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Thread: I bet if there was some OIL in New Orleans....

  1. #1
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    I bet if there was some OIL in New Orleans....

    That Mr. Bush would have had that funding passed RIGHT AWAY for aid to the people down there. Not only that but he would have had Thousands of troops in there in the blink of an eye.

    What a F'ing joke that I must watch people laid out dead on the street, floating next to children. Great priorities Bush, you have failed since day 1.

    Whats taking the National Guard so long to get thier asses in there? They knew A catagory 5 hurricane was bearing down on a city that was 8 feet below sea level, I saw the catastrophies predicted on the news over 24 hours in advance. Now, a spokesman for the National Guard Unit said it caught them off guard?....LOL.

    I'm sick to my stomache with this POS President, and thats why I got out of the military 2 years ago. I didnt like what I saw and how things were being run by that moron.

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    It's not funding or supplies that are lacking. There are plenty of both down there. The logistics of getting the supplies to where they are needed is an unprecedented and almost unimaginable challenge -- the city is under water. There's virtually nowhere to stage. This has nothing to do with Bush, but as long as you've decided to bring politics into this issue, let me ask you a question: How many of those looters you see on TV do you think are Republicans?

    The Democrat Governor of Lousiana is whimpering cluelessly on national TV, while the Republican Governor of Mississippi takes the bull by the horns.

    Yeah, see how sucky and stupid it is to bring politics into this horrible tragedy? I feel dirty to do it, but f-that -- I'm sick of the knee-jerk "everything's Bush's fault" garbage I see on this board.

    ps: As to the title of your topic, do you realize that that area of the Gulf is far more important to the oil industry than ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE U.S.? Clues are pretty cool. You should get one.
    Last edited by shakin318; 09-02-2005 at 12:40 AM.

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    Great job, so you see blacks looting in the street and right away they're all Democrats.....great assumption. I NEVER come on these political boards because of people like you, but I had to show my opinion and thats what i'm doing. I served in the military honorably and I know what goes on. How bout yourself? End of discussion. I"m not coming back on here to check what you or anyone else writes, so save your breath.

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    [QUOTE=Vinny025]Great job, so you see blacks looting in the street and right away they're all Democrats.....great assumption. I NEVER come on these political boards because of people like you, but I had to show my opinion and thats what i'm doing. I served in the military honorably and I know what goes on. How bout yourself? End of discussion. I"m not coming back on here to check what you or anyone else writes, so save your breath.[/QUOTE]

    End of your discussion perhaps. And who said anything about blacks? Excuse me for exposing the uninformed ridiculousness of your post. Too bad you got offended by the purposely equally ridiculous examples in my reply. ps Thanks for your service to the country. And for telling us about it in every post.

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    hey vinchenzo hows the bambino?

    :D

    No security in Bagdahd also No security in New Orleans. Hope in both are at dip in the road, to put it gently.

    I don't agree with everything Vinny025 (and this Krugman op-ed) say but both are pretty scathing rebukes and I agree with the essential points.

    NO the gov't cannot stop hurricanes. It's job is to protect it's people. They work for us, and that includes (included?) new orleans.

    The gov't is supposed to perform essential functions.

    Unlike 9-11, which was remotely possible, the New Orleans hurricane was a "planned for" catastrophe.

    The gov't knew about this possibility and they botched their essential function: providing Law and Order here in America, in the wake of the disruption.

    New Orleans is done for about 2-4 Months maybe more. No the gov't can't stop a hurricane but it can provide resources.

    Also let's examine cold hard facts:

    -FEMA and flood control got gutted in Bush Administration - hurricane relief ??? what hurricane relief?

    -tax cuts! sorry no money to repair the sinking levees! cmon.

    -a great chunk of Miss/Lou Natl Guard (and alot of equipment are in the Middle East)

    -dead bodies in the streets? red paint X's on the houses with dead? looting? raping in the Superdome? forgotten refugees?

    I personally hate to hear about human suffering like this in our own backyard.

    at a deeper level It's like dawn of the dead.

    The end of human civilization but only in New Orleans.

    cmon the last thing we should accept as citizens is that the USA has starving and thirsty refugees.

