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Thread: The Greatest thing this election accomplished

  1. #21
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Darkstar Rising[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 03:34 PM
    [b] And for every case like this, there are HUNDREDS of cases of minorities being killed because of their race, Homosexuals being killed for the sexual preference, Foreigners being killed for the nation of origin and Women being killed because they were women.

    I don't think you can pretend that Christianity is somehow being trod upon in America, because it isn't IMO. [u][b]Freedom of speech AS A WHOLE[/b][/u] is under assualt here in America (some of that assualt led by Conservative Christians, but most of it from P.C. Liberals). Many Christians love Freedom of Speech when it's their rite to speak about their religious views, but cannot stand it when it's Larry Flint or anyone against their teachings.

    Christianity itself is not in ANY danger here in the U.S., not remotely. If anything, it is atheists and anti-religion in Govt. types who have to fear nowadays. Clearly, the more religious (read: Christian) element in our society is now in control of our Government.

    This actually leads me to an interesting idea for a thread....... [/b][/quote]
    There's one big difference, and it's the point I was attempting to convey

    Hypocritical liberals with their PC induced speech codes are the first to point out that rethoric begets violence ... but there are no limitations where it pertains to rethorical attacks on people of faith

    Now I'm all for people speaking their minds ... we cannot be responsible for the actions of every lunatic ... but the left seems to have a different set of standards

    Their PC mantra reads ... All bigorty is off limits, except where it pertains to attacking people of faith

    They are the worst kind of hypocrites ... they are what they accuse others of being

  2. #22
    [quote][i]Originally posted by isired[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 08:58 AM
    [b] quick question:

    how many of you who consider yourselves christians consider the virgin birth absolute 100% fact?

    i'm not trying to insult (i'm from a long line of irish and italian catholics), i'm curious.

    i confess that ham's statement surprised me, i always figured most christians of my generation believed more in the idea of the christian god, and not in the item-by-item characterization of god etc. as described in the bible. [/b][/quote]
    isired ... I too am a Catholic, and [b]the virgin birth[/b] is a basic tenant of Catholisim/Christianity

    Christian means believer is Christ ... the Christ is the Son of GOD

    How can he be what he claimed to be ... the Son of GOD ... if he was not conceived by GOD?

    I do not see see how one can deny the Virgin Birth ... deny that Christ was borne from the seed of the Almighty ... instead believe he was the seed of Joseph {or even a bastard} ... yet still call him the Son of GOD?

    As a Catholic I learned from the outset that the virgin birth is a basic tenant of Christianity ... an absolute esstential ... and since I believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be {The Christ and the Son of the living GOD}, I believe with all of my heart in the Virgin Birth

    In short, my entire faith revolves around the Virgin Birth ... if it were not so, my entire faith would be built on a lie ... Jesus would not even be a good man or a prophet ... in effect he would have perpertrated the greatest hoax in the history of mankind ... he is either the Son of GOD {as he claimed to be}, or he is the greatest fraud in the history of the world

    Each man needs to decide for himself which of the two Jesus is, but I do not see how one can divorce the virgin birth from their belief in Jesus yet still call him "The Christ" {i.e. The Son of GOD}

    And to be clear for those who do not believe ... isired and myself are not discussing what others need to believe ... we are discussing an essential part of Catholic/Christian doctrine

  3. #23
    for all this hate toward the left no one seems to notice the urban guerrilla warfare taking place - FoxNews shows Laci Peterson trial non-stop, doesn't mention the 11 GI's killed yesterday. We will take Fallujah but will we keep it?

    all i have to say is that you guys want George Bush you are going to get him in spades... be careful what you wish for... it will be the soldiers that suffer...

    The upside to a Kerry loss is that one way or another this great neoconservative experiment of devaluing the dollar, running buck wild across the ME will play out... i honestly say i hope i'm wrong...

  4. #24
    Actually, not to be picky but the immaculate conception dosn't refer to the virgin birth. The immaculate conception refers to the beleif that Mary was conceived without original sin.

