happen to be an atheist, you have no right to teach my children creation

    And conversely, if I happen to subscribe to Genisis {i.e. creation}, you have no right to tell my children I&#39;m a liar or even wrong ... especially when you have no definitive proof to back it up [/b][/quote]
    As was pointed out several times.....There are a lot of "theories" out there that are being taught. The school systems have a duty to educate children. They must base their curriculum based on accepted theories. Simply teaching evolution does not say that their parents are ignorant. Most Christians do believe in evolution. We are not in the 18th century anymore. If someone has a problem with a school teaching widely accepted theorys then they should homeschool their children or send them to private school that teaches their beliefs. Many churches in the South have their own schools that don&#39;t cost a lot.

    Your suggestion of teaching children neither theory is rediculous.

  3. #23
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    Originally posted by Darkstar Rising@Nov 5 2004, 03:48 PM
    In effect, you appear (via this line of argument) to be against the Public School system as a whole. In THAT line of argument, I would agree. ALL education should be private. Those who wish to learn "creationism" can go to their schools, and those who wish to persue science can go to their own schools too. Plus we lose the vile teachers union, and the whole "religion in school" issue.
    BINGO&#33;&#33;

    That&#39;s why I support vouchers

    This way the left wing intelligencia can teach anything they damn well please, employ every crackpot scheme they can imagine, and social engeineer with children till their hearts are content ... so long as parents have the option of sending their children to schools where they are safe from such nonsense and where their values can be taught

    Let the parents decide, not the beauracrats

  4. #24
    As a Catholic, and a man of science, I prefer to believe that The Theory of Evolution simply shows the magnitude of God&#39;s creation. The fact that man evolved does not in any way restrict the greatness of God and what he created. In fact, I would say the opposite is true, with the huge pool of life on Earth as merely a another sign of the infallible brilliance of the Creator.

    God does not have to hide from science or the human quest for knowledge. To run from knowledge in the name of God is an affront to God. The creator gave humanity it&#39;s intelligence and drive to know for a reason. Not to be held back by ignorance.

  5. #25
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    Originally posted by jets5ever@Nov 5 2004, 03:49 PM
    Ham, evolution is NOT atheism. That argument is a red herring.

    So, your solution is to restrict knowledge?

    Should we teach kids about gravity?
    Read my repsonse to TS ... I&#39;m tired of repeating myself

  6. #26
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    Originally posted by Section109Row15@Nov 5 2004, 03:50 PM
    Your suggestion of teaching children neither theory is rediculous.
    Fine, then teach both ... are you down with that? <_<

    I didn&#39;t think so

  7. #27
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    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham+Nov 5 2004, 05:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Green Jets & Ham @ Nov 5 2004, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Section109Row15@Nov 5 2004, 03:50 PM
    Your suggestion of teaching children neither theory is rediculous.
    Fine, then teach both ... are you down with that? <_<

    I didn&#39;t think so [/b][/quote]
    You can&#39;t really teach both. The teacher inherantly will have a biased towards one view or the other. If they were forced to teach both I don&#39;t know how they could fairly portray the other side in a "fair and balanced" manner. There have to be standards in place and those standards should be set by the current scientific community. If their theories are proven wrong or flawed then modify the curriculum accordingly.

  8. #28
    Originally posted by Section109Row15+Nov 5 2004, 04:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Section109Row15 @ Nov 5 2004, 04:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham@Nov 5 2004, 05:58 PM
    <!--QuoteBegin-Section109Row15
    @Nov 5 2004, 03:50 PM
    Your suggestion of teaching children neither theory is rediculous.

    Fine, then teach both ... are you down with that? <_<

    I didn&#39;t think so
    You can&#39;t really teach both. The teacher inherantly will have a biased towards one view or the other. If they were forced to teach both I don&#39;t know how they could fairly portray the other side in a "fair and balanced" manner. There have to be standards in place and those standards should be set by the current scientific community. If their theories are proven wrong or flawed then modify the curriculum accordingly. [/b][/quote]
    Time to get rid of the re-defeat bush sig. Its over man. Give it up.

  9. #29
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    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
    Bottom Line: That is my subjective truth ... taken straight from the Book of Genesis

    That is what I choose to teach my children ... my subjective truth

    Millions of taxpayers believe the same, right or wrong

    Now do you have any DEFINITIVE PROOF to the contrary?

