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Thread: Jet Crash into Pentagon

  1. #1
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    May take awhile to load but worth a look:

    [url=http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main]http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main[/url]

  2. #2
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    Not this sh!t again...let me ask you something genius...what then happened to the passengers and crew that were on that flight? Lemme guess; they're hanging out with hitler and Jim Morrison somewhre in Africa!

  3. #3
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    I have seen that before and it makes me wonder.... Something about 9/11 that bothers me that is never brought up is a secret meeting I kept hearing about in right after the attacks that supposedly took place in Vienna between Mohammed Attah(the ringleader of 9/11) And some Iraqi officials in the Summer of 2001, and I just remember thinking how odd it was that our Government knew that right away, yet they couldnt give any more information on it, now I think back to that meeting as a Fox New/ Government fabricated story to get the American people to think that Iraq was somehow involved in 9/11, because the Bush adminstration knew damn well they were going to eventually go into Iraq.....


    And that video is deinetly scary, I mean how is it possible that there is NO Available video of the plane going into the Pentagon!! Are you kidding? The Pentagon is one of the most secure buildings in the United States, and you are telling me they couldnt release any vidoes?? And how come there are almost no testimonials of the plane going into the building? I mean come on, the ****ing plane is going over Washington DC one of the most populated areas in the country and it went over rush hour traffic, and this was even after people knew about the twin tower attacks, so people must have already been on there toes, and you are telling me only a handful of people claim to have seen this plane go into the building? And do you think it is a coincidence this "Plane" went into the area of the Pentagon that was unoccupied and under renovation?

  4. #4
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    i've seen that before as well and the basic premise is valid - how in the heck did a 55 ton airplane dissapear without any wreckage and leaving just a narrow punchout hole through the rings of the Pentagon?

    it was indeed very odd...

  5. #5
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    Come on people---Where did 64 people go? Are the quotes all the eyewitness quotes or only those claiming to see or hear something like a missle. Consider the following...


    Pentagon 9/11: Getting the Facts Straight

    The New American | August 23 2004 Issue

    A growing number of people have been led to believe that an airliner did not hit the Pentagon on 9/11. However, in this case the "official version" of events is irrefutable.

    Father Stephen McGraw had taken a wrong turn on his way to Arlington National Cemetery the morning of September 11, 2001. After taking the Pentagon exit onto Washington Boulevard, Fr. McGraw found himself mired in traffic, stewing impatiently over being late for a planned graveside service. Suddenly the priest heard a deafening roar as a large aircraft passed directly over the roof of his car. "It looked like a plane coming in for a landing … I mean, in the sense that it was controlled and sort of straight," recalled Fr. McGraw.

    The priest "looked out just as the plane clipped an overhead sign and then toppled a light pole, injuring a taxi driver a few feet away," recounts investigative author James Bamford in his new book A Pretext for War. "A second later, American Flight 77 smashed into the gray concrete wall of the Pentagon. The jet hit with such force that it penetrated four of the five concentric rings of corridors and offices surrounding a gazebo in the center court, long nicknamed Ground Zero."

    "I saw it crash into the building," testifies the priest. "There was an explosion and a loud noise, and I felt the impact. I remember seeing a fireball come out of two windows.... I saw an explosion of fire billowing through those two windows. I remember hearing a gasp or scream from one of the other cars near me. Almost a collective gasp, it seemed."

    That "collective gasp" was wrenched from the throats of numerous witnesses who — like Father McGraw — saw the crash with their own eyes, heard the explosions with their own ears, and felt the percussive aftershock with their own bodies.

    "Did you see that?" exclaimed Aydan Kizildrgli, a student from Turkey who had also been snarled in traffic. Notes Bamford: "Traffic along the highway came immediately to a halt as people jumped out of their cars and began putting their cell phones to their ears. Stunned and dazed, Kizildrgli left his car on the road and began walking aimlessly for half an hour."

    Also among the eyewitnesses were Dan Creed and two colleagues from Oracle Software, who, seated in a car near the Naval Annex, watched in horrified wonder as the hijacked plane dived, leveled off and struck the Pentagon next door. Telling his story to the Phoenix, Arizona, Ahwatukee Foothills News, Creed recalled the dreadful events. "It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," said Creed.

    Moments later, the plane struck the Pentagon, killing all 64 of its passengers and crew. The crash took the lives of another 125 people on the ground. "I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It’s just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up," Creed recalled.