  5. #25
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Oakliusmaximus[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 06:01 PM
    [b] Actually, not to be picky but the immaculate conception dosn't refer to the virgin birth. The immaculate conception refers to the beleif that Mary was conceived without original sin. [/b][/quote]
    I stand corrcted ... but both are basic tenants of Catholicism ... the immaculate conception and the Virgin Birth

    MY BAD for confusing the two ... don't tell my old nuns cause I'm certain they still have that ruler :huh:

  6. #26
    Green Jets & Ham,

    Why do you believe in the tenents of the Catholic Faith? Can you exlain why you believe? Can you verbalize the reasoning behind your faith?

  7. #27
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Darkstar Rising[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 06:53 PM
    [b] Green Jets & Ham,

    Why do you believe in the tenents of the Catholic Faith? Can you exlain why you believe? Can you verbalize the reasoning behind your faith? [/b][/quote]
    [i]For those who believe, no explanation is necessary

    For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible[/i]

    End of story

  8. #28
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham+Nov 9 2004, 06:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Green Jets & Ham @ Nov 9 2004, 06:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Darkstar Rising[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 06:53 PM
    [b] Green Jets & Ham,

    Why do you believe in the tenents of the Catholic Faith? Can you exlain why you believe? Can you verbalize the reasoning behind your faith? [/b][/quote]
    [i]For those who believe, no explanation is necessary

    For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible[/i]

    End of story [/b][/quote]
    And for those who have no explaination, a psudo-philosophical copout that says nothing must suffice.

    In other words, you couldn&#39;t come up with a single reason behind your beliefs. Hell, I would have accepted "Because my parents taught it to me" as a legit answer, but you couldn&#39;t even come up with that.

  9. #29
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Darkstar Rising+Nov 9 2004, 07:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Darkstar Rising &#064; Nov 9 2004, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham@Nov 9 2004, 06:57 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin-Darkstar Rising[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 06:53 PM
    [b] Green Jets & Ham,

    Why do you believe in the tenents of the Catholic Faith? Can you exlain why you believe? Can you verbalize the reasoning behind your faith? [/b][/quote]
    [i]For those who believe, no explanation is necessary

    For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible[/i]

    End of story [/b][/quote]
    And for those who have no explaination, a psudo-philosophical copout that says nothing must suffice.

    In other words, you couldn&#39;t come up with a single reason behind your beliefs. Hell, I would have accepted "Because my parents taught it to me" as a legit answer, but you couldn&#39;t even come up with that. [/b][/quote]
    No, I was actually being honest with you, and if you weren&#39;t so determined to pick a fight over religion you would see that

    It is impossible to explain an article of faith to one who does not share your faith

    And it is entirely unnecessary to do so with one who does share your faith

    I&#39;m sorry if that answer does not suffice with you, but dems the facts

    So why not just respect our differences and move along?

  10. #30
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham+Nov 9 2004, 07:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Green Jets & Ham &#064; Nov 9 2004, 07:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by Darkstar Rising@Nov 9 2004, 07:02 PM
    [b] [quote]Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham@Nov 9 2004, 06:57 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin-Darkstar Rising[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 06:53 PM
    [b] Green Jets & Ham,

    Why do you believe in the tenents of the Catholic Faith? Can you exlain why you believe? Can you verbalize the reasoning behind your faith? [/b][/quote]
    [i]For those who believe, no explanation is necessary

    For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible[/i]

    End of story [/b][/quote]
    And for those who have no explaination, a psudo-philosophical copout that says nothing must suffice.

    In other words, you couldn&#39;t come up with a single reason behind your beliefs. Hell, I would have accepted "Because my parents taught it to me" as a legit answer, but you couldn&#39;t even come up with that. [/b][/quote]
    No, I was actually being honest with you, and if you weren&#39;t so determined to pick a fight over religion you would see that

    It is impossible to explain an article of faith to one who does not share your faith

    And it is entirely unnecessary to do so with one who does share your faith

    I&#39;m sorry if that answer does not suffice with you, but dems the facts

    So why not just respect our differences and move along? [/b][/quote]

    I do indeed respect our differences Ham. I asked what I asked to better understand YOUR point of view on the issues we discuss here, issues you are both outspoken on, and malicious (at times) in your criticism and opinions of others who do not share your position. I asked it so I could better understand you.

    The answer was not what I expected, but I do think I understand you better even so.

    By the way, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, and maintain that faith today, so I do indeed share your faith. The reason behind my questioning is nothing so simpleminded as "Religion bashing" Ham.