    This is all horrible human tragedy but also unacceptable human tragedy. They could have gotten people out of there sooner with more preparedness.

    but even more so if you are an oil man president the least you could do is pay attention to the infrastructure.

    Take the human tragedy away it's an economic, societial clusterf--k and we will be reading about it for months, years.

    [QUOTE]
    A Can't-Do Government

    By PAUL KRUGMAN
    Published: September 2, 2005

    Before 9/11 the Federal Emergency Management Agency listed the three most likely catastrophic disasters facing America: a terrorist attack on New York, a major earthquake in San Francisco and a hurricane strike on New Orleans. "The New Orleans hurricane scenario," The Houston Chronicle wrote in December 2001, "may be the deadliest of all." It described a potential catastrophe very much like the one now happening.

    So why were New Orleans and the nation so unprepared? After 9/11, hard questions were deferred in the name of national unity, then buried under a thick coat of whitewash. This time, we need accountability.

    First question: Why have aid and security taken so long to arrive? Katrina hit five days ago - and it was already clear by last Friday that Katrina could do immense damage along the Gulf Coast. Yet the response you'd expect from an advanced country never happened. Thousands of Americans are dead or dying, not because they refused to evacuate, but because they were too poor or too sick to get out without help - and help wasn't provided. Many have yet to receive any help at all.

    There will and should be many questions about the response of state and local governments; in particular, couldn't they have done more to help the poor and sick escape? But the evidence points, above all, to a stunning lack of both preparation and urgency in the federal government's response.

    Even military resources in the right place weren't ordered into action. "On Wednesday," said an editorial in The Sun Herald in Biloxi, Miss., "reporters listening to horrific stories of death and survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and performing calisthenics. Playing basketball and performing calisthenics!"

    Maybe administration officials believed that the local National Guard could keep order and deliver relief. But many members of the National Guard and much of its equipment - including high-water vehicles - are in Iraq. "The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission," a Louisiana Guard officer told reporters several weeks ago.

    Second question: Why wasn't more preventive action taken? After 2003 the Army Corps of Engineers sharply slowed its flood-control work, including work on sinking levees. "The corps," an Editor and Publisher article says, citing a series of articles in The Times-Picayune in New Orleans, "never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security - coming at the same time as federal tax cuts - was the reason for the strain."

    In 2002 the corps' chief resigned, reportedly under threat of being fired, after he criticized the administration's proposed cuts in the corps' budget, including flood-control spending.

    Third question: Did the Bush administration destroy FEMA's effectiveness? The administration has, by all accounts, treated the emergency management agency like an unwanted stepchild, leading to a mass exodus of experienced professionals.

    Last year James Lee Witt, who won bipartisan praise for his leadership of the agency during the Clinton years, said at a Congressional hearing: "I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded. I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared."

    I don't think this is a simple tale of incompetence. [B]The reason the military wasn't rushed in to help along the Gulf Coast is, I believe, the same reason nothing was done to stop looting after the fall of Baghdad. Flood control was neglected for the same reason our troops in Iraq didn't get adequate armor.[/B]

    At a fundamental level, I'd argue, our current leaders just aren't serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don't like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on preventive measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice.

    Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk.

    So America, once famous for its can-do attitude, now has a can't-do government that makes excuses instead of doing its job. And while it makes those excuses, Americans are dying. [/QUOTE]

    by the way the US gov't is sending 3000 Army troops to provide security and crowd control, even though it's technically against federal law for the army to provide law enforcement.

    Obviously more men are needed there but it doesn't sound good from a democracy perspective. But we don't follow geneva convention, laws of war, why would we follow the US federal law? It's all been thrown out the window.
    Last edited by bitonti; 09-02-2005 at 01:11 AM.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]by the way the US gov't is sending 3000 Army troops to provide security and crowd control, even though it's technically against federal law for the army to provide law enforcement.

    Obviously more men are needed there but it doesn't sound good from a democracy perspective. But we don't follow geneva convention, laws of war, why would we follow the US federal law? It's all been thrown out the window.[/QUOTE]

    Great job Matt. Damned if he do and damned if he don't. You are a master debater.