    Frank Probst, an employee of the Pentagon Renovation Program Office, was outside the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001. In an interview with the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE), Probst gave his own eyewitness account. He had been watching live television coverage of the second plane hitting the World Trade Center tower in one of the construction site trailers.

    Around 9:30 a.m., Probst left the trailer and (as paraphrased in an ASCE report) "began walking to the Modular Office Compound … located beyond the extreme north end of the Pentagon" for a 10 o’clock meeting. Approaching the heliport, he looked over and saw "a plane flying low over the Annex and heading right for him." Understandably, Probst "hit the ground and observed the right wing tip pass through the portable 750 kW generator" that provided backup power to a portion of the Pentagon. He saw the right engine take out "the chain-link fence and posts surrounding the generator." The left engine, he said, "struck an external steam vault before the fuselage entered the building."

    Probst described to the ASCE how, "as the fireball from the crash moved toward him," he ran toward the South Parking Lot. He said that he fell down twice, and while running, "fine pieces of wing debris floated down about him." He only saw "fire and smoke within the building at the point of impact."

    The ASCE also interviewed Don Mason, another employee of the Pentagon Renovation Program Office. At the time of the crash, Mason was "stopped in traffic west of the building," according to the ASCE account of his story. "The plane approached low," flying "directly" over him, "possibly clipping the antenna of the vehicle immediately behind him." It also "struck three light poles between him and the building."

    Mason, the ASCE recounted, said that he saw his colleague Probst "directly in the plane’s path, and he witnessed a small explosion as the portable generator was struck by the right wing." He also recalled "seeing the tail of the plane" as it entered the building, followed by a "fireball that erupted" upon the plane’s impact.

    Pentagate?

    With eyewitness testimony like this, it’s hard to see how anyone could believe that American Airlines Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon. Shockingly, though, that’s just what a growing number of people have been led to believe. A number of Web sites claim that the twin-engine Boeing 757 did not crash into the Pentagon. Their theories range from truck bombs and pre-set on-site explosive charges to remotely controlled aircraft and missile attacks.

    It is not just the events of 9/11 at the Pentagon, however, that have people scratching their heads. Americans are inundated each day with a veritable torrent of information, both true and false. There has been a marked proliferation of 24-hour news channels, a renaissance in talk radio, and a deluge of information on the Internet. Moreover, there has been an explosion in consumer goods and an accompanying explosion in advertising related to those goods and services. We are bombarded with claims and counterclaims. Oftentimes it is exceedingly difficult to separate the hype from the truth.

    The problem applies to alternative news media as well as mainstream media. The former are wont to publish all manner of conjecture and theory, often based on only the slimmest, often misconstrued, bits of "evidence." For instance, it is true that our nation and our liberties are threatened by a cabal of establishment Insiders bent on creating a socialist world government (see the article on page 20). Many alternative media outlets, however, persist in perpetuating "conspiracy theories" that are untrue and misleading. This is particularly true of the assertion that Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon.

    Americans mindful of the dangers threatening the founding ideals of this nation need be especially cautious in such matters. The hazards can be illustrated by applying Gresham’s Law. In economics, this law teaches that bad money drives out good. In the information society, bad information drives out good information. The proliferation of misinformation causes the dilution of good, factual information. Valuable information on actual cover-ups, for instance, is discredited when other alleged, but non-factual and misleading, conspiracy theories are given undue currency. In short, bad conspiracy theories discredit all assertions of conspiracy, making for fertile ground in which actual conspiracies thrive.

    The assertion that American Airlines Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon achieved notoriety following the publication in France of l’Effroyable Imposture by French journalist Thierry Meyssan. The book, published in the U.S. as 9/11: The Big Lie, was an immediate sensation in France, becoming, as Time Europe noted, that nation’s number one best-seller. The book has since catalyzed an explosion of Web sites and alternative publications making similar claims. For his part, Meyssan claims that the official explanation of the Pentagon’s damage — that the hijacked airliner crashed into the building — is "a loony tale constructed in bits and pieces, one lie leading to another."

    Instead of providing an alternative explanation, however, he simply demanded that the U.S. come clean. "The official version is only propaganda," he wrote. "But the facts remain that 125 persons died at the Pentagon and that an airplane carrying 64 passengers disappeared. What became of American Airlines flight 77? Are the passengers dead? If so, who killed them and why? If not, where are they? The U.S. administration should address all these questions."