  11. #31
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Darkstar Rising[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 07:36 PM
    [b] I do indeed respect our differences Ham. I asked what I asked to better understand YOUR point of view on the issues we discuss here, issues you are both outspoken on, and malicious (at times) in your criticism and opinions of others who do not share your position. I asked it so I could better understand you.

    The answer was not what I expected, but I do think I understand you better even so.

    By the way, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, and maintain that faith today, so I do indeed share your faith. The reason behind my questioning is nothing so simpleminded as "Religion bashing" Ham. [/b][/quote]
    Dark, you have me all wrong ... it may shock you to learn that I actually LIKE YOU

    No kidding ... I sincerely like you and I find you both intelligent and engaging

    You are probably my favorite debating partner on this board for that reason ... precisely because I admire your intelligence ... it presents a real challenge and I love a good challenge ... but make no mistake about it, when the debating is over {and if we were face to face}, I would love to buy you a drink and toast our exchange of ideas

    Anyhow, I just wanted to make that crystal clear off the bat, cause sometimes my combative demeanor can mask that fact

    Now here&#39;s why I am often reluctant to discuss my religious beliefs in detail .....

    It&#39;s been my experience that there are two types of religious discussions one can have .....

    1. On a philosophical level where both men are genuinely interested in the topic, even if they come from different religious perspectives ... and even sharing our disagreements or different viewpoints on a spiritual plane

    2. On a level of ridicule where one side is simply interested in mocking people of faith {i.e. the Bill Mahr approach} ... thus asking one to share his beliefs only as a means of providing fodder for his attacks

    I am always interested in engaging in the former, but I avoid the latter like the plague

    I will confess that I sensed some of the latter as your motive, you just seemed too eager to dismiss anything Biblical in our prior discussion, but perhaps I misjudged your intentions

    So to answer your question, why do I believe the the tenants of the Christian faith?

    I just accept the entire premise ... from the creation of man, to the fall of man, to mans need for redemption ... and I accept that Jesus was the chosen vehicle for redemption

    Both spiritually and logically it all makes sense too me

    I cannot prove a word of it, but it all makes sense too me

    So while I accept the premise on an intellectual level, there is no doubt an article of faith involved for which there is no logical explanation

    In short, I accept Christianity with both my heart and my head ... but even moreso in my heart

    As for being a Catholic, that is the church I was borne into but on the essential questions of the faith I see no great division between denominations ... I see all Christians of all denominations as being equal parts of the faith, with no great divide on the basic essentials

    Small differences, no doubt ... but none on the questions of redemption and salvation through Christ

    Obviously my faith goes much deeper than that, but that is the short version

  12. #32
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jet Moses+Nov 9 2004, 10:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Jet Moses @ Nov 9 2004, 10:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-isired[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 08:58 AM
    [b] quick question:

    how many of you who consider yourselves christians consider the virgin birth absolute 100% fact?

    [/b][/quote]
    Faith is a belief or trust that needs no proof. According to my religious faith, I have to take this story at face value. Intellectually however, I will always experience skepticism. Throughout history, all cultural mythology passes a story down from generation to generation, and with each passing, the story gets embellished, and the hero becomeís more superhuman- virgin birth, walks on water, never dies, etc.

    If I want to argue a point, and Iím lacking factual data, then I must turn to the age old question:
    What came first; the chicken or the egg? For a man to be born, he must have a father to inseminate his mother. But what about the first man? Where did his father and mother come from? And who created them? It stands to reason that a supreme being, a ďGodĒ if you will, created the first man and the first woman. From that point on, man has reproduced on itís own.

    But if God could do this trick once, I guess I can buy into the idea that he (or she, or it) could do it twice.

    Hence Jesus.

    Just one way of looking at it, I could be wrong. [/b][/quote]
    i guess that&#39;s pretty much what i figured; i almost think it makes your faith stronger, in some ways, to bring an element of acknowledgement into it. i was really turned off to religion at a young age by those that were enlisted to &#39;teach&#39; me (CCD class at my parent&#39;s church, taught by adults in the church comunity and/or preists), mostly by the fact that there was a blind acceptance of all of this as 100% absolute fact, and anyone with questions were basically scorned. most chose to fall in line, i&#39;ve never been that way, so i had a pretty hard time getting through (several of my years there were cut short, but i was &#39;promoted&#39; anyway).

    i really was just looking for a thoughtful debate, i think if ham and darkstar, or their ilk, were up there doing what they do, i would have had a better respect for the whole notion. as it was, i just ended up thinking &#39;these people aren&#39;t very smart&#39;, which i now know, of course, wasn&#39;t necessarily so.