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    [QUOTE=shakin318]Great job Matt. Damned if he do and damned if he don't. You are a master debater.[/QUOTE]

    i just want to present all sides!

    for the record I am PRO sending in the military. It has to be done. It's just a damn shame that it has to be done.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]i just want to present all sides!

    for the record I am PRO sending in the military. It has to be done. It's just a damn shame that it has to be done.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I agree. Just had to give style props.

    I can't believe what I'm seeing in New Orleans -- that city is a memory now. The human suffering is incomprehensible, and I can't imagine being among those people still waiting for food, water, shelter, answers...but the knee-jerk blame Bush garbage is sadly predictable yet no less infuriating. I feel bad for slamming Vinny, he's always been decent, but this sh!t is pointless. There are plenty of Federally-provided resources and personnel in the area -- but the disaster area is 90,000 square miles. Logistics of getting what needs to go where it needs to go in New Orleans is an unprecedented nightmare -- the entire city is under water. Huge staging areas are critical for such an operation, and there aren't any available. Communications infrastructure is non-existent, and on and on. No one knows if any work on the levees that Bush's cuts supposedly eliminated would have prevented the disaster -- New Orleans has always set the "high water mark" in their preparations for a Category 3 storm...so who knows if the work had been done whether it would have held.

    It's a national tragedy that's making me sick -- yet no one hesitates to use the opportunity to slam the President. So I rightfully slam back

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    shakin that's all well and good. And let's take the human element away for a second - not because it's not tragic, just cause it's messy to deal with.

    looking at this from a different perspective,

    nationally this disruption could lead to tough economic consequences.

    Bush is an oil man - isn't his job to make sure the oil keeps flowing? Perhaps making New Orleans cat 4 or 5 resistant is a nice precautionary measure? (as far as I can tell that would be possible, since they are talking about it happening in the future).

    Even if the levees don't protect the people it just protects the refineries... isn't it the job of gov't to secure these things that keep the economy running?

    Shakin you know me and my bike riding ways and my alternative fuel interest but i'm here saying what about the OIL? hey if that's your strategy, if oil and gas are the game plan, so be it I can play ball.

    Should the US Federal gov't have been concerned with such a major chunk of US infrastructure?

    It seems to me like they had other priorities and simply hoped for the best.

    no question, this is an indictment of the whole system but since GOP controls the whole system - who is gonna do the right thing for America? I honestly don't know.

    rregardless of party I hope someone comes along that thinks about big picture at least a little.

    with gas prices rising in general this was thing that has changed everything economically. Gas futures are through the roof. the oil companies are making huge ridiculous massive profits.

    Maybe Bush did look out for people, and for oil - but the citizens get the burden. Ps- that 10 Billion emergency spending bill - one of many to come no doubt? Tacked right on to the deficit.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]shakin that's all well and good. And let's take the human element away for a second - not because it's not tragic, just cause it's messy to deal with.

    looking at this from a different perspective,

    nationally this disruption could lead to tough economic consequences.

    Bush is an oil man - isn't his job to make sure the oil keeps flowing? Perhaps making New Orleans cat 4 or 5 resistant is a nice precautionary measure? (as far as I can tell that would be possible, since they are talking about it happening in the future).

    Even if the levees don't protect the people it just protects the refineries... isn't it the job of gov't to secure these things that keep the economy running?

    Shakin you know me and my bike riding ways and my alternative fuel interest but i'm here saying what about the OIL? hey if that's your strategy, if oil and gas are the game plan, so be it I can play ball.

    Should the US Federal gov't have been concerned with such a major chunk of US infrastructure?

    It seems to me like they had other priorities and simply hoped for the best.

    no question, this is an indictment of the whole system but since GOP controls the whole system - who is gonna do the right thing for America? I honestly don't know.

    rregardless of party I hope someone comes along that thinks about big picture at least a little.

    with gas prices rising in general this was thing that has changed everything economically. Gas futures are through the roof. the oil companies are making huge ridiculous massive profits.

    Maybe Bush did look out for people, and for oil - but the citizens get the burden. Ps- that 10 Billion emergency spending bill - one of many to come no doubt? Tacked right on to the deficit.[/QUOTE]

    Good points. But your points made me realize one indisputable fact: If Bush had spent the billions of dollars necessary to make the area (and its refineries) safe, I'd probably be sitting on some other thread reading your posts about how "the evil idiot Bush spent our tax dollars protecting his filthy evil oil interests in the Gulf."

