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Thread: Affirmative Action

  1. #1
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    How can we let Affirmative Action exist in our society today? I could go on for days about why it is a detriment of our society as a whole but I want to hear what other people think before I get into specifics. I also want to know how it can be applied to football, and what problems it presents in the present day sports era. I am a HUGE jets fan, but also a closet Britney Spears fan. What can I say, GO FISH!

    -Rice

  2. #2
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    I believe in the [color=red]Individual[/color] and not in the [color=red]Group[/color]

    The true socialist tends to love society in the abstract, but he has contempt for the individual, even disdain

    This is why the socialist will always favor GROUP RIGHTS over INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS

    Now let me explain .....

    That haughty superiority complex which is often apparant in the socialist emminates from his love for society in the abstract ... this is why he needs some form of struggle for Group Rights to sustain him ... this is why he must always have a greater cause for society worth fighting for ... without that his entire existance would seem meaningless and empty, and worst of all, he would be no better than his fellow man whom he despises

    I have always maintained that socialism is really a secular religion ... one that seeks to replace the old paradigm of a failed GOD {in their mind} with a new vision where like minded elites usher in utopia on earth {i.e. heaven}

    And thus this is where their hatred of the individual is borne ... cause it is only people, and often {while not solely} those who cling to the old paradigm of GOD who stand in the way of their utopian vision ... if not for actual people {i.e. individuals}, the true socialist believes utopia on some level can be achieved

    Example ... when the utopian concieves of Quotas {for certain Groups} to right some of societies ills, it is often the story of an individual who has been harmed by this program who will call it into question

    [i]Joe Blow from Kansas, with impeccable grades, was denied admission into a certain college today cause that spot was needed to fill a Quota with a less qualified student[/i]

    [i]John Doe from Ohio, with an impeccable resume, was refused a job today cause a less qulified candidate was needed to fill a Quota[/i]

    etc. etc. etc.

    When these individuals come forward with their grievances it exposes a flaw in the methodology as a whole ... it shows where the actual individual {and achievement} is ultimately punished, or at least not rewarded ... and to the average non-elite {who is not the benificiary} there is something inherently wrong with that idea

    All people of good will believe that EVERY MAN should be given an equal opportunity to pursue his or her dreams ... that is not the issue ... but it is the utopian vision of the socialist which believes an equal opportunity is not enough ... we must achieve a perfect balance in society, by any means necessary, and if that means unfairly damaging certain individuals along the way, so be it

    And thus, the individual who comes forward to protest on the basis of being wronged by this policy is selfish in the eyes of the utopian ... he has placed himself above their lofty goals ... he is not merely misinformed or misguided, but selfesh to the core ... thus that individual is to be viewed with disdain

    In the eyes of the socialist such individuals are selfish at best, and far more sinister at worst {racist, mysoginist, etc.}

    Thus the perpetual cycle of victimhood ... some Group is always being put upon by the average INDIVIDUAL

    [i]If only we could re-educate these baboons[/i], says the utopian

    ENTER SENSITIVITY TRAINING

    Yes, if only we can re-educate these baboons ... only then can we usher in utopia ... and if they are beyond re-education despite our most ardent efforts, then perhaps we must consider THE FINAL SOLUTION :ph34r:

    In the end, perhaps the only way we can usher in uptopia is to simply usher out mankind ... or at least all of those who stand in the way of progress

    If they cannot be re-programed, then indeed SOCIETY would be much better off without these vile INDIVIDUALS

    You think this is a fantasy I describe? <_<

    Then you have NO UNDERSTANDING {none whatsoever} of Marxism in the 20th Century

    Anyone who has studied Marxism, AS ACTUALLY APPLIED in the 20th Century, is all to familiar with the thesis I hypothisized in this post

    But let&#39;s not forget facsism, from wence Nazism was borne ... that too was a utopian vision for mankind, hatched in the minds of tyrants ... that too was going to create a better SOCIETY for those who were deserving of it ... only their inheritors of utopia differed

    That&#39;s the funny thing about utopia ... it is never for everyone ... those who oppose the idea must be re-educated or eliminated for it to succeed ... thus the rightful heirs can inherit utopia in the end

    Beware of those who come offering utopian solutions for a flawed society ... more individuals in the 20th Century were slaughtered in the name of this incidious ideology than the human mind can begin to comprehend ... millions upon millions of individuals have been sacrified on the alter of utopia in the 20th Century alone ... and we&#39;re talkin tens and tens of millions

    When utopia is the mission, it trumps all else ... nothing is as valuable as the goal itself ... thus individuals are left with only two choices in the end ... comply or say goodbye

    Having said all that, while I am vehemently opposed to Quotas in any form, I support affirmitive action in it&#39;s stated intent {which is never what the utopian actually has in mind} ... to take the less advantaged amongst us and give them a helping hand is a lofty pursuit ... to devote time and effort to helping them succeed ... this we should do as INDIVIDUALS, not as the state ... we should do so cause it&#39;s the Godly thing to do and cause it displays a love for our fellow man ... but in the end the individual must always stand on their own merits