    Such questions, of course, ignore publicly available evidence, including the fact that some passenger remains were found. Diagrams presented by the American Society of Civil Engineers, in its report entitled The Pentagon Building Performance Report, show the relative positions of passenger remains found within the damaged structure of the Pentagon.

    By applying certain principles, it is possible to evaluate the validity of a given news report, press release, advertisement, conspiracy theory, or other claim. In fact, the 9/11 crash at the Pentagon provides a sort of laboratory with which to demonstrate these principles of critical thinking.

    Evaluating Meyssan’s Work

    In essence, Meyssan states that there is no evidence for the official version of events, then assumes on that basis that the official version must be false. Historian David Hackett Fischer categorizes such reasoning as "the fallacy of the negative proof," wherein a person argues that "‘there is no evidence that X is the case,’ and then proceeds to affirm or assume that not-X is the case." In such instances all that is proven, Fischer notes, is that there "is no evidence of X."

    Unfortunately for Meyssan, there is plenty of evidence regarding what happened at the Pentagon on 9/11. The U.S. government did, in fact, answer Meyssan’s questions in the form of the "official version" of events. By asking such questions in l’Effroyable Imposture, published in the U.S. as 9/11: The Big Lie, Meyssan makes a ham-handed, almost absurd, attempt to lead readers to conclude that no explanation for that day’s events had yet been offered.

    Having come under fire for 9/11: The Big Lie, Meyssan and his organization released a subsequent book, Pentagate, that more fully develops his critique of the attack on the Pentagon. The analysis provided in Pentagate makes attempts on multiple fronts to convince readers that the conventional explanation of the damage at the Pentagon is faulty. According to the book:

    • Witness testimony indicates that a missile was responsible for the damage. "In all cases," the book concludes, "these testimonies concerning the sound and the trajectory also correspond perfectly with the manner in which a missile flies in the final phase of flight, just before it strikes its target."

    • There is no debris from the plane, and the wings, which should have sheared off, are nowhere to be seen.

    • The damage at the Pentagon could have been caused by a missile but not by a plane. "The building was not smashed into as if it had suffered from a classic plane crash," Meyssan writes in Pentagate, "but was perforated as if struck by a missile."

    • Civilian sources did not know where Flight 77 was after 9:09 a.m. on 9/11. Consequently, civilian flight control, the FAA, "could not have known that the plane turned back [toward Washington, D.C.] since it had become, by the agency’s own admission, invisible to its eyes...."

    • The U.S. military did not destroy the plane, despite having the capability to do so.

    By attempting to develop these five points in greater detail, Meyssan attempts to lead readers to the conclusion that a missile, fired by the U.S. armed forces, hit the Pentagon.

    Consistent Witness Testimony

    A very basic means of judging the validity of any story is the ability to identify multiple named witnesses who each attest, in consistent fashion, to the various "facts" at issue. How does Meyssan measure up to this requirement? The answer: not very well.

    In fact, though he asserts that the Pentagon was hit by a missile and not an airplane, he does not cite even a single witness claiming to have seen a missile. His only "evidence" for the missile theory are descriptive similes used by witnesses who attested to seeing a plane but who compared the plane to a missile. For instance, he quotes USA Today reporter Joel Sucherman, who saw the plane as it raced toward its target. According to Sucherman, "whoever was flying the plane made no attempt to change direction. It was coming in at a high rate of speed, but not at a steep angle — almost like a heat-seeking missile was locked on its target and staying dead on course."

    Meyssan also quotes another USA Today reporter, Mike Walter, who saw the plane crash into the Pentagon. As to the plane’s behavior, Walter recalled that he saw "a plane, a plane from American Airlines. I thought: ‘That’s not right, it’s really low.’ And I saw it. I mean, it was like a cruise missile with wings." Based on these and other witnesses who described the plane’s behavior by using missile similes, Meyssan concludes, "In all cases, these testimonies concerning the sound and the trajectory also correspond perfectly with the manner in which a missile flies in the final phase of flight, just before it strikes its target."

    If the witnesses are not saying that they saw a missile, what are they saying? Sucherman, in stating that the plane seemed "like a heat-seeking missile" that "was locked on its target" was not saying that it was a heat-seeking missile, but was simply describing in an emphatic manner the fact that the plane did not deviate from its course. The same applies to Mike Walter’s statement that he saw "a plane, a plane from American Airlines," which "was like a cruise missile with wings." To anyone with even a basic grasp of the English language, Sucherman and Walter are speaking metaphorically. Either Meyssan does not understand the use of metaphor in English, or he is being disingenuous.