    "[I]And you know this.[/I]"

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    Excuse me while I rant

    This is a horrible tragedy but there are some points not mentioned, I used to live in New Orleans, it is a run down, falling apart, dirty, racially divided ,violent city. This place needed massive help before this tragedey like most of our inner cities.

    Tonight I am ashamed to be an American, Those pictures looked like a third world somalia state. Our people should never be dying from lack of water and dehydration.

    I dont blame the politicians but the people, our country needs to wake up! Many of our cities are ripe with poverty, lack of education, crime etc. etc. The Repubs who are in power of all three branches and all they push for is more and more and more tax breaks there is a reason why we are taxed! To live in a wonderful safe society.

    I am sick to death of hearing the right wing and the other ultra patriots scream horray america is the best county! RAh! Rah! Rah! Our country has serious problems!!!!!!! If we are the best country then why do we have the highest incarceration rates of the 1st world, why do we have the largest amount of violence among are cities than the rest of the 1st world, we have the highes rates of child poverty in the 1st world. Over 50% of children in New Orleans live in poverty, We have the highest levels of income inequality than the rest of the 1st world. We have over 50 million people w/ out health insurance!
    Stop cutting taxes and start addressing these problems. There are things to be done but you need resources to do it. Ante up Americans and quit whining about taxes. It benifits us all to live in a great society so ante up.

    To bring this rant of a post back to the tradgedy in New Orleans, the reason I would argue that we are seeing the looting, civil unrest and violence is evident of the state of the city before the tradegy. Nobody has the right to steal and take advantage of this situation to steal but if u have nothing and live with nothing then perhaps it is "easy for them to justify" commiting these crimes because the oppurtunity presented itself. It does not make it right and I am not justifying there behavior but as with anything there is a reason behind it or better stated cause and effect. I honestly do not blame the people looting for food, water and medicine for survival! I would do the same in those circumstances and would be kickin in doors as well.

    I am frustrated with our country and the course it is heading, "we have money for wars but cant feed the poor"-2pac

    As the deficits rise and rise, more of our soldiers die in Iraq which I remind you was a war based on complete incorrect information, more civilians die in Iraq, oil prices sky rocket, the borders are wide open, more of our people in poverty, education budgets slashed, all you repubs want to do is cut taxes and freak out about "Jesus" in public buildings and schools and freak out if men want to kiss each other legally.
    Dont get me wrong the Democrats dont offer any solutions either! But at least we acknowledge that these problems exist and dont just follow like sheeps parroting we are the best, we are free. blah blah blah.

    I know this post will be viciously attacked and dont really care but I am sick an extremely frustrated and ashamed to be an American tonight after I see the state of lives in New Orleans and the state of our country.
    Repubs control all aspects of the federal govmt, you guys are doing great!
    Time for a change perhaps?

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    Anyway you look at this it comes out looking extremely bad for Bush and his boys. This tragic event will be added to his resume and it doesn't matter if it is right or wrong. He has failed to intercede with the "booming" increases in gasoline pricing and the population will look at it as he being part of the problem. The war in Iraq, gasoline prices, the economy, and now this horrible tragedy spell doom for the Republicans in the next presidential elections.

    On the subject of racist reporting I found these items:
    A black kid looting:

    [url]http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/ladm10208301530[/url]

    A white couple finding:

    [url]http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/photos_ts_afp/050830071810_shxwaoma_photo1[/url]


    Sad isn't it.

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    Ashamed to be an American? I'm ashamed that you've taken the contextual liberty to invent a term like "1st world". Historically, it's - Old World, Europe; New World, Americas; Third World, everywhere else. Later, great swaths of South and Central America were unofficially incorporated into the Third World as the other terms have largely fallen into disuse.

    I was ashamed of you again when I had to read this: [I]"we have money for wars but cant feed the poor"-2pac[/I]

    Are you out of your mind? Have you seen how unabashedly fat poor people are? In the ghettoes, in the doublewides - doesn't matter. If U NeeD the mUSiK of 2PAC 2 fiLL u with knowledge, then that's your problem. But don't regurgitate victimology up in here and expect a head nod and some polite golf clapping. I ain't havin' it.

