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Thread: Winning the Hearts and Minds

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    [url=http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600107101,00.html]http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,6001...0107101,00.html[/url]

    Anti-U.S. feelings growing

    By Elaine Jarvik
    Deseret Morning News

    Pro-American sentiment in the Middle East is at the lowest levels ever recorded in the single digits in some countries and is not likely to improve as the Bush administration tries to spread democracy around the globe, a Mideast scholar and pollster said Monday.

    The current U.S. mantra may be about democracy and liberty, "but there is a complete gap between what we say and how those words are received in the region," Shibley Telhami, Anwar Sadat Chairman of Peace and Development at the University of Maryland, said in a talk at the University of Utah.

    Telhami, author of the 2003 best seller "The Stakes: America, Iraq and the Middle East," has polled residents of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Morocco, Lebanon and the United Arab Emirates. His findings: The majority believe Iraq is less democratic since the United States toppled Saddam Hussein; that Iraqis are now worse off; and that the U.S. motivation for invading Iraq was oil, Israel and the desire to weaken the Muslim world.

    Even in Turkey, long pro-U.S. and secular, residents say they sense the United States targets Islam, said Telhami, who came away from a recent visit to Turkey with what he calls a "haunting image." The U.S. consulate there, he said, used to be in a beautiful old building in the heart of Istanbul. Now, for security reasons, it has been relocated to a "cold, huge structure" on a hill.

    "I had the haunting feeling that what (the Turks) were seeing was a crusader castle," he said.

    In the Middle East, "people don't have much faith in elections," Telhami said, because in some countries their governments have supported U.S. actions that the public opposed. And, he said, because they are nervous about public opinion, those governments have tightened controls and limited freedoms.

    The ironic upshot, Telhami said, is a lessening of democracy and liberty.

    "We have a national security priority that always trumps democracy," he said.

    "Everybody agrees that Saddam Hussein's regime was horrible," he said. But in the Middle East, they also see "a disintegration of society that is frightening. It is a terrifying model of anarchy. Most people fear anarchy more than they crave freedom."

    It is fashionable, he said, to blame the Arab media, particularly networks such as al-Jazeera, for the growing resentment of the United States. But the resentment is now worldwide, he said.

    Also, when he polled Middle Easterners to assess the effect of the media on public opinion, he discovered that what TV stations they watched didn't seem to make a difference. When he polled Arab-Americans who tend to watch Fox News and CNN, they answered much like Arabs elsewhere.

    Anger at the United States stems in part from a perception that "the U.S. is out to get" Muslims and Arabs," he said.

    When he asked Arabs around the world whether it was values or policies that motivated their opinion of the United States, the No. 1 issue was U.S. policy involving Israel.

    "It's the prism of pain through which people in the Middle East see America," Telhami said, "in the same way that 9/11 is the prism through which many in the U.S. see the Middle East."

    Education and income, he said, are the most predictive barometers of whether a Middle Easterner approves or disapproves of the United States it is the educated and the poor who are the most resentful.

    Telhami has served as a visiting scholar at the Woodrow Wilson Center, as adviser of the U.S. mission to the United Nations, as a board member at Human Rights Watch, and he was a member of the U.S. Advisory Group on Public Diplomacy for the Arab and Muslim World.

    Telhami's lecture was the first in a series called "U.S. Public Diplomacy in the Middle East," which will run intermittently during the winter and spring. The free lecture series is sponsored by the University's Middle East Center and is held at the Dumke Auditorium at the Utah Museum of Fine Arts. The presentations are available via live Web cast at [url]www.hum.utah.edu[/url].

    On Feb. 17: Ambassador Martin Indyk, director of the Saban Center for Middle East Policy and former assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern affairs. His book, "The Missing Peace," about the search for peace in the Middle East during the Clinton administration, is scheduled to be published this summer.

  2. #2
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Jan 26 2005, 11:47 AM
    [b] When he asked Arabs around the world whether it was values or policies that motivated their opinion of the United States, the No. 1 issue was U.S. policy involving Israel. [/b][/quote]
    as long as we treat Israel like the 51st state terrorism will not stop - mark my words -

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti+Jan 26 2005, 12:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (bitonti @ Jan 26 2005, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Section109Row15[/i]@Jan 26 2005, 11:47 AM
    [b] When he asked Arabs around the world whether it was values or policies that motivated their opinion of the United States, the No. 1 issue was U.S. policy involving Israel. [/b][/quote]
    as long as we treat Israel like the 51st state terrorism will not stop - mark my words - [/b][/quote]
    As long as certain states sponsor and support terrorism without having to pay a heavy price for it, terrorism will not stop.