    The Scene of the Crime

    The most intriguing points of the theory proposed by Meyssan and others that the Pentagon was not struck by a jetliner are to be found at the scene of the crime. According to Meyssan, the damage to the building was not extensive enough to have been caused by a giant airliner moving at speeds of more than 350 mph (more than 500 mph according to the "official version"), and there are no discernable pieces of the aircraft remaining, as should have been the case if the Pentagon was hit by a plane. Both claims are based on misinterpretations and factual errors.

    As to the extent of damage at the Pentagon, in 9/11: The Big Lie, Meyssan provides an aerial photo showing the collapsed section of the outer ring of the Pentagon with an outline of a jetliner superimposed on the image. Referring to this graphic, he writes: "If one superimposes the plane’s outline onto the satellite photo … it can be seen that only the nose of the Boeing entered the building. The fuselage and the wings remained outside." He goes on in this vein, stating: "The plane was stopped dead, without its wings having struck the façade. There is no visible trace of any impact except that from the Boeing’s nose. We should thus be able to see the wings and the fuselage outside, on the lawn in fact."

    In his subsequent book, Pentagate, he argues that the scale of the damage to the façade of the building was too small to have been caused by the Boeing airliner. This estimation is based largely on an analysis of a photo taken prior to the building’s collapse that shows the entry hole punched through the building. In the photo the entry hole is visible extending to the top of the second floor and ending just shy of two of the third floor windows. Only the top of the hole, corresponding roughly with the level of the second floor, is visible. The lower portion of the impact site is entirely obscured in the photo by a heavy jet of water being sprayed across the building’s façade by a fire truck.

    Meyssan alleges from this that the entry hole was too small to have been made by a Boeing 757. "The impact itself is nevertheless quite narrow," he writes. "It extends from ground level to the first floor of the building (about 25 feet high). [Note that what Americans refer to as the second floor, Europeans call the first floor.] Its width corresponds to that of two windows above (about 17 to 20 feet wide)." He concludes: "The aircraft that passed through this orifice thus measured less than 17 to 20 feet in diameter. That could correspond to the passenger cabin of a Boeing 757-200 which in fact measures 11.5 feet. But this plane also possesses wings that give a total breadth of 125 feet." The inference, of course, is that Flight 77 could not have caused the damage to the façade of the Pentagon.

    In fact, the photo presented as evidence by Meyssan in support of this analysis is misleading, because the ground floor of the building is obscured. Other photos were taken of the façade before the collapse that show much greater damage that does fit the profile of an aircraft. Damage below the two windows cited by Meyssan and extending through the floor above ground level clearly corresponds to the entry point of the fuselage, while to the left and right of this area damage caused by the wings is clearly visible.

    Though the Pentagon survived the impact remarkably well, the plane cut a vast swath of destruction throughout the affected portion of the structure. The building, it should be noted, is built of steel reinforced concrete and masonry throughout, supported by narrowly spaced, spirally reinforced concrete columns varying in thickness from 14 to 21 inches, with the larger columns, naturally, to be found in the first story.

    The load-bearing columns support a slab, beam, and girder system of flooring. While not a fortress, the construction of the Pentagon is substantial and massive. The building is constructed of 680,000 tons of sand and gravel that were used to make the steel-reinforced concrete. Each of the five sides of the building then contains more than 100,000 tons of structural building components. The Boeing aircraft, by comparison, weighed nearly 100 tons and, like any aircraft, was of much lighter aluminum and composite construction, as befitting a vehicle meant to fly.

    The American Society of Civil Engineers described the impact site and the damage in their comprehensive report on the crash. According to the report, "Most of the serious structural damage was within a swath that was approximately 75 to 80 ft wide and extended approximately 230 ft into the first floor of the building. This swath was oriented at approximately 35 to 40 degrees perpendicular to the exterior wall of the Pentagon. Within the swath of serious damage was a narrower, tapering area that contained most of the very severe structural damage. This tapering area approximated a triangle in plan and had a width of approximately 90 ft at the aircraft’s entry point and a length of approximately 230 ft along the trajectory of the aircraft through the building."

    No Evidence of a Missile

    Because Meyssan misleadingly downplays the damage to the building, he is able to argue that the damage was caused by a missile. But here again is another example of faulty logic. In a section of Pentagate written by Pierre-Henri Bunel, the author notes that the damage at the Pentagon "resembles the effects of anti-concrete hollow charges...." There is no witness testimony presented indicating that anyone saw a cruise missile.

