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Thread: Dems Mark 1 Year Anniversary Of Abu Ghraib

  1. #21
    [QUOTE=Warfish]My point was that Iraq is not a War bit, and you know it. [/QUOTE]


    of course I know it, how many times have you heard me say the last legitimate war was WWII since it was actually declared by congress?

    the point of my original post on this thread was that Bush stood up there and implied that the hard part of Iraq was behind us. He was dead *** wrong.

  2. #22
    [QUOTE=bitonti]of course I know it, how many times have you heard me say the last legitimate war was WWII since it was actually declared by congress?

    the point of my original post on this thread was that Bush stood up there and implied that the hard part of Iraq was behind us. He was dead *** wrong.[/QUOTE]

    Implied? Well, maybe he did. Does that actually change anything?

  3. #23
    [QUOTE=Warfish]Implied? Well, maybe he did. Does that actually change anything?[/QUOTE]

    well even in May 2003 it wasn't possible for my opinion of George Bush to get any lower so i guess not.

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=Warfish]Implied? Well, maybe he did. Does that actually change anything?[/QUOTE]


    He did?! Then why is it that he was always saying that there's still a hard road ahead? Why is it that I knew it was going to continue to be tough? Who could have possibly misunderstood that?

  5. #25
    [QUOTE=Enrique Pallazzo]He did?! Then why is it that he was always saying that there's still a hard road ahead? [/QUOTE]

    if you believe the president, every 3 months the US "turns a corner" in Iraq - people are still getting brutally killed every day but hey we are turning all these corners!!

  6. #26
    [QUOTE=bitonti]if you believe the president, every 3 months the US "turns a corner" in Iraq - people are still getting brutally killed every day but hey we are turning all these corners!![/QUOTE]


    That's not what I said. Bush was always very upfront about the situation still being a challenge. I don't think he has ever sugar-coated anything. You would be all over him whether he was telling the truth or lying. You'd find SOMETHING wrong about what he said. The libs have been twisting and turning his words around (when he needs in the "messed up speech" department) to make him out as a liar. I think that actually harms the men and women that are fighting for us over there.

  7. #27
    [QUOTE=Enrique Pallazzo] I think that actually harms the men and women that are fighting for us over there.[/QUOTE]

    Enrique im a bottom line sorta guy. Bottom line it's a money pit of the worst sort, sucking in billions of funds for - at best - intangible gains. There are reasons why the army can't meet recruiting goals and why many people coming home won't re-enlist, and it's not because liberals are twisting the words of the President. Talk about harming the troops, no one harmed the troops more than the President that says "bring em on" plunked these people down into an unwinnable scenario without a realistic goal, without proper equiptment and without an exit strategy. You can't rebuild until the people stop resisting and that's not happening anytime soon. I always support our troops but the truth is that no one hurts the troops MORE than the President.

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=bitonti]You can't rebuild until the people stop resisting and that's not happening anytime soon.[/QUOTE]

    I agree and disagree with a lot of that, but the one thing that stands out here is that the Iraqi people are NOT resisting. They are helping us. They WANT this. I feel that this is being SO underreported. There really IS good news over there and I DO think we're making progress. I know you've agreed with this as well. No one ever said this was going to be easy.

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=Enrique Pallazzo] I agree and disagree with a lot of that, but the one thing that stands out here is that the Iraqi people are NOT resisting. They are helping us. They WANT this. I feel that this is being SO underreported. [/QUOTE]

    some are, some aren't - who are setting up these car bombs, the car bomb fairy? a couple weeks ago 150 Shi-ites (helping the US) were captured by Sunni (hating the US)... and they have since dredged 50+ bodies of these hostages out of the Tigris. We can't make a blanket statement about "the Iraqi people" because frankly there is no such thing - there are 3 sub-divisions and only 2 of em want us there. The other 1 will kill themselves and everyone else to get us out of there.