    Don&#39;t blame Israel.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti+Jan 26 2005, 12:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (bitonti @ Jan 26 2005, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Section109Row15[/i]@Jan 26 2005, 11:47 AM
    [b] When he asked Arabs around the world whether it was values or policies that motivated their opinion of the United States, the No. 1 issue was U.S. policy involving Israel. [/b][/quote]
    as long as we treat Israel like the 51st state terrorism will not stop - mark my words - [/b][/quote]
    It&#39;s a compelling argument, but I&#39;m not sure I trust these guys to calm down, even if we handed over Israel.

    None of my Pakistani acquaintences in college (who would talk freely) supported the very existence of Israel...even if large chunks of it were given up.

    When I was on a tour of northern Isreal in the Navy, our guide said..."those hills are the Golan Heights. From there, they would shell and take pot-shots at people living in the valley below. This is why we felt the need to annex those areas 20 years ago, as a matter of self-defense".

    I think the "pot shots" will continue forever, as long as these people (who remind me more and more of Klingons) continue to have anger, trumped-up revenge, and religious violence as part of their psyche.

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    "Anger at the United States stems in part from a perception that "the U.S. is out to get" Muslims and Arabs," he said."

    When I was an obnoxious teenager and my parents would ground me after I did something wrong, I remember being Angry at them in part from a perception that they were out to get me. It wasn&#39;t until I grew up that I appreciated what they did was actually them trying to help me mature and become a better person.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by New England Hick[/i]@Jan 26 2005, 12:23 PM
    [b] As long as certain states sponsor and support terrorism without having to pay a heavy price for it, terrorism will not stop.

    Don&#39;t blame Israel. [/b][/quote]
    Israel was created on someone else&#39;s land - it sticks out like a splinter in the eye of the middle east. US created that nation out of thin air, drew lines on a map and then armed them to the teeth -

    im not blaming Israel im just stating the fact that terrorism will not outright stop as long as Israel is treated like an extension of USA.

    you can say im wrong but im watching and waiting for terrorism to stop or even decrease - if anything there is more anti-American sentiment now than ever - and im not convinced that making Iraq a democracy will change that.

    the middle east has hated Israel since the day the UN created it - that fact cannot be ignored

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    Who cares what these people think. Fundamentalist Islam is driven by hate and division. While I&#39;m sure many within the Islamic population are moderate, they are driven by extremist fundametalists who hate anything or anybody who goes against them. The population then has no choice but to follow as a flock. They hate us now because we&#39;re there. If we pulled our troops out, they would take up arms against someone else. If Israel was removed from the equation, they would turn on each other.

    The best way to stop them is leave them be and watch them kill themselves. Iran vs Iraq, Kurds vs Sunnis, Sunnites vs Shiites, Fundamentalis vs Moderates, Chechyns vs ?

    I dont lose any sleep over the fact that these people dont like us.
    The French bend over backwards to appease these people and they still take French hostages because of a stupid Headwear law. These people cannot be appeased.

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    "[i]Israel was created on someone else&#39;s land - it sticks out like a splinter in the eye of the middle east. US created that nation out of thin air, drew lines on a map and then armed them to the teeth [/i]-"

    If I remember my history right, Israel was creat by the Brits, who then abandoned them--Blame the Brits here--

    The US is protecting a state which left unprotected would be subject to annihalation by the Arabs. We do the same for the Arabs--see Yugoslavia.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by sect112row36[/i]@Jan 26 2005, 01:09 PM
    [b] If I remember my history right, Israel was creat by the Brits, who then abandoned them--Blame the Brits here--
    [/b][/quote]
    not true - the UN created Israel but really it was Harry Truman - his prez library site documents the whole process.

    [url=http://www.trumanlibrary.org/israel/palestin.htm]http://www.trumanlibrary.org/israel/palestin.htm[/url]

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    The UN partitioned Palestine and created Israel with the backing of the French and the British in 1948.

    The US had very little to do with Israel until the mid fifties.

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    ...and the far left&#39;s view that it is better to support the views of terrorists rather than support the only democracy in the middle east further alienates would-be democratic voters, and continues to cost the Dems election after election.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jets&Canes[/i]@Jan 26 2005, 06:11 PM
    [b] ...and the far left&#39;s view that it is better to support the views of terrorists rather than support the only democracy in the middle east further alienates would-be democratic voters, and continues to cost the Dems election after election. [/b][/quote]
    Right or wrong the vast majority of Muslims have these views. Some of it is based on hype from radicals and Al Jazeera (The Muslim Fox News,) but a lot of it is based on fact. This hatred towards the US is what fuels terrorist and allows them to recruit.

