View Poll Results: How Many American Lives is Iraqi Freedom Worth??

Voters
12. You may not vote on this poll
  • Not a Single American Life!

    9 75.00%
  • 100+

    0 0%
  • 1,000+

    0 0%
  • 10,000+

    0 0%
  • 50,000+

    1 8.33%
  • 100,000+

    0 0%
  • 500,000+

    0 0%
  • Any Number it Takes!

    2 16.67%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27

Thread: How Many American Lives is Iraqi Freedom Worth??

  1. #1
    I see alot of folks, on both sides of the isle here, argue about the war, was it right, are the costs worth it.......

    So I want to see, in as orderly way as possible, how much you think the freedom of Iraq is worth.

    So the question is: How many American lives would you be willing to sacrifice for the freedom of the Iraqi People and the benifits that freedom create in our greater "War on Terror". In effect, I am asking what your "Breaking Point" is, the point at which you would say "No More" American deaths in this cause.

    Iraqi Freedom andthe Effect of the overall "War on Terror" is, if I am not mistaken, Mr. Bush, our leader's, official position on why we are in Iraq today. So that is the reason I too will give, and the reason I expect you all to use when making your choice.

    So make your choice, and post your number and your reason.

  2. #2
    My vote: Not a Single American Life.

    My reason: I do not believe it is our country's job, or world role, to bring freedom to those too weak or too simple minded to take that freedom for themselves.

    I do not belive that we should spend the soon to be trillions of dollars of American Taxpayer money to bring freedom to those who refused to fight for it when it mattered, when Saddam was in control.

    I do not believe that the greater "War on Terror" will be aided by a puppet state Iraq, a Representation Republic where only American approved candidates have a chance at winning. Even the most simple minded of American enemies can see through that ruse.

    I do not belive the war is wrong either. I simply belive that taking the soft road, the "liberal warfare" road was a poor choice. Our goal should NOT be someone elses freedom. Th eonly goal of our Government should be American safety, by all means and at all costs.

    If Iraq was in bed with AQ and Bin laden, then we should have done what we have done in the past: Destroy, Dominate and Dismantle with all the incredable power and fury at our command.

    Bullies do not learn from soft people, people who prattle onabout noble goals like freedom. They learn when their men are killed by the thousands, rooted out of every hole they can find. They learn when they realize that to fight America means their certain uniquivacable destruction.

    So I WOULD sacrifice American Lives for the cause of American safety. But I would not waste one single American life to free a people who refused to rise up and take the freedom some think they so desire. I come form a nation of people who fought for their freedom over and over for hundred of years, against odds no one would take, and lost just about every damn time. The Iraqi people never truly made that sacrifice. Not a single time. So I will not congratulate them on their supposed "bravery" today when they vote under the watchful and protecting eye of American Soldiers.

  3. #3
    Jets Insider VIP
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Posts
    31,408
    Problem is you are putting blinders on...this is not just about Iraqi freedom it is about the long term fight against terrorism...how many people must make the ultimate sacrifice before we defeat terrorism?

  4. #4
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Come Back to NY[/i]@Jan 31 2005, 09:29 PM
    [b] Problem is you are putting blinders on...this is not just about Iraqi freedom it is about the long term fight against terrorism...how many people must make the ultimate sacrifice before we defeat terrorism? [/b][/quote]
    BINGO

  5. #5
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    4,530
    In 1861, how many was too many?

    In 1941, how many was too many?

    No one wants to see a single American soldier die. But if we didn't stop Saddam and Al Qaeda, when do we stop them-Saudi Arabia, Kuwait again, Israel, Western Europe, another 9/11? What if they had stopped Hitler in 1938, or Mao in 1946, or Pol Pot in 1976, or Tojo in Manchuria in 1933?

    Heck, JFK said we'd pay any price and bear any burden to pay the price of freedom. And then promptly left some brave Cubanos on a beach to get slaughtered, and marched us into Vietnam. And he and his successors wound up losing some 58,000 American lives. I'm not even saying JFK was wrong in either decision(though LBJ was a buffoon in how he ran Vietnam).