    Though many people saw an American Airlines plane fly into the Pentagon, no one is quoted as having seen a military plane launch a missile and there is no indication that one was fired either from land or sea-based launch systems. The assertion that a missile damaged the Pentagon is based solely on the fact that the explosion and resulting damage at the Pentagon have some similarities with those caused by cruise missile warheads.

    In a sense, this argument takes the form of what historian David Hackett Fischer calls the "fallacy of the possible proof." This fallacy, Fischer notes, consists of attempting to demonstrate that a proposition is true or false solely "by establishing the possibility of its truth or falsity." For instance, it is possible for it to snow in North Dakota on June 1. It does not follow from this possibility that it did actually snow in North Dakota on June 1. Similarly, it is possible that a missile hit the Pentagon. Unfortunately, admitting the possibility of such is not the same as proving that it actually happened — particularly when eyewitnesses, including those cited by Meyssan, unambiguously reported seeing a plane.

    To take it to the next step and prove that such an event actually occurred, it would be necessary to cite evidence supporting the assertion. It has already been noted that witnesses unambiguously reported seeing a plane hit the Pentagon and not a missile. Likewise, there is no physical evidence that would both support the missile theory and undermine the official explanation that Flight 77 was responsible for the damage.

    Meyssan attempts to skirt this issue, but faulty logic again thwarts his analysis. He cites the statements of firefighters who stated, "The only way you could tell that an aircraft was inside was that we saw pieces of the nose gear." He then quotes Arlington County fire chief Ed Plaugher, who in a statement to the press on September 12, 2001 said, "We have what we believe is a puddle right there that the — what we believe to be the nose of the aircraft...."

    A few lines later, Meyssan makes the critical leap in logic. "In contrast to the fragile nose of a plane, the heads of certain missiles are extremely resistant. This debris that firemen said they saw and that they had trouble identifying as the nose of the plane could well have been the warhead of a missile." What is the fatal flaw in this statement? The warhead happens to be the portion of the weapon that contains the explosive charge. Had a missile detonated inside the Pentagon, there would not be a warhead remaining to be found by firefighters. Meyssan can’t have his cake and eat it too.

    Moreover, though Meyssan argues that there is no debris from the plane located near or inside the Pentagon, witnesses have attested to the existence of such debris, and some of that debris even appears in the photographic record. In addition to landing gear, engine components, and the plane’s "black boxes," chunks of aluminum and other plane debris were found inside the damaged section of the building.

    Occam’s Razor

    There are still other problems with Meyssan’s analysis. He notes correctly, for instance, that Flight 77 was lost to FAA controllers after the hijackers turned off the plane’s transponder. He insists, however, that because the controllers lost the flight, no evidence exists that the plane was turned toward Washington. This, too, is not true. In fact, the 9/11 Commission Report points out that, "According to the radar reconstruction, American 77 reemerged as a primary target on Indianapolis Center radar scopes at 9:05, east of its last known position. The target remained in Indianapolis Center’s airspace for another six minutes, then crossed into the western portion of Washington Center’s airspace at 9:10."

    In yet another example of the "fallacy of the possible proof," Meyssan alleges that because the U.S. military did not prevent Flight 77 from reaching the Pentagon, despite the fact that it is the most powerful and sophisticated military organization in the world, the U.S. armed forces must, therefore, have purposefully facilitated the attack. Strictly speaking, this absurd suggestion fits the basic description of a "possibility." Once again, however, the necessity of an event does not follow from its possibility.

    Overall, however, the Meyssan theory fails its most important test. A 14th century philosopher, William of Occam, formulated the principle ("Occam’s razor") that the best explanation of observed phenomena is the simplest. Of the two competing explanations for the events at the Pentagon and on Flight 77, one posits that the plane struck the building at a high rate of speed causing both the disintegration of the plane and the destruction on the ground. The other, Meyssan’s theory, argues that the plane did not hit the Pentagon but disappeared. Not only does the extant evidence run counter to this theory, but it does not account for some of the observed phenomena, does not explain what happened to the plane and its passengers, and is manifestly more complex.

    It is safe to say that the thesis advocated by Thierry Meyssan, that Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, is a tour de force of obfuscation and misinterpretation. Meyssan has nevertheless attracted a bevy of adherents who have based their own interpretations and theories on his. Just how prevalent this theory has become can be confirmed quickly with a Web search. Such a search turns up very little useful information but returns a veritable mountain of misinformation.

