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Thread: Bloodshed in Iraq

  1. #1
    i can't even verbalize how Angry and disgusted i am about the continued fighting in Iraq - it's been 2 damn years and more Americans are dying then ever before!!!

    5 men blown up here, 2 guys shot up there, its all adding up ... we have lost like 50 men this week alone!! it just doesn't end does it?

    our men are dying for what exactly? how is this getting better? does anyone have any sort of answer? (besides telling me to shutup)

    you can call me whatever you want you can attack me as some sort of commie but i don't give a damn - there is the truth and there is bull**** - this war is 100% unadulterated bull****.

    does anyone really believe that after this weekend's election (or after capturing Al Zaqwari) Iraq will be transformed into a magic happy place??? i certainly don't.

    our soldiers are supposed to be deployed to defend the AMERICAN way of life - not the IRAQI way of life. Why the f--k should i care if Iraq is a democracy? they are still animals!!!

    no one is willing to admit just how far off we were - i thought that maybe when the death count reached 1000 people would notice - here we are well over 1400 with literally dozens of men dying this week alone - im sad and disgusted.

    the death of these men lies not only on the head of George Bush but on EVERYONE who has supported this lost cause war. That includes John Kerry by the way - but this isn't about partisan politics it's about warfare.

    [b]you can't win a war without a goal[/b]

    what is our goal in Iraq?

    all we are doing is wasting lives and wasting American treasure for a THEORY.

    the theory that a democratic Iraq will transform the region.

    what a freakin pipe dream...

  2. #2
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    Bitonti-

    I'd post a reply, but we;ve had this conversation literally doezens of times and we always end up at the same place. Every few months, you write a post like this. I understand your frustrations, I really do. But you already know what my opinion is on this matter, as I do yours.....

  3. #3
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    [quote][b]what a freakin pipe dream...
    [/b][/quote]

    You just answered your own question. Bush dreams of oil pipes suckling the 2nd largest oil supply and lining the pockets of his cronnies.

  4. #4
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 02:06 PM
    [b] Every few months, you write a post like this. I understand your frustrations, I really do. But you already know what my opinion is on this matter, as I do yours..... [/b][/quote]
    the war you supported was supposed to be over by now - that doesn't bother you?

    i don't need the whole song and dance but if you could take a wack at any of the above questions that would be great because they are not rhetorical.

  5. #5
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 02:45 PM
    [b] [quote][b]what a freakin pipe dream...
    [/b][/quote]

    You just answered your own question. Bush dreams of oil pipes suckling the 2nd largest oil supply and lining the pockets of his cronnies. [/b][/quote]
    OK, say you claim is true.....so what??

    We deposed a Tyranical Murderer, one who has on multiple occassions waged warfare against the United States. Above and beyond that, the Iraqi people will eventually reap the benifits of Democracy and freedom (and their oil).

    So what if the U.S. makes a little profit all the while. So what if we establish a very pro-US regime, democraticly of course.

    You imply we should be acting in someone ELSE'S interests, above our own. Why would anyone think that?

  6. #6
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti+Jan 28 2005, 02:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (bitonti @ Jan 28 2005, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jets5ever[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 02:06 PM
    [b] Every few months, you write a post like this. I understand your frustrations, I really do. But you already know what my opinion is on this matter, as I do yours..... [/b][/quote]
    the war you supported was supposed to be over by now - that doesn&#39;t bother you?

    i don&#39;t need the whole song and dance but if you could take a wack at any of the above questions that would be great because they are not rhetorical. [/b][/quote]
    No, it wasn&#39;t supposed to be over by now, Bitonti.

    My main difference with you, aside form the general "support" versus "don&#39;t support" this war issue is that there are differences in being Angry about mistakes we have made in the prosecution of this war and the separate issue of whether or not the war itself is a good strategic idea. I think it is a good strategic idea, but that we have, thus far, made some very serious mistakes...mistakes so serious that perhaps we could fail to achieve the larger, strategic objectives we have set out to, because of them.


    I think there is, overall, a morbid fascination with body counts here. As if 500 deaths or some other number is acceptable, but any amount above X deaths is unacceptable.

    I also think that we are not getting a full picture of what is going on. My cousin has been corresponding with my father and he paints a picture that is far different from the one we are getting in drips from our media. We hear nothing about Iraq save for headlines about people dying, when there is much more than that going on.

    This is notto say that there aren&#39;t real problems, or that your rage about the deaths of American soldiers isn&#39;t justified. It is.