    [QUOTE=Enrique Pallazzo] No one ever said this was going to be easy.[/QUOTE]

    Cheney was on TV talking about how the Iraqi people would greet us with flowers in the streets, and they would practically rebuild themselves!

  10. #30
    [QUOTE=bitonti]some are, some aren't - who are setting up these car bombs, the car bomb fairy? a couple weeks ago 150 Shi-ites (helping the US) were captured by Sunni (hating the US)... and they have since dredged 50+ bodies of these hostages out of the Tigris. We can't make a blanket statement about "the Iraqi people" because frankly there is no such thing - there are 3 sub-divisions and only 2 of em want us there. The other 1 will kill themselves and everyone else to get us out of there.




    Cheney was on TV talking about how the Iraqi people would greet us with flowers in the streets, and they would practically rebuild themselves![/QUOTE]


    You're right. We can't make that blanket statement. I stand corrected. I just feel that the media has continually harped on the one group that doesn't want us there. As for the car bombers... most of these insurgents aren't even FROM Iraq.

    I don't remember Cheney ever saying that... not that I doubt you at all. When we tore down that statue you have to admit the Iraqi's really were celebrating in the streets and welcoming us with... ok with banging shoes on Saddam, but maybe they didn't realize our culture liked flowers so much. They WERE afterall living in hell under a brutal dictator.

  11. #31
    [QUOTE=Enrique Pallazzo] As for the car bombers... most of these insurgents aren't even FROM Iraq.[/QUOTE]

    well ok where are they from? couldn't possibly be from Saudi or Pakistan, these guys are our ALLIES in the war against Terror... right?

    [QUOTE=Enrique Pallazzo]
    I don't remember Cheney ever saying that... not that I doubt you at all. When we tore down that statue you have to admit the Iraqi's really were celebrating in the streets and welcoming us with... ok with banging shoes on Saddam, but maybe they didn't realize our culture liked flowers so much. They WERE afterall living in hell under a brutal dictator.[/QUOTE]

    before I get to cheney we should all know that facts about the statue toppling - it is possible that the US Armed forces topped that statue, and it was not a spontanous reaction -

    [QUOTE]U.S. military, not Iraqis, behind toppling of statue

    By David Zucchino
    Los Angeles Times

    The U.S. Army's internal study of the war in Iraq criticizes some efforts by its own psychological operations (PSYOP) units, but one spur-of-the-moment effort last year produced the most memorable image of the invasion.

    While the April 9, 2003, toppling of a statue of Saddam in Firdos Square in Baghdad seemed from TV images to be the spontaneous work of joyous Iraqis, a new report indicates U.S. Marines initiated the work and an Army psychological operations unit encouraged the civilians to participate.
    Associated Press library photo

    As the Iraqi regime was collapsing on April 9, 2003, U.S. Marines converged on Firdos Square in central Baghdad, site of an enormous statue of Saddam Hussein. [B]It was a Marine colonel — not joyous Iraqi civilians, as was widely assumed from the TV images — who decided to topple the statue, the Army report said. And it was a quick-thinking Army PSYOP team that made it appear to be a spontaneous Iraqi undertaking.

    After the colonel — who was not named in the report — selected the statue as a "target of opportunity," the PSYOP team used loudspeakers to encourage Iraqi civilians to assist, according to an account by a PSYOP team member.

    But Marines had draped an American flag over the statue's face. "God bless them, but we were thinking from PSYOP school that this was just bad news," the PSYOP member wrote in the report. "We didn't want to look like an occupation force, and some of the Iraqis were saying, 'No, we want an Iraqi flag!' "

    Someone produced an Iraqi flag, and a PSYOP sergeant quickly replaced the American flag. Ultimately, a Marine recovery vehicle toppled the statue with a chain, but the effort appeared to be Iraqi-inspired because the PSYOP team had managed to pack the vehicle with cheering Iraqi children[/B][url]http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2004/Jul/05/mn/mn03a.html[/url][/QUOTE]

    is David Zuccino a liar? hard to say but im sure many here will say so- just as they labeled Scott Ritter a liar when he said Iraq had no WMD.


    as for cheney

    [url]http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3080244/default.htm[/url]

    this is what he said - to be fair the flowers comment was actually from Ahmad Chalabi - a man who supplied all sorts of false information to the White House - not Cheney - that's my bad.