    This, in fact, underscores the problem. Modern society is awash in a rapidly expanding sea of information, and it has become increasingly more difficult to identify information that is reliable, factual and useful. Nevertheless, it is essential to identify reliable information sources and carefully evaluate their material. What is the background of the source? Does the source have a track record of reliability? Is the story verifiable? Are witnesses named, or are they anonymous? Does the story match known or observed phenomena, or does it run counter to these? Are there elements of the story that you know to be true — or know not to be true? Has the source consistently employed fallacious reasoning?

    Failure to carefully weigh the reliability of information sources by asking these and other questions exposes patriotic Americans to the possibility of being misled and marginalized, an outcome to be avoided if the tide toward collectivism is to be reversed.

  6. #6
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    The sad part of these claims is that 50 years from now people will speculate that the Twin Tower collapse never happened--and some $hit for brain American will take half the facts presented to him, accept them as all the facts, and post the same $hit being posted here.

    I expect this from a Frenchman--I find it very disturbing that [u]any[/u] American will even consider the possibility.

  7. #7
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    I still want to know how that plane got crashed in an empty field in Shanksville, PA by a rogue band of American patriots (the 'Let's Roll' crew). Just seems kind of convenient that the plane was crashed in an empty and was not, in fact, shot down.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by sect112row36[/i]@Jan 14 2005, 05:36 PM
    [b] The sad part of these claims is that 50 years from now people will speculate that the Twin Tower collapse never happened--and some $hit for brain American will take half the facts presented to him, accept them as all the facts, and post the same $hit being posted here.

    I expect this from a Frenchman--I find it very disturbing that [u]any[/u] American will even consider the possibility. [/b][/quote]
    Dude...I hate to tell you that many on the left have already forgotten. You are right, it is really sad.

    Then again what do you expect...when fools like hward dean are out their in public talking about these conspirocies they build momentum.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by sect112row36[/i]@Jan 14 2005, 04:36 PM
    [b] The sad part of these claims is that 50 years from now people will speculate that the Twin Tower collapse never happened--and some $hit for brain American will take half the facts presented to him, accept them as all the facts, and post the same $hit being posted here.

    I expect this from a Frenchman--I find it very disturbing that [u]any[/u] American will even consider the possibility. [/b][/quote]
    So you won't even consider accepting that some of the government's stories don't sound a bit fishy? I'm not saying I necessarily believe the conspiracies, but I am able to recognize that, as Bugs Bunny might say, "something's screwy, ain't it?" I don't understand how they couldn't find any evidence of an airplane at the Pentagon. I do not fully believe the official government story, and I don't fully believe the conspiracies.

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    [quote][b]I'm not saying I necessarily believe the conspiracies, but I am able to recognize that, as Bugs Bunny might say, "something's screwy, ain't it?".... I do not fully believe the official government story, and I don't fully believe the conspiracies.[/b][/quote]

    Does anyone else see the sheer pathetic nature of this statement? Then again when you bow to the god's of moore and dean this is what you get.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Come Back to NY[/i]@Jan 15 2005, 11:28 AM
    [b] [quote][b]I'm not saying I necessarily believe the conspiracies, but I am able to recognize that, as Bugs Bunny might say, "something's screwy, ain't it?".... I do not fully believe the official government story, and I don't fully believe the conspiracies.[/b][/quote]

    Does anyone else see the sheer pathetic nature of this statement? Then again when you bow to the god's of moore and dean this is what you get. [/b][/quote]
    I honestly could not give a damn what you think about statement. In fact it fills me with joy that you think it's dumb or whatnot, considering the fact that you are a complete moron. I guess since I don't willingly fall for whatever lies Bush tells, that makes me an idiot. :rolleyes:

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by sect112row36[/i]@Jan 14 2005, 04:36 PM
    [b] The sad part of these claims is that 50 years from now people will speculate that the Twin Tower collapse never happened--and some $hit for brain American will take half the facts presented to him, accept them as all the facts, and post the same $hit being posted here.

    I expect this from a Frenchman--I find it very disturbing that [u]any[/u] American will even consider the possibility. [/b][/quote]
    This is some bizarre stuff. Wasn't Barbara Olsen on the plane that hit the pentagon?

    She risked instant death to surreptiously call her husband and alert them to what was happening. She's dead now, not hiding in the witness protection program.