    But parts of your post are inconsistent. In the first part, you seem to think our goals in Iraq are unacheivable (magical happy place), yet in the second part, you say that we don&#39;t have any goals. Which is it?

    You also say that this war is bullsh*t, yet in the second part pf your post say that it is for a theory. Theories are right or wrong, but are they bullsh*t just because they [i]may [/i]be wrong or you think they are wrong?

    You have always lauded yourself as a Big Picture guy. And you should, because you are. Your Big Picture analysis is just different than Bush&#39;s regarding Iraq and terrorism. You have said all along that we should fight the root causes of terrorism. Well, would you at least agree that Bush is doing that, even if in your opinion, he&#39;s going about it incorrectly? Surely you can see the appeal of creating a free, representative, comparitvely pro-US government/culture in the heart of the Middle East, and in the proces removing a wealthy, armed, and passionate supporter of terrorism...and one who was a HUGE detriment to the peace process between Israel and Palestine, which you have repeatedly identified as the source of much of the world&#39;s anti-Western terrorism?


    I think, in general, if one is isolationist, one would not agree with this war. Further, if you view the Iraq War outside of the context of the broader global war on terrorism, which you do, than you would not support this war.

    Your viewpoints are just as valid as mine. It is just a difference of opinion.

  7. #7
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish+Jan 28 2005, 05:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Warfish @ Jan 28 2005, 05:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Section109Row15[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 02:45 PM
    [b] [quote][b]what a freakin pipe dream...
    [/b][/quote]

    You just answered your own question. Bush dreams of oil pipes suckling the 2nd largest oil supply and lining the pockets of his cronnies. [/b][/quote]
    OK, say you claim is true.....so what??

    We deposed a Tyranical Murderer, one who has on multiple occassions waged warfare against the United States. Above and beyond that, the Iraqi people will eventually reap the benifits of Democracy and freedom (and their oil).

    So what if the U.S. makes a little profit all the while. So what if we establish a very pro-US regime, democraticly of course.

    You imply we should be acting in someone ELSE&#39;S interests, above our own. Why would anyone think that? [/b][/quote]
    You don&#39;t wage a war on that premise. If there is nothing wrong with that then why don&#39;t they come out and say it instead of trumping up false intelligence?

    There are a lot of tyranical dictators. It is not our job to bomb the crap out of them to bring democracy, which as it appears they don&#39;t even want.

    Would you want a loved one to die for this cause?

    BTW in the first 2.5 years of Vietnam we only lost 1000 soldiers.

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    Why do you say it appears they don&#39;t want democracy?

  9. #9
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 05:28 PM
    [b] Why do you say it appears they don&#39;t want democracy? [/b][/quote]
    The bloodshead on a daily basis. The lack of people registered to vote. The hatred towards us. The instability. The low turnout for foreign nationals to vote. The feeling that whoever is ultimatly elected will be a religious cleric who will rule similar to Sadaam. The real threat of a civil war.

  10. #10
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 03:15 PM
    [b] But parts of your post are inconsistent. In the first part, you seem to think our goals in Iraq are unacheivable (magical happy place), yet in the second part, you say that we don&#39;t have any goals. Which is it?

    You also say that this war is bullsh*t, yet in the second part pf your post say that it is for a theory. Theories are right or wrong, but are they bullsh*t just because they [i]may [/i]be wrong or you think they are wrong?

    You have always lauded yourself as a Big Picture guy. And you should, because you are. Your Big Picture analysis is just different than Bush&#39;s regarding Iraq and terrorism. You have said all along that we should fight the root causes of terrorism. Well, would you at least agree that Bush is doing that, even if in your opinion, he&#39;s going about it incorrectly?

    Surely you can see the appeal of creating a free, representative, comparitvely pro-US government/culture in the heart of the Middle East, and in the proces removing a wealthy, armed, and passionate supporter of terrorism...and one who was a HUGE detriment to the peace process between Israel and Palestine, which you have repeatedly identified as the source of much of the world&#39;s anti-Western terrorism?
    [/b][/quote]
    if the goals are unachievable then we are essentially purusing a "null" goal. To put it another way if we are running a race with the goal of reaching the finish line... but there is no finish line then that&#39;s running for nothing.

    again if we are fighting for a theory that&#39;s equivalent in my eyes as fighting for bull**** - the last time we fought and lost men for a theory was in fact Vietnam - which was i think we can all agree 100% Bull****.