    If so, please produce it now ... I wanna see it ... I wanna see your DEFINITIVE PRROF, oh wise men of science <_<

    And if not, don&#39;t be using taxpayer schools to tell my children their religion is a fraud

    Fair enough?

  10. #30
    There are some theoriesin which both evolution as well as creationism are possible. In one the "days" spoken of in the bible actually refer to millions of years. After all god invented the concept of time. Also, a theory states that dinosaurs were wiped out in the flood of noah. Theres all kinds of overlaping theories. Just remember that no one has ever been able to prove that anything in the bible is untrue. As a religious person knowledge is not my enemy.

  11. #31
    Do you teach the bible in FULL, GJ&H, or just the passages that suit you?

    Remember, the bible is full of things even the most devout Catholic now finds immoral, and the Church backs that point.

  12. #32
    Just remember that no one has ever been able to prove that anything in the bible is untrue.
    The problem with that line of reasoning is that you cannot PROVE the Untrue. Lack of proof does not make something fact. For example, YOU cannot PROVE that I am not God, speaking to you through the internet in order to educate you. However, the fact that you cannot PROVE that, does not in and of itself make it true.

    To form your belief system on that line of reasoning is to go directly against the scientific method.

  13. #33
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    Originally posted by Darkstar Rising@Nov 5 2004, 04:23 PM
    Do you teach the bible in FULL, GJ&H, or just the passages that suit you?

    Remember, the bible is full of things even the most devout Catholic now finds immoral, and the Church backs that point.
    That&#39;s not the point ... what I chose to teach my children is my business

    We&#39;re talking about evolution being taught in taxpayer schools, so let&#39;s stick to the topic

    Now can any of you wise men of science offer DEFINITIVE PROOF that creation, as taken from the Book of Genesis, is a fraud?

    If not, I would appreciate if you would not ask my children to deny their subjective truth in favor of your "subjective turth"

    And I promise to respect your right to impart your subjective truth to your children as well

    Can I ask for the same courtesy?

  14. #34
    Originally posted by Darkstar Rising@Nov 5 2004, 04:26 PM
    Just remember that no one has ever been able to prove that anything in the bible is untrue.
    The problem with that line of reasoning is that you cannot PROVE the Untrue. Lack of proof does not make something fact. For example, YOU cannot PROVE that I am not God, speaking to you through the internet in order to educate you. However, the fact that you cannot PROVE that, does not in and of itself make it true.

    To form your belief system on that line of reasoning is to go directly against the scientific method.
    You really love to take things out of context, The point was that science has never debunked religion. Therefore theres no reason to be against teaching scientific theories.

  15. #35
    If so, please produce it now ... I wanna see it ... I wanna see your DEFINITIVE PRROF, oh wise men of science
    Now can any of you wise men of science offer DEFINITIVE PROOF that creation, as taken from the Book of Genesis, is a fraud?

    If not, I would appreciate if you would not ask my children to deny their subjective truth in favor of your "subjective turth"
    Out of curiosity, what is your veiw of the pre-human (by "Theory of Evolution" standards) such as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Homo erectus & Australopithecus robustus?

    I must also point out that taxonimy of species is (and will always be) a changing science. That fact alone does not discredit it. Even today, we are always finding new facts (yes facts) regarding the species that exist today, and their immediate predecessors who may have died off within recent (recordable) history. New data found on old species will always result in changes to the taxonimic debate.

  16. #36
    Now can any of you wise men of science offer DEFINITIVE PROOF that creation, as taken from the Book of Genesis, is a fraud?
    Actually, yes. Carbon Dating is a scientific fact, not a theory. And Carbon Dating proves that humans existed well beyond the scope laid out in the bible. In fact, Carbon dating debunks just about EVERY timeline provided for in your "theory of creationism".

    Again, if you now say Carbon Dating is only a "theory", you move even deeper into removing ALL science from Public Education. While I agree that education should be via private schools only, it is not likely to become reality. So within that limitation, we have to choose the most credable science possible. And eveolution simply blows creationism out of the water when it comes to hard proof. The ONLY proof of creationism in the written word of the bible, a book that has gone through a documented number of revisions and translations over the past 1800 years.