    [QUOTE]VICE PRES. CHENEY: I think things have gotten so bad inside Iraq from the standpoint of the Iraqi people, my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators.

    MR. RUSSERT: If your analysis is not correct and we’re not treated as liberators but as conquerors and the Iraqis begin to resist particularly in Baghdad, do you think the American people are prepared for a long, costly and bloody battle with significant American casualties?

    VICE PRES. CHENEY: Well, I don’t think it’s unlikely to unfold that way, Tim, because I really do believe we will be greeted as liberators. I’ve talked with a lot of Iraqis in the last several months myself, had them to the White House. The president and I have met with various groups and individuals, people who’ve devoted their lives from the outside to try and change things inside of Iraq.

    The read we get on the people of Iraq is there’s no question but what they want to get rid of Saddam Hussein and they will welcome as liberators the United States when we come to do that. [/QUOTE]

    also in this link Wolfowitz said:

    [QUOTE]“We’re dealing with a country that can really finance its own econstruction, and relatively soon. The oil revenues of that country could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years.” [/QUOTE]

    Cheney also said that we wouldn't need hundreds of thousands of troops -

    all in all the basic point is this administration led the nation to believe Iraq would be a walk in the park - they also led us to believe that it would pay for itself, and most importantly that the USA was under DIRECT NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT by Saddams WMD - all three of these statements have since proven false.

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=Warfish]My point was that Iraq is not a War bit, and you know it. It is a Nation Building Police Action. Having a certain number of soldiers someplace, or a certain number of deaths does not constitute a "War". War is what it is, and Iraq TODAY is not a War.

    Say it with me:

    N..A..T..I..O..N....B..U..I..L..D..I..N..G....P..O..L..I..C..E....A..C..T..I..O..N[/QUOTE]


    I don't know, the seige on Fellujia seemed pretty much like a war to me!

    Not sure where you're from, but a week-long assualt on an entire city doesn't really fall into my definition of "policing action".

  13. #33
    [QUOTE=bitonti]well ok where are they from? couldn't possibly be from Saudi or Pakistan, these guys are our ALLIES in the war against Terror... right?

    before I get to cheney we should all know that facts about the statue toppling - it is possible that the US Armed forces topped that statue, and it was not a spontanous reaction -

    as for cheney

    [url]http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3080244/default.htm[/url]

    this is what he said - to be fair the flowers comment was actually from Ahmad Chalabi - a man who supplied all sorts of false information to the White House - not Cheney - that's my bad.

    Cheney also said that we wouldn't need hundreds of thousands of troops -

    all in all the basic point is this administration led the nation to believe Iraq would be a walk in the park - they also led us to believe that it would pay for itself, and most importantly that the USA was under DIRECT NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT by Saddams WMD - all three of these statements have since proven false.[/QUOTE]


    Well, with the Saudi's and Pakistanis you're making a similar generalization like we made with the Iraqi's. I'm not saying those governements are squeaky clean... far from it, but we can't say that they ALL aren't allies.
    As for the statue... I never said that we weren't the ones to topple the statue. It was the aftermath of the statue that was spontaneous and joyous. Watching those people celebrate in the streets was emotional and inpirational.
    As for Cheney and the rest of the administration... there were some serious miscalculations. I'll admit that. But I don't think they purposefully led us to believe something that they didn't. There are MANY, including yourself I presume, that will strongly disagree with this, but that's MY opinion. The WMDs I'm still convinced were there at some point. I don't think Hussein was a complete idiot. He was brilliant. He did SOMETHING with those things and that scares me the most. OK, maybe I'm living in my own Utopia, but I honestly don't think I'm far from the truth whatever it really is.

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