    Just understand that a raw number, as awful as it may be, isn't how you measure.The question is does the policy make snse long-term. And I believe it does. Though we all hope that based on these elections the timetable for American soldiers to come home moves up.

    To this day, the Civil War is still the deadliest in American history.

  6. #6
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Come Back to NY[/i]@Jan 31 2005, 09:29 PM
    [b] Problem is you are putting blinders on...this is not just about Iraqi freedom it is about the long term fight against terrorism...how many people must make the ultimate sacrifice before we defeat terrorism? [/b][/quote]
    I agree. This is about preventing more 9/11s. It's that simple, always has been.

    Leftywonks (many of whom have trouble posting lately) have no problem saying it's about oil, macho muscle flexing, jingoistic nationalism - rarely, never actually, will they admit it's everything Bush says it is. MAKING THE WORLD (that's us) SAFER THROUGH INTRODUCING DEMOCRACY IN OPPRESSED LANDS.

    Al Qaeda will suffocate in a world with hope. If I was a mullah or king in Iran or Syria or Saudi Arabia - I'd be a hell of a lot more nervous about the advent of hope within my subjects than any smart bomb nailing my palace. Bush's foreign policy, while starting to bear some hard earned fruit right now, has some serious upside potential - for the world.

    Now, what the hell has the UN done for anyone lately???

  7. #7
    All League
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    In Kicking Pats-a$$ country
    Posts
    874
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Bugg[/i]@Jan 31 2005, 09:06 PM
    [b] In 1861, how many was too many?

    In 1941, how many was too many?

    No one wants to see a single American soldier die. But if we didn't stop Saddam and Al Qaeda, when do we stop them-Saudi Arabia, Kuwait again, Israel, Western Europe, another 9/11? What if they had stopped Hitler in 1938, or Mao in 1946, or Pol Pot in 1976, or Tojo in Manchuria in 1933?

    Heck, JFK said we'd pay any price and bear any burden to pay the price of freedom. And then promptly left some brave Cubanos on a beach to get slaughtered, and marched us into Vietnam. And he and his successors wound up losing some 58,000 American lives. I'm not even saying JFK was wrong in either decision(though LBJ was a buffoon in how he ran Vietnam).

    Just understand that a raw number, as awful as it may be, isn't how you measure.The question is does the policy make snse long-term. And I believe it does. Though we all hope that based on these elections the timetable for American soldiers to come home moves up.

    To this day, the Civil War is still the deadliest in American history. [/b][/quote]
    The thing is "Saddam and Al Qaeda" never existed. The 9/11 Commission Report proved that. I also believe Rumsfeld also admitted it. It's also not hard to figure out considering Bin Laden has said that he hates Hussein and he does not believe that he deserves to be a Muslim. Bin Laden also predicted America would invade and occupy an oil-rich Arabic country, and guess what? Al Qaeda recruitment has gone ^^^ because of the war in Iraq, which is now a haven for terrorism. I believe fighting al Qaeda is absolutely necessary and that horrific organization, along with all others like them, need to be destroyed to the best of our ability. But these people were not allied with Hussein, they are allied with the Iranian government, and probably have a closer relationship with Saudi Arabia then Iraq. At the time JFK said what he said we were in the middle of a Cold War and were doing our best to stop the spread of Communism and the Soviet Union. We won that war, but it was a very different kind of war than the war on terror. The leaders of the terrorists are not readily visible like Stalin or Kruschev. Also, my history on the beginning of Vietnam is shabby, but wasn't in Johnson who truly escalated the war and made it what it was after the Gulf of Tonkin? And JFK had put some troops in their but it wasn't such a huge war? Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, I'm just trying to be sure.

  8. #8
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Bugg[/i]@Jan 31 2005, 10:06 PM
    [b] In 1861, how many was too many?