    the problem with Bush&#39;s action is that governments have little relevance in the mind of the terrorist - we can set up the most US friendly gov&#39;ts in the world but if the people on the street don&#39;t buy into it that&#39;s not changing anything - look no further than Saudi Arabia which exists essentially as a footstool for American energy policy.

    people think that democracy CREATES wealth and education - that somehow a form of government can solve all the world&#39;s problems - the truth is that democracy can create those things but only if it exists in the PRESENCE of those things - you can&#39;t run a liberal democracy in a country without an economy, with a population that is stuck in the stone age&#33;&#33; im sorry but aside from the black market for body armor there&#39;s nothing that democracy can cling to&#33;&#33;

    Demo-cracy means rule by the people - i really wonder what sort of gov&#39;t Iraq will have with THOSE people running the show.

    We are fighting an unconventional war using conventional warfare. Bush isn&#39;t doing anything more than creating energy policy opportunities and using our own military as human shields. They die so that we don&#39;t have to...

    You grow exhausted with this exchange well don&#39;t think i love to go back down this road - we have always said that history would be the final judge - honestly how do you think history is judging this action?

  11. #11
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    It&#39;s simplistic to post 1-liners on these topics, but I think a big differentiator is that the Vietnamese arent coming HERE to blow things up.

    And after leaving, we aren&#39;t really worried about the Vietnamese coming here to blow things up.

  12. #12
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti+Jan 28 2005, 05:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (bitonti @ Jan 28 2005, 05:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jets5ever[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 03:15 PM
    [b] But parts of your post are inconsistent. In the first part, you seem to think our goals in Iraq are unacheivable (magical happy place), yet in the second part, you say that we don&#39;t have any goals. Which is it?

    You also say that this war is bullsh*t, yet in the second part pf your post say that it is for a theory. Theories are right or wrong, but are they bullsh*t just because they [i]may [/i]be wrong or you think they are wrong?

    You have always lauded yourself as a Big Picture guy. And you should, because you are. Your Big Picture analysis is just different than Bush&#39;s regarding Iraq and terrorism. You have said all along that we should fight the root causes of terrorism. Well, would you at least agree that Bush is doing that, even if in your opinion, he&#39;s going about it incorrectly?

    Surely you can see the appeal of creating a free, representative, comparitvely pro-US government/culture in the heart of the Middle East, and in the proces removing a wealthy, armed, and passionate supporter of terrorism...and one who was a HUGE detriment to the peace process between Israel and Palestine, which you have repeatedly identified as the source of much of the world&#39;s anti-Western terrorism?
    [/b][/quote]
    if the goals are unachievable then we are essentially purusing a "null" goal. To put it another way if we are running a race with the goal of reaching the finish line... but there is no finish line then that&#39;s running for nothing.

    again if we are fighting for a theory that&#39;s equivalent in my eyes as fighting for bull**** - the last time we fought and lost men for a theory was in fact Vietnam - which was i think we can all agree 100% Bull****.

    the problem with Bush&#39;s action is that governments have little relevance in the mind of the terrorist - we can set up the most US friendly gov&#39;ts in the world but if the people on the street don&#39;t buy into it that&#39;s not changing anything - look no further than Saudi Arabia which exists essentially as a footstool for American energy policy.

    people think that democracy CREATES wealth and education - that somehow a form of government can solve all the world&#39;s problems - the truth is that democracy can create those things but only if it exists in the PRESENCE of those things - you can&#39;t run a liberal democracy in a country without an economy, with a population that is stuck in the stone age&#33;&#33; im sorry but aside from the black market for body armor there&#39;s nothing that democracy can cling to&#33;&#33;

    Demo-cracy means rule by the people - i really wonder what sort of gov&#39;t Iraq will have with THOSE people running the show.

    We are fighting an unconventional war using conventional warfare. Bush isn&#39;t doing anything more than creating energy policy opportunities and using our own military as human shields. They die so that we don&#39;t have to...

    You grow exhausted with this exchange well don&#39;t think i love to go back down this road - we have always said that history would be the final judge - honestly how do you think history is judging this action? [/b][/quote]
    You&#39;re such a child.