    Yes, and 60 years later some doubt that the Holocaust occurred. It's amazing how propaganda will sway weak minds.

    Want to see a real coverup by the (Clinton) govt?

    Check this out:

    [url=http://www.twa800.com/index.htm]http://www.twa800.com/index.htm[/url]

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    [quote][b]Information uncovered in early 1999 now shows that TWA Flight 800 could have been shot down by one or more shoulder-fired missiles. The FBI was briefed by military missile experts in the Fall of 1996 that Flight 800 was well within the range of a shoulder fired missile. The FBI conducted a covert dredging operation for stinger missile parts between November 1996 and April 1997. CDR. Donaldson brought this new evidence to the House Aviation Subcommittee in testimony on May 6, 1999. Unfortunately, the major media and the Congress are content to swallow the official line without question. [/b][/quote]

    agree 100%

    people assume that cause im not a fan of Bush that i loved Clinton - this was undoubtedly a cover-up of the highest order... too many people have seen too many things for that flight to have been blown up by a fuel tank wire.

    the question begs - why? could it be that the military industrial complex wants a reason to "go to war?"- why would clinton cover up that a terrorist blew up a plane? cause he didn't want the mess... swept it under the rug? Clinton's cover up was disgusting.

    everyone loves to bring up WWII but forget to mention this little tidbit:

    we as a nation don't DECLARE war we just get all amped up and GO TO IT.

    we haven't formally declared a war for 50 years... yet we've fought in how many conflicts? it's a constitutional loophole of which the entire gov't (BOTH PARTIES) are guilty... it's a damn shame that whoever wins the election runs the house like it's a dictatorship when it comes to foreign/energy policy.

    welcome to modern Democracy in action...

  14. #14
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    There were plenty of reputable people who were hanging out on Eastern Long Island
    that night who gave statements that they saw a flare, or ball of fire, or MISSILE streaking towards that plane before it was blown up. Their stories were buried.

    But when I first read the above link, my jaw dropped.

  15. #15
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    And that plane bound for Santa Domingo that crashed in Queens two months after 9-11...definitely a cover-up...landed right in the neighborhood of the Firefighter who told OBL to "kiss my ass" on stage at the Concert for New York&#33; <_<

  16. #16
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Come Back to NY[/i]@Jan 17 2005, 11:08 PM
    [b] And that plane bound for Santa Domingo that crashed in Queens two months after 9-11...definitely a cover-up...landed right in the neighborhood of the Firefighter who told OBL to "kiss my ass" on stage at the Concert for New York&#33; <_< [/b][/quote]
    I agree. I think the link to the firefighters comments is coincidental, but tails just dont fall off planes.

  17. #17
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Jan 14 2005, 05:13 PM
    [b] i&#39;ve seen that before as well and the basic premise is valid - how in the heck did a 55 ton airplane dissapear without any wreckage and leaving just a narrow punchout hole through the rings of the Pentagon?

    it was indeed very odd... [/b][/quote]
    [url=http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm]For the dumb masses...[/url]

    This took all of two seconds to find. I can&#39;t believe the ignorance of some people...

    [img]http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/010911-N-6157F-001.jpg[/img]

    That&#39;s not plane wreckage is it? No of course not. The CIA planted that there from a cessna. Duh [/sarcasm]

    ----------------

    While making few explicit allegations, the authors argue, in effect, that based on photographic and physical evidence, the damage sustained by the Pentagon on September 11, 2001 could not have been caused by a crashing jetliner, contrary to the official and overwhelmingly accepted explanation.

    The argument is weak. For starters, it conveniently ignores some of the most obvious, compelling evidence. For example:

    Eyewitness testimony of bystanders who saw and/or heard American Airlines Flight 77 approach and collide with the Pentagon

    The recovery of both black boxes belonging to the Boeing 757 from the Pentagon wreckage

    The recovery and identification of the remains of all but one of the people known to be aboard Flight 77
    Of course, evading bedrock evidence is standard procedure for conspiracy theorists. If pressed, they would doubtless claim that all of the above must have been planted or manufactured, but they can&#39;t even prove such a claim plausible, let alone true beyond a reasonable doubt.

    An improbably successful cover-up

    Make no mistake, the burden of proof is on the conspiracy theorists, whose case presupposes that all of the hundreds of people who participated in the clean-up, recovery and investigation following the 9/11 Pentagon attack — including scientists, engineers, coroners and professional air disaster investigators — are either dead wrong or participating in a massive, improbably successful government cover-up.