  17. #37
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    Originally posted by Darkstar Rising@Nov 5 2004, 04:32 PM
    If so, please produce it now ... I wanna see it ... I wanna see your DEFINITIVE PRROF, oh wise men of science
    Now can any of you wise men of science offer DEFINITIVE PROOF that creation, as taken from the Book of Genesis, is a fraud?

    If not, I would appreciate if you would not ask my children to deny their subjective truth in favor of your "subjective turth"
    Out of curiosity, what is your veiw of the pre-human (by "Theory of Evolution" standards) such as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Homo erectus & Australopithecus robustus?

    I must also point out that taxonimy of species is (and will always be) a changing science. That fact alone does not discredit it. Even today, we are always finding new facts (yes facts) regarding the species that exist today, and their immediate predecessors who may have died off within recent (recordable) history. New data found on old species will always result in changes to the taxonimic debate.
    While I am impressed by your depth {seriously speaking}, I believe what you have said here is that you do not have any definitive proof to debunk creation?

    In other words, you cannot disprove the possibility that GOD did indeed create the human species?

    If I misunderstood and you do indeed have definitive proof which debunks the possibility of creation, I would still love to see it

    And if you cannot offer such definitive proof, why should my children accept your theories {clever and educated as they may be} over their own subjective truth about the origin of mankind?

    And why should taxpayer schools be telling these children their subjective truth is a lie?

    Can you prove it&#39;s a lie?

  18. #38
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    Can anyone prove right now that the sun won&#39;t burn out by tomorrow? No, they can&#39;t. The only way to know that for certain is to wait until tomorrow and check for sunlight. All we can do is work in the realm of probability. It is very improbable, depsite the best efforts of SUV owners, that the sun will burn out by tomorrow. So, what is the harm in teaching that to our children now?

    No one can prove a negative, by definition. If your threshold is proof, than any wild, unsupported, improbable theory would be just as valid as any other, and we&#39;d never learn anything.

    Ham, you believe in the Bible. However, you have a lower standard for that theory than you do for evolution. You can&#39;t even come close to proving what&#39;s in the Bible and I think the evidence we&#39;ve uncovered suggests that evolution is far, far more probable of a scenario than the notion that the world was formed in six days and that human being pre-dated all other forms of life. But you are right, we can&#39;t PROVE that 100%, so your rhetorical point, while largely symbolic IMO, holds in a strict sense. The burden of proof does not fall onto those listening to ideas, it falls on those who create them. Things aren&#39;t assumed to be true until proven false. That is simply absurd. I can appreciate that you have your views and respect that you think both evolution and creationism have no place in school. It is quite fair of you to have that opinion. I simply disagree, and, frankly, disagree passionately. But I appreciate your honesty.

  19. #39
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    Originally posted by Darkstar Rising@Nov 5 2004, 04:39 PM
    Actually, yes. Carbon Dating is a scientific fact, not a theory. And Carbon Dating proves that humans existed well beyond the scope laid out in the bible. In fact, Carbon dating debunks just about EVERY timeline provided for in your "theory of creationism"
    Where in Genesis is there an actual date or timeline offered for the creation of man?

    I must have missed it, cause I never saw one

  20. #40
    Originally posted by Darkstar Rising@Nov 5 2004, 04:39 PM
    Now can any of you wise men of science offer DEFINITIVE PROOF that creation, as taken from the Book of Genesis, is a fraud?
    Actually, yes. Carbon Dating is a scientific fact, not a theory. And Carbon Dating proves that humans existed well beyond the scope laid out in the bible. In fact, Carbon dating debunks just about EVERY timeline provided for in your "theory of creationism".

    Again, if you now say Carbon Dating is only a "theory", you move even deeper into removing ALL science from Public Education. While I agree that education should be via private schools only, it is not likely to become reality. So within that limitation, we have to choose the most credable science possible. And eveolution simply blows creationism out of the water when it comes to hard proof. The ONLY proof of creationism in the written word of the bible, a book that has gone through a documented number of revisions and translations over the past 1800 years.
    There are some interesting proofs for creationism as well. Unfortunately while I have heard many of them I really can&#39;t remember them. Oh well. I do know that carbon dating includes assumptions which can&#39;t be proven. That is the reason why sometimes things that are carbon dated are off by millions of years. As I said earlier in creationism it could have been 10 million years between the creation of the animals and the creation of man.

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