  13. #13
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 01:47 PM
    [b] i can&#39;t even verbalize how Angry and disgusted i am about the continued fighting in Iraq - it&#39;s been 2 damn years and more Americans are dying then ever before&#33;&#33;&#33;

    5 men blown up here, 2 guys shot up there, its all adding up ... we have lost like 50 men this week alone&#33;&#33; it just doesn&#39;t end does it?

    our men are dying for what exactly? how is this getting better? does anyone have any sort of answer? (besides telling me to shutup)

    you can call me whatever you want you can attack me as some sort of commie but i don&#39;t give a damn - there is the truth and there is bull**** - this war is 100% unadulterated bull****.

    does anyone really believe that after this weekend&#39;s election (or after capturing Al Zaqwari) Iraq will be transformed into a magic happy place??? i certainly don&#39;t.

    our soldiers are supposed to be deployed to defend the AMERICAN way of life - not the IRAQI way of life. Why the f--k should i care if Iraq is a democracy? they are still animals&#33;&#33;&#33;

    no one is willing to admit just how far off we were - i thought that maybe when the death count reached 1000 people would notice - here we are well over 1400 with literally dozens of men dying this week alone - im sad and disgusted.

    the death of these men lies not only on the head of George Bush but on EVERYONE who has supported this lost cause war. That includes John Kerry by the way - but this isn&#39;t about partisan politics it&#39;s about warfare.

    [b]you can&#39;t win a war without a goal[/b]

    what is our goal in Iraq?

    all we are doing is wasting lives and wasting American treasure for a THEORY.

    the theory that a democratic Iraq will transform the region.

    what a freakin pipe dream... [/b][/quote]
    Hey take it easy with the we(s), our(s) and all of the other possessive pronouns you&#39;re throwing around Bud. I had nothing to do with this mess. I fought it every step of the way. That Liberal routine of obfuscating responsibility actually enables Bush and the rest of his merry crew. Remember, if everyone is responsible for everything then no one is responsible for anything. If those flag waving ding-dongs want to suck up to Bush and identify with his imperial aims it would be prudent for any legitimate opposition to distance themselves from Bush.

    BTW you are quite correct about Kerry. There is little doubt in my mind the world situation would be worse right now if Kerry were elected.

    As to answering your question loosely paraphrased "when will it all end". That is fairly simple to answer Bitonti. The world works on the principle of Force vs Counter Force. Right now Bush & Co are running hog wild in the mideast because no one is there to stand up to the Bully. But the action that is taking place is reaping consequences, namely tens of thousands of GIs that are injured many of whom have their brains cooked. When they are discharged from the military you can bet Bush and his penny pinching cronies will wish them luck and wave goodbye without providing those GIs with any means to support themselves. That&#39;s when the fun starts. At that point you can bet your bottom dollar those guys will put their military skills to use in all sorts of nefarious ways. That&#39;s when you will see bombs stuffed in garbage cans, sharp shooters picking off ordinary citizens trying to make a living. (remember John Lee Mohammed) etc, etc, etc. Eventually Bush&#39;s handlers will recognize that the American People will hit the boiling point then we will see if they have brains or stupid arrogance. If they have brains the Bushies will backdown. (Force vs CounterForce) If they have arrogance they will crank up the police state big time in an attempt to slam the pressure cooker tight. All that does is delay the inevitable and in most cases makes it worse.

    In short Bitonti there is no timeline that can easily be set for such matters but an "event line" is not very hard to define.

  14. #14
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    Good call WCM. I&#39;ll give you 1,000,000-to-1 odds that what you&#39;ve decsribed doesn&#39;t happen. If it does, I owe you &#036;1 million. If it doesn&#39;t, you owe me &#036;1.

    Please respond without using the word "paradigm."

  15. #15
    [quote][i]Originally posted by JerryK[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 04:12 PM
    [b] It&#39;s simplistic to post 1-liners on these topics, but I think a big differentiator is that the Vietnamese arent coming HERE to blow things up.

    And after leaving, we aren&#39;t really worried about the Vietnamese coming here to blow things up. [/b][/quote]
    funny i was never worried about the Iraqis coming over here to blow stuff up :lol:

  16. #16
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 04:25 PM
    [b] Good call WCM. I&#39;ll give you 1,000,000-to-1 odds that what you&#39;ve decsribed doesn&#39;t happen. If it does, I owe you &#036;1 million. If it doesn&#39;t, you owe me &#036;1.

    Please respond without using the word "paradigm." [/b][/quote]
    5ever instead of empty Grandstanding why don&#39;t you explain to everyone here why my scenario won&#39;t come to pass ?