    The goal is to make amends for our past wrongs and gain a little respect in the Arab world. Rather than reaching out we went in and pissed them off even more. Iraq to this point is an utter failure, even if in 20 years it is a democracy it is not going to spread. Iraq will forever be seen as a pawn of the US like Israel.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti+Jan 26 2005, 01:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (bitonti @ Jan 26 2005, 01:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-New England Hick[/i]@Jan 26 2005, 12:23 PM
    [b] As long as certain states sponsor and support terrorism without having to pay a heavy price for it, terrorism will not stop.

    Don&#39;t blame Israel. [/b][/quote]
    Israel was created on someone else&#39;s land - it sticks out like a splinter in the eye of the middle east. US created that nation out of thin air, drew lines on a map and then armed them to the teeth -

    im not blaming Israel im just stating the fact that terrorism will not outright stop as long as Israel is treated like an extension of USA.

    you can say im wrong but im watching and waiting for terrorism to stop or even decrease - if anything there is more anti-American sentiment now than ever - and im not convinced that making Iraq a democracy will change that.

    the middle east has hated Israel since the day the UN created it - that fact cannot be ignored [/b][/quote]
    And YOUR solution is?

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    Section -

    I have decided that you can&#39;t possibly believe what you write.

    Please define &#39;respect&#39; and &#39;amends&#39; and &#39;reaching out&#39; in the context of your post.

    Buzzwords, all of them. Meaningless.

    Man, are you only capable of half-assed wit and Dem talking points? Christ, earlier you couldn&#39;t even bring yourself to admit that Bill Clinton was a complete and utter failure with regards to terrorism. So was Reagan, so was Bush prior to 9-11...it&#39;s okay to admit things.

    Everything you ever seem to post always comes back to "GOP = bad, Dem = good. America (when a GOP is ins power) = bad." It&#39;s like clockwork....

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15+Jan 26 2005, 03:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Section109Row15 @ Jan 26 2005, 03:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Jets&Canes[/i]@Jan 26 2005, 06:11 PM
    [b] ...and the far left&#39;s view that it is better to support the views of terrorists rather than support the only democracy in the middle east further alienates would-be democratic voters, and continues to cost the Dems election after election. [/b][/quote]
    Right or wrong the vast majority of Muslims have these views. Some of it is based on hype from radicals and Al Jazeera (The Muslim Fox News,) but a lot of it is based on fact. This hatred towards the US is what fuels terrorist and allows them to recruit.

    The goal is to make amends for our past wrongs and gain a little respect in the Arab world. Rather than reaching out we went in and pissed them off even more. Iraq to this point is an utter failure, even if in 20 years it is a democracy it is not going to spread. Iraq will forever be seen as a pawn of the US like Israel. [/b][/quote]
    "Right or wrong the vast majority of Muslims have these views."

    Right or wrong??&#33;&#33; This is a religious group that treats women as a sub-species and condones violence against non-believers. Damn right they are wrong, and I&#39;m glad we don&#39;t accept their values as "fact".



    "The goal is to make amends for our past wrongs..."

    Spoken like a true appeaser. That is NOT the goal. Wake up, will ya?

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    [quote][b]Section -

    I have decided that you can&#39;t possibly believe what you write.

    Please define &#39;respect&#39; and &#39;amends&#39; and &#39;reaching out&#39; in the context of your post.

    Buzzwords, all of them. Meaningless.[/b][/quote]

    Buzzwords? Kind of like Bush&#39;s use of the words Freedom and Liberty around 50 times in a 27 minute long innaguration speech? Meaningless? Yes they are meaningless when the US does the exact opposite.

    [quote][b]Man, are you only capable of half-assed wit and Dem talking points? Christ, earlier you couldn&#39;t even bring yourself to admit that Bill Clinton was a complete and utter failure with regards to terrorism. So was Reagan, so was Bush prior to 9-11...it&#39;s okay to admit things.[/b][/quote]

    Yes Clinton could have done more. All that I&#39;m saying is that atleast he was aware of the issues and devouted time and resources to address the issue. He tried to assasinate Bin Laden, and failed. He woke up the eyes of the American people to the threat posed by Al Queda. To be honest, at the time I got sucked up by the GOP backlash saying he was "wagging the dog." Maybe if there wasn&#39;t a multi-year "independent" witch hunt going on he could have done more. Or maybe if he poured billions into a missle defense system 9/11 would have never happened. Clinton wasn&#39;t the greatest, but remember he had to deal with a Republican majority for most of his term.