    Eschewing plain facts and common sense, the conspiracy theorists ask us to focus instead on misleadingly posed condundrums such as the following:

    Question: "Can you explain how a Boeing 757-200, weighing nearly 100 tons and travelling at a minimum speed of 250 miles an hour only damaged the outside of the Pentagon?"
    Answer: It didn&#39;t only damage the outside. According to the Washington Post, structural damage extended at least 150 feet inside, well into the third ("C") ring of the building.


    Question: "Can you explain how a Boeing 14.9 yards high, 51.7 yards long, with a wingspan of 41.6 yards and a cockpit 3.8 yards high, could crash into just the ground floor of this building?"
    Answer: It didn&#39;t just crash into the ground floor. According to official statements and news reports, it took out both the first and second floors on impact.


    Question: "Can you find debris of a Boeing 757-200 in this photograph?"
    Answer: No, but we can in this one credited to a U.S. Navy photographer [enlarged version]. Bear in mind, eyewitnesses say the Boeing 757 virtually disintegrated when it struck the reinforced wall of the building. Given that, and the tremendous forward momentum of the aircraft on impact, the assumption that a significant amount of debris ought to be visible in front of the Pentagon wouldn&#39;t seem justified.

    According to a CNN article published the day after the attack, Michael Tamillow, a battalion chief of the Fairfax County, Virginia Fire Department, reported that parts of the Boeing 757 fuselage had indeed been recovered from the wreckage by FBI investigators (the same team that later found the black boxes). "No large pieces apparently survived," the article said.

    One visitor who surveyed the crash site a few days later, Representative Judy Biggert of Illinois, told reporters she saw remnants of the jetliner: "There was a seat from a plane," she said, "there was part of the tail and then there was a part of green metal, I could not tell what it was, a part of the outside of the plane." (Chicago Sun-Times, 16 Sep, 2001)

    About Poll
    Do you believe AA Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon?
    Yes.
    No.
    I&#39;m not sure.


    Current Results

    Here&#39;s one obvious question the conspiracy theorists don&#39;t ask and certainly could not answer in any compelling way: If American Airlines Flight 77 didn&#39;t crash into the Pentagon, what did happen to the jetliner and all its passengers? Did it vanish into thin air?

    (For a more detailed consideration of these and other "Hunt the Boeing" puzzles, please read the excellent commentary by engineer Paul Boutin and astrophysicist Patrick Di Justo.)

    A conspiracy theory in the grand tradition

    You&#39;re no doubt wondering who&#39;s behind these flights of fancy and what, exactly, they&#39;re driving at. Well, according to the French newspaper Le Monde, the culprit is Thierry Meyssan, well-known leftist radical and president of the Voltaire Network, a controversial site devoted to "the fight for freedom and secularity." His son, Raphaël Meyssan, is credited as the Webmaster of both the Voltaire Network and Utopian Asylum, which, uncoincidentally, hosts "Hunt the Boeing&#33;"

    What are they trying to prove? That the attacks of September 11 were perpetrated not by foreign terrorists, but by the U.S. government upon its own citizens — a conspiracy theory in the grand tradition.

    To quote the late Carl Sagan, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

    So far we haven&#39;t seen any proof at all.


    Sources and further reading:

    Hunt the Boeing&#33;
    The original site on Asile.org
    &#39;Hunt the Boeing&#39; Answers
    Debunked by Paul Boutin and Patrick Di Justo

    &#39;Hunt the Boeing&#33;&#39;
    Debunked by the Urban Legends Reference Pages

    Un avion a bel et bien frappé le Pentagone
    From Le Monde, 20 March 2002 (in French)

    Internet véhicule une rumeur extravagante sur le 11 septembre
    From Le Monde, 20 March 2002 (in French)

    No Hope of Finding More Survivors at Pentagon
    From CNN, 12 Sep 2001

    Images Show September 11 Pentagon Crash
    From CNN, 8 March 2002

    Interactive Look at Pentagon Attack
    From USA Today

    The Battle-Scarred Pentagon
    From Jane&#39;s Information Group, 13 Sep 2001

    Rebuilding the Pentagon
    Graphics showing structural damage caused by Flight 77, from the Washington Post

    Experts ID 184 Pentagon Fatalities
    Armed Forces Institute of Pathology

    The Pentagon: Facts & Figures
    Offical Pentagon statistics

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