    BTW I haven&#39;t used the word paradigm in quite some time. What&#39;s the matter, tired of pulling out your dictionary every other thread you read ? ;)

  17. #17
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    [quote][i]Originally posted by WestCoastMole+Jan 28 2005, 04:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (WestCoastMole @ Jan 28 2005, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jets5ever[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 04:25 PM
    [b] Good call WCM. I&#39;ll give you 1,000,000-to-1 odds that what you&#39;ve decsribed doesn&#39;t happen. If it does, I owe you &#036;1 million. If it doesn&#39;t, you owe me &#036;1.

    Please respond without using the word "paradigm." [/b][/quote]
    5ever instead of empty Grandstanding why don&#39;t you explain to everyone here why my scenario won&#39;t come to pass ?

    BTW I haven&#39;t used the word paradigm in quite some time. What&#39;s the matter, tired of pulling out your dictionary every other thread you read ? ;) [/b][/quote]
    You should understand by now that you simply cannot prove a negative. No one can prove with any reliabillity that something WON&#39;T happen.

    The burden is on you WCM, it&#39;s your theory. Prove to US why your theory WILL come to pass. Please explain how our millitary has fought countless campaigns over the past 200+ years, and yet your scenario has never come true before, but will this time.

  18. #18
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish+Jan 28 2005, 04:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (Warfish @ Jan 28 2005, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [quote]Originally posted by WestCoastMole@Jan 28 2005, 04:44 PM
    [b] <!--QuoteBegin-jets5ever[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 04:25 PM
    [b] Good call WCM. I&#39;ll give you 1,000,000-to-1 odds that what you&#39;ve decsribed doesn&#39;t happen. If it does, I owe you &#036;1 million. If it doesn&#39;t, you owe me &#036;1.

    Please respond without using the word "paradigm." [/b][/quote]
    5ever instead of empty Grandstanding why don&#39;t you explain to everyone here why my scenario won&#39;t come to pass ?

    BTW I haven&#39;t used the word paradigm in quite some time. What&#39;s the matter, tired of pulling out your dictionary every other thread you read ? ;) [/b][/quote]
    You should understand by now that you simply cannot prove a negative. No one can prove with any reliabillity that something WON&#39;T happen.

    The burden is on you WCM, it&#39;s your theory. Prove to US why your theory WILL come to pass. Please explain how our millitary has fought countless campaigns over the past 200+ years, and yet your scenario has never come true before, but will this time. [/b][/quote]
    Seconded. WCM is forecasting civil war. Keep smokin&#39; dude.

  19. #19
    [quote][i]Originally posted by bitonti[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 01:47 PM
    [b] i can&#39;t even verbalize how Angry and disgusted i am about the continued fighting in Iraq - it&#39;s been 2 damn years and more Americans are dying then ever before&#33;&#33;&#33;

    5 men blown up here, 2 guys shot up there, its all adding up ... we have lost like 50 men this week alone&#33;&#33; it just doesn&#39;t end does it?

    our men are dying for what exactly? how is this getting better? does anyone have any sort of answer? (besides telling me to shutup)

    you can call me whatever you want you can attack me as some sort of commie but i don&#39;t give a damn - there is the truth and there is bull**** - this war is 100% unadulterated bull****.

    does anyone really believe that after this weekend&#39;s election (or after capturing Al Zaqwari) Iraq will be transformed into a magic happy place??? i certainly don&#39;t.

    our soldiers are supposed to be deployed to defend the AMERICAN way of life - not the IRAQI way of life. Why the f--k should i care if Iraq is a democracy? they are still animals&#33;&#33;&#33;

    no one is willing to admit just how far off we were - i thought that maybe when the death count reached 1000 people would notice - here we are well over 1400 with literally dozens of men dying this week alone - im sad and disgusted.

    the death of these men lies not only on the head of George Bush but on EVERYONE who has supported this lost cause war. That includes John Kerry by the way - but this isn&#39;t about partisan politics it&#39;s about warfare.

    [b]you can&#39;t win a war without a goal[/b]

    what is our goal in Iraq?

    all we are doing is wasting lives and wasting American treasure for a THEORY.

    the theory that a democratic Iraq will transform the region.

    what a freakin pipe dream... [/b][/quote]
    Bit--are you as upset and frustrated over the 800 Americans who die in auto accidents every month? Many by some idiot who&#39;s drunk? What did they die for?

  20. #20
    [quote][i]Originally posted by asuusa[/i]@Jan 28 2005, 05:10 PM
    [b]
    Bit--are you as upset and frustrated over the 800 Americans who die in auto accidents every month? Many by some idiot who&#39;s drunk? What did they die for? [/b][/quote]
    forgive me if i don&#39;t see the connection between auto accidents and war.

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