    [quote][b]Everything you ever seem to post always comes back to "GOP = bad, Dem = good. America (when a GOP is ins power) = bad." It&#39;s like clockwork....
    [/b][/quote]

    The current GOP is "bad" I honestly can&#39;t think of one way they have made this country better off during the Bush administration. Why don&#39;t you enlighten me?

    Iraq=failure up to this point.
    Taxes=failure for 98% of Americans.
    Economy=great if you think massive debt is a good thing.
    Diplomacy=The US approval ratings are at an all time low.
    Immigration Reform=Slave labor is always good.
    The environment=Global Warming is junk science.
    Education=Underfund Clinton&#39;s no child left behind act (GOP wouldn&#39;t pass it for Clinton) Teach creationism in school.
    National Security=As long as we all have duct tape and plastic sheeting we&#39;ll be fine. Where&#39;s Osama?
    Liberties=The Patriot Act, Patriot Act part deux comming soon.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Jets&Canes+Jan 26 2005, 07:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Jets&Canes &#064; Jan 26 2005, 07:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by Section109Row15@Jan 26 2005, 03:20 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin-Jets&Canes[/i]@Jan 26 2005, 06:11 PM
    [b] ...and the far left&#39;s view that it is better to support the views of terrorists rather than support the only democracy in the middle east further alienates would-be democratic voters, and continues to cost the Dems election after election. [/b][/quote]
    Right or wrong the vast majority of Muslims have these views. Some of it is based on hype from radicals and Al Jazeera (The Muslim Fox News,) but a lot of it is based on fact. This hatred towards the US is what fuels terrorist and allows them to recruit.

    The goal is to make amends for our past wrongs and gain a little respect in the Arab world. Rather than reaching out we went in and pissed them off even more. Iraq to this point is an utter failure, even if in 20 years it is a democracy it is not going to spread. Iraq will forever be seen as a pawn of the US like Israel. [/b][/quote]
    "Right or wrong the vast majority of Muslims have these views."

    Right or wrong??&#33;&#33; This is a religious group that treats women as a sub-species and condones violence against non-believers. Damn right they are wrong, and I&#39;m glad we don&#39;t accept their values as "fact".



    "The goal is to make amends for our past wrongs..."

    Spoken like a true appeaser. That is NOT the goal. Wake up, will ya? [/b][/quote]
    I was talking about their views of the US. Some of their views are obviously wrong, but many of them are grounded in truth.

    No we are not the evil satan.

    Yes we did torture and humiliate prisoners in Abu Gharib.

    Appeasment can be a good thing if it can normalize relations and bring about peace. Bombing the crap out of them doesn&#39;t seem to be working.

    Have you ever appeased your wife/girlfriend/life partner/etc...? Some battles aren&#39;t worth fighting. Trying to bring Democracy to a region that doesn&#39;t want it is a waste of time just like trying to argue with a women about logic is a waste of time.

  18. #18
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Jan 26 2005, 05:01 PM
    [b]
    And YOUR solution is? [/b][/quote]
    i&#39;ve post my solution so many times i don&#39;t know if i have the energy to write up a long post that no one&#39;s gonna read again.

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    "the middle east has hated Israel since the day the UN created it - that fact cannot be ignored "

    For starters, the "middle east" (read: Arabs) have to accept that Israel exists. Their stated goal to destroy Israel is unacceptable. The A-rabs must change their basic premise for any solution to be workable.

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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Jan 26 2005, 05:52 PM
    [b]
    Yes we did torture and humiliate prisoners in Abu Gharib.

    Appeasment can be a good thing if it can normalize relations and bring about peace. Bombing the crap out of them doesn&#39;t seem to be working.

    Have you ever appeased your wife/girlfriend/life partner/etc...? Some battles aren&#39;t worth fighting. Trying to bring Democracy to a region that doesn&#39;t want it is a waste of time just like trying to argue with a women about logic is a waste of time. [/b][/quote]
    You are ridiculous. Meanwhile, the Iraqis are champing at the bit to excercize the right to vote.

    Since you&#39;ve bought so heavily into the "Iraq is a failure" argument, no matter what happens, you&#39;re now arguing against their right to vote.

    Welcome to obscurity. Not long ago President Bush promised to send the tyrants (real f&#39;ing tyrants) to the dustbins of obscurity. I didn&#39;t know he&#39;d be sweeping the arguments of mere American obstructionists with them. What a welcome suprise.

    Oh, and Abu Gharib? Get with the now, sourgrapes, that was media driven fodder in election season, not the defining moment of our country&#39;s effort overseas.

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