    To this day, the Civil War is still the deadliest in American history. [/b][/quote]
    [b][SIZE=3][color=red]The Battle Hymn of the Republic[/color][/SIZE][/b]

    [b][SIZE=3][color=red]By Julia Ward Howe[/color][/SIZE][/b]

    [quote][b]This hymn was born dur*ing the Amer*i*can ci*vil war, written in 1861 when Julia Ward Howe vis*it*ed a Un*ion Ar*my camp on the Po*to*mac Riv*er near Wash*ington DC. She heard the sol*diers sing*ing the song “John Brown’s Body,” and was tak*en with the strong march*ing beat. She wrote the words the next day:

    [i][color=blue]I awoke in the grey of the morn*ing, and as I lay wait*ing for dawn, the long lines of the de*sired po*em be*gan to en*twine them*selves in my mind, and I said to my*self, “I must get up and write these vers*es, lest I fall asleep and for*get them!” So I sprang out of bed and in the dim*ness found an old stump of a pen, which I re*mem*bered us*ing the day be*fore. I scrawled the vers*es al*most with*out look*ing at the p*aper.[/color][/i] ~ Julia Ward Howe[/b][/quote]

    Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
    He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
    He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
    His truth is marching on.

    [b](Chorus)[/b]
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    His truth is marching on

    I have seen Him in the fires of a hundred circling camps,
    They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
    I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps:
    His day is marching on.

    [b](Chorus)[/b]
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    His truth is marching on

    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
    "As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal;
    Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel,
    Since God is marching on."

    [b](Chorus)[/b]
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    His truth is marching on

    He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
    He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat:
    Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet!
    Our God is marching on.

    [b](Chorus)[/b]
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    His truth is marching on

    In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
    With a glory in his bosom that transfigures you and me:
    As he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
    While God is marching on.

    [b](Chorus)[/b]
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    His truth is marching on

    He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
    He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honour to the brave;
    So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
    Our God is marching on.

    [b](Chorus)[/b]
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    His truth is marching on

  9. #9
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Detroit, MI
    Posts
    1,753
    "Evil only triumphs when good men do nothing" -Edmund Burke



    . That's the way I look at the war in Iraq. I would be hard pressed to find an argument to keep a man in power that killed thousands of his own people. I can't really think of one reason. He gassed his own people, regularly threatened neighboring countries with war, plotted to assasinate one of our presidents, and if you honestly think Hussein has no ties with any terrorist organization whatsoever, you are kidding yourself.There is a British comedian named Eddie Izzard who actually hits the nail right on the head. He said "Stalin and Pol Pot killed thousands of their own people, and we're sort of fine with that. Hitler kills people next door and then people get Angry."

    Warfish, you make the argument that you would not waste one American life to bring freedom to anyone that didn't so desire it, and that is a decent argument. But when you live in a country that was ruled with as big an iron fist as Saddam ruled it, what chances do you really have of trying to change the leadership in the country. What chances do you have of defeating a man who has control of the entire army, and it just about every weapon available in the country? You don't have one. People in that country lived in constant fear of waking up one night and getting hauled off to jail for some trivial reason. Yes, we fought for our freedom here in the States. But prior to the revolution King George wasn't going around slaughtering and torturing thousands of his own people. We revolted because of taxation without representation. If these people so much as farted in the wrong direction they were arrested and killed.


    It is unfortunate that the U.S. has lost 1,400 troops. But people need to realize that we live in a world where countries too often look the other way with people like this. It was American blood that advanced the cause of freedom in World War I. And it was American blood that advanced the cause of freedom in World War II. Both wars, I might add, that the United States wanted nothing to do with at first, and did not start. Does anyone think we shouldn't have been in either of these wars? There are thousands of American graves in France because the rest of the world would rather appease tyrants than fight them. We live in a world that would rather see millions get systematically slaughtered than do anything about it. There is going to be relative peace in the world because the United States brings it. And in the end, that price is always going to come with American lives. There are 3,000 men, women, and children who died on 9/11 because terrorists wanted to destroy this country, so if it takes getting rid of a despot to try and discourage something like that from happening again, then that is the price we are going to have to pay.