    No man should be given favor over another by the state ... from those elites who espouse such a philosophy, DON&#39;T WALK ... RUN

    Beware of the utopian bearing gifts

    The Greatest tyrants of the 20th Century had the same lofty goals in mind for their societies {in the abstract} ... it was only the individual who stood in their way ... but they always found a way to deal with the obstinent individual in the end

    One way or another the individual would cease to be an impediment to progress ... to the curing of societies ills ... and to the ushering in of uptopia

    That&#39;s the funny thing about uptopia ... it often invloves some form of brain-washing followed by compliance, or ends with a mountain of dead bodies ... whichever the obstinent individuals choose

    And here&#39;s the irony ... it is for this very reason that the utopian feels like a superior being and a higher form of human life ... in his mind he is not a tyrant at all, but one who loves society {in the abstract} more than the average man ... thus he will go to any lengths to build a better world ... that alone makes him better than you and me

    Oh sure, often times his cruelty may know no bounds ... but it is in the pursuit of a GREATER GOOD

  3. #3
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    when it comes to people getting into college at least we can&#39;t get rid of Affirmative Action without getting rid of Legacy Admissions -

  4. #4
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Dec 12 2004, 09:35 AM
    [b] when it comes to people getting into college at least we can&#39;t get rid of Affirmative Action without getting rid of Legacy Admissions - [/b][/quote]
    I could not agree more ... legacy admissions is also a product of the elites ... it is a disgrace ... this policy should be ended immediately, fore IT TOO favors something other than the individual and his own achievements

    It is a thoroughly disgusting, elitest policy and it STINKS ... the stench could not be more awful ... anyone who opposes Quotas yet supports legacy admissions is practicing rank hyprocrisy at it&#39;s worst

    IMO that person can fairly be suspected of racism or some other sinister motive, by virtue of his own rank hypocrisy

  5. #5
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    the way i see it neither policy is good but until Legacy goes away (probably never because this is how the colleges make money) there will always be the need for some sort of balancing policy to even it out - two wrongs don&#39;t ever make a right but in this case it&#39;s a good compromise IMO.

  6. #6
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    Inequality and Descrimination based on race (or gender, or religion, or ethnicity or a number of toher things) is wrong, for ANY reason.

  7. #7
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    I happen to disagree with all of you. I think that legacy admissions and affirmative action admissions are two totally separate matters. For instance, in Princeton University, when looking at the legacy admissions you will notice that 10% of legacy applicants were admitted last year. That is virtually identical to that of regular applicants. In addition, if you begin too look at the grades that these legacy applicants receive, they are held to a HIGHER standard for both the SAT scores and general GPA than average applicants. Obviously legacy admission preference is a fallicy. Affirmative Action, however, is wrong and should be abolished immediately in all public colleges and universities.

  8. #8
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    Just some more food for thought...

    Affirmative Action as it is now is said to "compensate for disadvantaged students of minority backgrounds." Now tell me, why are certain minority groups excluded from this system if it is intended to help out minorities as a whole? Example: The Jewish population in this country represents a little over 2% of the citizens of the US. And less than .2% in the world... NOW THAT IS A MINORITY. And no one can deny that the Jewish people as a whole have suffered as much or more than any other group in our world&#39;s history. Yet they are wholeheartedly excluded. Why? Because they made it on their own. Same as Asians and Indians. We need to start examining the root causes of why certain groups succeed while others do not and then we can begin to assess how to fix affirmative action.

    You cannot simply say that because someone is of a certain background that they automatically need help. By doing that you are insulting the entire African American and Hispanic communities. Socio-economic Aff Action is necessary

  9. #9
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    assuming the stat where only 10% of Princeton legacys get in is accurate - all that proves is that thousands of people are trying to wish their way into Princeton every year - one of the best schools in the world...

    when i interviewed for Harvard the guy who interviewed me led off the session with the factoid that his daughter got rejected... (as did I later on)

    also since we are re-living the college selection process, I remember getting rejected from Williams, but they took the black kid from Harlem who had 200 points lower score then me... and still i favor the policy of Aff Action&#33;&#33;&#33;

    there are still tens of thousands of schools around the country that reward being someone&#39;s kid more than good grades... it&#39;s called the lucky sperm club and you are either in it or you ain&#39;t...

    and let&#39;s not forget the jews and asians who came here did so with backing usually but at the very least they did so by choice

    with few exceptions, no one offered the black man a choice to come to America... and that&#39;s the difference. Jews and Asians never had to run away from lynch mobs... 400 years of oppression doesn&#39;t get erased by 40 years of Affirmative Action...