    BTW, in retrospect, my q. was probably worded poorly, "fact" is probably the wrong word, i think "truth" would have been a better way to pose it.

  13. #33
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham+Nov 9 2004, 05:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Green Jets & Ham @ Nov 9 2004, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-isired[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 08:58 AM
    [b] quick question:

    how many of you who consider yourselves christians consider the virgin birth absolute 100% fact?

    i&#39;m not trying to insult (i&#39;m from a long line of irish and italian catholics), i&#39;m curious.

    i confess that ham&#39;s statement surprised me, i always figured most christians of my generation believed more in the idea of the christian god, and not in the item-by-item characterization of god etc. as described in the bible. [/b][/quote]
    isired ... I too am a Catholic, and [b]the virgin birth[/b] is a basic tenant of Catholisim/Christianity

    Christian means believer is Christ ... the Christ is the Son of GOD

    How can he be what he claimed to be ... the Son of GOD ... if he was not conceived by GOD?

    I do not see see how one can deny the Virgin Birth ... deny that Christ was borne from the seed of the Almighty ... instead believe he was the seed of Joseph {or even a bastard} ... yet still call him the Son of GOD?

    As a Catholic I learned from the outset that the virgin birth is a basic tenant of Christianity ... an absolute esstential ... and I since I believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be {The Christ and the Son of the living GOD}, I believe with all of my heart in the Virgin Birth

    In short, my entire faith revolves around the Virgin Birth ... if it were not so, my entire faith would be built on a lie ... Jesus would not even be a good man or a prophet ... in effect he would have perpertrated the greatest hoax in the history of mankind ... he is either the Son of GOD {as he claimed to be}, or he is the greatest fraud in the history of the world

    Each man needs to decide for himself which of the two Jesus is, but I do not see how one can divorce the virgin birth from their belief in Jesus yet still call him "The Christ" {i.e. The Son of GOD}

    And to be clear for those who do not believe ... isired and myself are not discussing what others need to believe ... we are discussing an essential part of Catholic/Christian doctrine [/b][/quote]
    actually, though i see where jet moses is coming from (and it&#39;s more along the lines that i think most of my approximate age would feel, as opposed to my parents generation - i&#39;m 36), i think from the little i know about you that you couldn&#39;t have it any other way. i see you as a man of detail, and i seriously doubt you have the ability (or the inclination) to see it that way (again, i&#39;m not knocking you, don&#39;t misunderstand me).

    i think many kind of gloss over the basis, and focus on the big picture, the main point being: do you or don&#39;t you believe in god. it certainly makes it easier to be pro-choice, as many christians/catholics are, or to beileve sex other than for reproductive purposes or pre-marital sex is ok, etc. which, again, many do.

  14. #34
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    Honestly, I can take all the supernatural stuff with a grain of salt. Even so, the story of Jesus, and his impact on our world throughout time, is quite profound. I think man&#39;s way of communiction- through the spoken word and alphabets- is far too primitive to truly grasp and explain "God".

    But we&#39;re doing the best we can. ;)

  15. #35
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Green Jets & Ham[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 10:00 PM
    [b] Now here&#39;s why I am often reluctant to discuss my religious beliefs in detail .....

    It&#39;s been my experience that there are two types of religious discussions one can have .....

    1. On a philosophical level where both men are genuinely interested in the topic, even if they come from different religious perspectives ... and even sharing our disagreements or different viewpoints on a spiritual plane

    2. On a level of ridicule where one side is simply interested in mocking people of faith {i.e. the Bill Mahr approach} ... thus asking one to share his beliefs only as a means of providing fodder for his attacks

    [/b][/quote]
    I&#39;ve always said that religion and politics should never be discussed at the dinner table because nothing good ever comes of it... only a family not talking to each other.
    BUT...
    this is a political forum and not the dinner table. lol And while religion is not necessarily politics (or shouldn&#39;t be, anyway) it DOES effect how we arrive at some of our political views. So I say... bring it on.

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