  10. #10
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Come Back to NY[/i]@Jan 31 2005, 09:29 PM
    [b] Problem is you are putting blinders on...this is not just about Iraqi freedom it is about the long term fight against terrorism...how many people must make the ultimate sacrifice before we defeat terrorism? [/b][/quote]
    there is not and never has been any guaruntee that changing Iraq would prevent further terrorism.

    this is nothing but a theory...

    in all likelihood terrorism will never be defeated since it is a concept - you can't wage war on concepts and expect to win.

  11. #11
    note that no one has voted anything but "not a single american life" meanwhile we have already lost nearly 1500 for the cause of Iraqi freedom.

  12. #12
    Board Moderator
    Jets Insider VIP
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    State Location Here
    Posts
    8,245
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Warfish[/i]@Jan 31 2005, 08:56 PM
    [b] So I WOULD sacrifice American Lives for the cause of American safety. But I would not waste one single American life to free a people who refused to rise up and take the freedom some think they so desire. [/b][/quote]
    Some concept. So what you're saying is that the Civil War was a waste, and none of the hundreds of thousands of Yankee troops who died to (in part) end slavery were a complete waste? You know, because the slaves never took up arms en masse on their own to "rise up and take the freedom they so desire"?

    Sometimes the Iron Boot is just too freaking heavy, fish, and you have no chance on your own.

  13. #13
    the civil war wasn't really about freeing the slaves, it was about the economic future of this country - it's the same thing here - this war isn't really about freeing the Iraqis it's about the economic future of this country.

    my problem with this war is that no one is truthful about it - if they just called it the "war for oil" instead of this iraqi freedom bull**** i would see the logic and support 100%

    forced to choose i'd much rather have men dying for the right for the US to buy oil then for the right for Iraqis to live in freedom.

  14. #14
    Jets Insider VIP
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Posts
    31,408
    [quote][i]Originally posted by shakin318+Feb 1 2005, 10:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (shakin318 &#064; Feb 1 2005, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Warfish[/i]@Jan 31 2005, 08:56 PM
    [b] So I WOULD sacrifice American Lives for the cause of American safety. But I would not waste one single American life to free a people who refused to rise up and take the freedom some think they so desire. [/b][/quote]
    Some concept. So what you&#39;re saying is that the Civil War was a waste, and none of the hundreds of thousands of Yankee troops who died to (in part) end slavery were a complete waste? You know, because the slaves never took up arms en masse on their own to "rise up and take the freedom they so desire"?

    Sometimes the Iron Boot is just too freaking heavy, fish, and you have no chance on your own. [/b][/quote]
    Forget about the concept the statement is dead wrong....sadaam used chemical weapons on those who rose up against him after the &#39;91 Gulf War. Unfortunately we followed the UN and never finished the job.

  15. #15
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Bitonti - you are now looking for guarantees?? What color is the sky in your world? Has it ever occurred to you that there is no guarantee that your opinions or plans will work? I mean, get real....

  16. #16
    [quote][i]Originally posted by shakin318+Feb 1 2005, 10:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (shakin318 @ Feb 1 2005, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Warfish[/i]@Jan 31 2005, 08:56 PM
    [b] So I WOULD sacrifice American Lives for the cause of American safety. But I would not waste one single American life to free a people who refused to rise up and take the freedom some think they so desire. [/b][/quote]
    Some concept. So what you&#39;re saying is that the Civil War was a waste, and none of the hundreds of thousands of Yankee troops who died to (in part) end slavery were a complete waste? You know, because the slaves never took up arms en masse on their own to "rise up and take the freedom they so desire"?

    Sometimes the Iron Boot is just too freaking heavy, fish, and you have no chance on your own. [/b][/quote]
    Actually, they DID indeed rise up a number of times, in a number of places. Also, ending slavery was not a primary motivator of the North in the Civil War. In fact, the emancipation proclamation only freed slaves in the Confederate states, not the Union (where, if ending slavery was a primary goal, you would think the slaves would have already been freed, right?)

    You are attempting to use an unrelated and inappropriate reference to another conflict to defend your political position today. Sorry, but that simply doesn&#39;t equate.