  10. #10
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    But you are missing the point my friend. Just as Clarence Thomas says, it is an insult to all blacks and hispanics to have this affirmative action in place. It is saying in effect that all blacks and hispanics are stupid and require help because they cant possibly survive on their own. You are going to tell me that there isnt one disadvantaged white kid out there? or some rich black?

  11. #11
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    fine... the second that schools eliminate Legacy admissions then Aff Action can go as well -

    as long as there are undeserving candidates getting into schools based more on who they are born from and what their parents can donate then the policy of Aff Action is needed to counter balance -

  12. #12
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    Bit mirrors my stance on this to a tee...

    The one thing that I want to point out is that, Princeton is the special case. Princeton is the one school in this country that doesn&#39;t issue any form of school initiated aid (Even with it&#39;s large endowment and alumni contributions)...

    This basically means, if you to Princeton....You belong there&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

    The fact of the matter is, AA has a diminimous affect on acceptance/rejection rates (Just as small as legacy students). The large percentage of afro-american students who attend premier universities have the stats to back it up. The AA myth is only insulting to the misinformed...........

    If you want to see something funny, look at the student profile at Cal Berkley since they changed the standards. Less Blacks, Less Whites, More Asians......That says more about the state of "Public Schooling" than anything else.

  13. #13
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    Terry -

    Do you think affirmative action is racist?

  14. #14
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    Yes absolutely. Affirmative Action is reverse discrimination in every sense. And Im not saying this because it doesn&#39;t help me... Im saying this from a comepletely objective point of view. I would completely support an afifirmative action program that is socio-economically based. But that isnt what we have today. it is blatantly wrong to assume that all blacks and hispanics are disadvantaged and need extra help, while we completely ignore the white trash of this country, who clearly need just as much help. THIS IS WRONG

  15. #15
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    i agree with the point that it should be based on class not purely race - but saying the system needs to be changed and saying the system needs to go are two different statements

  16. #16
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    I actually put Thomas Sowell&#39;s book on AA on my christmas list. Thanks agian 5 for turning me on to him.

  17. #17
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    [quote][b]Terry -

    Do you think affirmative action is racist? [/b][/quote]

    Depends on your Definition of Racist bro.......In some cases, I think AA in it&#39;s current form is absolutely racist. In other cases, absolutely no (I&#39;ll get into this later...don&#39;t have the time right now.)

    [quote][b]Im saying this from a comepletely objective point of view. I would completely support an afifirmative action program that is socio-economically based.[/b][/quote]

    This was the case at the University of Michigan B-School/Med School a few years back, but a certain "legacy" felt the need to shoot the system down.

  18. #18
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Dec 13 2004, 05:07 PM
    [b] i agree with the point that it should be based on class not purely race - but saying the system needs to be changed and saying the system needs to go are two different statements [/b][/quote]
    wow...can&#39;t believe I agree with bitonti...that as it may, the way affirmative action stands now it really is nothing more than government sactioned discrimination.

    And while I feel it was necessary from the get-go I think in present day it causes more resentment than opportunity. (I&#39;d rather see cases of actual discrimination prosecuted to it&#39;s fullest and punish the bastards that discriminate).

  19. #19
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Dec 12 2004, 06:58 PM
    [b] assuming the stat where only 10% of Princeton legacys get in is accurate - all that proves is that thousands of people are trying to wish their way into Princeton every year - one of the best schools in the world...

    when i interviewed for Harvard the guy who interviewed me led off the session with the factoid that his daughter got rejected... (as did I later on)

    also since we are re-living the college selection process, I remember getting rejected from Williams, but they took the black kid from Harlem who had 200 points lower score then me... and still i favor the policy of Aff Action&#33;&#33;&#33;

    there are still tens of thousands of schools around the country that reward being someone&#39;s kid more than good grades... it&#39;s called the lucky sperm club and you are either in it or you ain&#39;t...

    and let&#39;s not forget the jews and asians who came here did so with backing usually but at the very least they did so by choice

    with few exceptions, no one offered the black man a choice to come to America... and that&#39;s the difference. Jews and Asians never had to run away from lynch mobs... 400 years of oppression doesn&#39;t get erased by 40 years of Affirmative Action... [/b][/quote]
    . Jews and Asians never had to run away from lynch mobs...

    Incorrect, again, look up the word POGROM. A very notorious US lynching was the 1915 murder of factory manager Leo Frank, an American Jew. Also, there
    have been about 200 documeted lynchings of Chinese and Asians, and 50+ Italians. So it would probably be safe to say that everyone&#39;s ethnicity been a target
    of hate at one time or another

  20. #20
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Lawyers, Guns and Money[/i]@Dec 13 2004, 05:33 PM
    [b] I actually put Thomas Sowell&#39;s book on AA on my christmas list. Thanks agian 5 for turning me on to him. [/b][/quote]
    No problem. You should also get Ethnic America, by Sowell. He traces the migration to America of nine different ethnic groups...it&#39;s fascinating.

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