    And as I said, I am ALL FOR a War on Terror, if we fight it like a war and not some hippy peace-fest. No more weak willed "Liberal" warfare, bringing American controled freedom and love and flowers to the masses.

    Get to the business of killing those who want to kill Americans.

  17. #17
    [quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Feb 1 2005, 10:37 AM
    [b] Bitonti - you are now looking for guarantees?? [/b][/quote]
    ill settle for a clearly defined goal.

  18. #18
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Posts
    3,408
    [quote][b]Warfish, you make the argument that you would not waste one American life to bring freedom to anyone that didn&#39;t so desire it, and that is a decent argument. But when you live in a country that was ruled with as big an iron fist as Saddam ruled it, what chances do you really have of trying to change the leadership in the country. What chances do you have of defeating a man who has control of the entire army, and it just about every weapon available in the country? You don&#39;t have one. People in that country lived in constant fear of waking up one night and getting hauled off to jail for some trivial reason. Yes, we fought for our freedom here in the States. But prior to the revolution King George wasn&#39;t going around slaughtering and torturing thousands of his own people. We revolted because of taxation without representation. If these people so much as farted in the wrong direction they were arrested and killed.
    [/b][/quote]

    Sounds like the present day US.

  19. #19
    [quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Feb 1 2005, 01:37 PM
    [b] [quote][b]Warfish, you make the argument that you would not waste one American life to bring freedom to anyone that didn&#39;t so desire it, and that is a decent argument. But when you live in a country that was ruled with as big an iron fist as Saddam ruled it, what chances do you really have of trying to change the leadership in the country. What chances do you have of defeating a man who has control of the entire army, and it just about every weapon available in the country? You don&#39;t have one. People in that country lived in constant fear of waking up one night and getting hauled off to jail for some trivial reason. Yes, we fought for our freedom here in the States. But prior to the revolution King George wasn&#39;t going around slaughtering and torturing thousands of his own people. We revolted because of taxation without representation. If these people so much as farted in the wrong direction they were arrested and killed.
    [/b][/quote]

    Sounds like the present day US. [/b][/quote]
    Actually, it doesn&#39;t.

    You don&#39;t fear being locked up or arrested for no reason and you know it.

    What you should fear is that the wholesale farce of post World War II liberalism has up and died, leaving your Democratic Party in shambles. That should scare you.

    It scares me. They might come up with good ideas and get me to switch party allegiance and I, for one, fear change.

  20. #20
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Posts
    3,408
    [quote][i]Originally posted by sackdance+Feb 1 2005, 05:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (sackdance @ Feb 1 2005, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Section109Row15[/i]@Feb 1 2005, 01:37 PM
    [b] [quote][b]Warfish, you make the argument that you would not waste one American life to bring freedom to anyone that didn&#39;t so desire it, and that is a decent argument. But when you live in a country that was ruled with as big an iron fist as Saddam ruled it, what chances do you really have of trying to change the leadership in the country. What chances do you have of defeating a man who has control of the entire army, and it just about every weapon available in the country? You don&#39;t have one. People in that country lived in constant fear of waking up one night and getting hauled off to jail for some trivial reason. Yes, we fought for our freedom here in the States. But prior to the revolution King George wasn&#39;t going around slaughtering and torturing thousands of his own people. We revolted because of taxation without representation. If these people so much as farted in the wrong direction they were arrested and killed.
    [/b][/quote]

    Sounds like the present day US. [/b][/quote]
    Actually, it doesn&#39;t.

    You don&#39;t fear being locked up or arrested for no reason and you know it.

    What you should fear is that the wholesale farce of post World War II liberalism has up and died, leaving your Democratic Party in shambles. That should scare you.

    It scares me. They might come up with good ideas and get me to switch party allegiance and I, for one, fear change. [/b][/quote]
    Actually I do feer being locked up for no reason. I was arrested last summer and locked in jail for 6 hours for having a F&#39;ing beer my neighbor handed me in my front lawn.

    Also here is DC it is common for bystanders to get roped off, hogtied with zipties, and put in jail for being in the vicinity of a protest.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us