    Whatever happened to 2pac, anyway? He was so real.

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    The Bottom Line:

    09/11/01: Republican state Governor and Republican city Mayor took charge.

    08/29/05: Democratic state Governor and Democratic city Mayor have no clue as to what's going on.

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    [QUOTE=Vinny025]That Mr. Bush would have had that funding passed RIGHT AWAY for aid to the people down there. Not only that but he would have had Thousands of troops in there in the blink of an eye.

    What a F'ing joke that I must watch people laid out dead on the street, floating next to children. Great priorities Bush, you have failed since day 1.

    Whats taking the National Guard so long to get thier asses in there? They knew A catagory 5 hurricane was bearing down on a city that was 8 feet below sea level, I saw the catastrophies predicted on the news over 24 hours in advance. Now, a spokesman for the National Guard Unit said it caught them off guard?....LOL.

    I'm sick to my stomache with this POS President, and thats why I got out of the military 2 years ago. I didnt like what I saw and how things were being run by that moron.[/QUOTE]

    Intersting question.....guess you are not aware probably the biggest production area of domestic oil sits just miles off the coast of NO....

    [QUOTE]I dont blame the politicians but the people, our country needs to wake up! Many of our cities are ripe with poverty, lack of education, crime etc. etc. The Repubs who are in power of all three branches and all they push for is more and more and more tax breaks there is a reason why we are taxed! To live in a wonderful safe society.

    I am sick to death of hearing the right wing and the other ultra patriots scream horray america is the best county! RAh! Rah! Rah! Our country has serious problems!!!!!!! If we are the best country then why do we have the highest incarceration rates of the 1st world, why do we have the largest amount of violence among are cities than the rest of the 1st world, we have the highes rates of child poverty in the 1st world. Over 50% of children in New Orleans live in poverty, We have the highest levels of income inequality than the rest of the 1st world. We have over 50 million people w/ out health insurance! [/QUOTE]

    meanwhile, what party has controlled and presently control NO????

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    [QUOTE=shakin318]Good points. But your points made me realize one indisputable fact: If Bush had spent the billions of dollars necessary to make the area (and its refineries) safe, I'd probably be sitting on some other thread reading your posts about how "the evil idiot Bush spent our tax dollars protecting his filthy evil oil interests in the Gulf."

    "[I]And you know this.[/I]"[/QUOTE]

    DING! DING! DING!

    A Winner!! :yes:

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    [QUOTE=Piper]DING! DING! DING!

    A Winner!! :yes:[/QUOTE]


    yeah and if Kerry got 1.5% of voting Americans to change their mind, and HE was in charge what would you say about his job protecting the nation if the same scenario unfolded?

    Piper, Shakin would you be quite so munificent and accepting of a piss poor job?

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    Vinny - your initial post in this thread was possibly the dumbest post I have ever seen written here and I've been posting here regularly for two years.

    Are you seriously blaming George Bush for the people killed by Katrina?

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    [QUOTE=glennobr]Stop cutting taxes and start addressing these problems. There are things to be done but you need resources to do it. Ante up Americans and quit whining about taxes. It benifits us all to live in a great society so ante up.
    [/QUOTE]

    Ante up? ANTE UP?!!

    I pay over $10,000 a year in property taxes alone. Combined my wife and I pay roughly $40,000 a year in state and federal income taxes. We pay 8 percent sales tax on virtually everything we buy to support ourselves, our two kids and our home...and you have the frickin ignorance and nerve to say "ANTE UP?"

    Move out of mommy and daddy's basement, get a real job, buy a home, start raising a family, and then come back here and tell me to ante up.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]yeah and if Kerry got 1.5% of voting Americans to change their mind, and HE was in charge what would you say about his job protecting the nation if the same scenario unfolded?

    Piper, Shakin would you be quite so munificent and accepting of a piss poor job?[/QUOTE]
    Yet again you lump me into the "I love Bush" crowd, in spite of the times I have repeatedly stted my displease with him and my agreement that he was simply the lesser of two evils.

    But face it. NO as a city and LA as a state have known and ignored this omnipresent danger for decades while enjoying the fruits of having a city that received incredible amounts of income due to tourism and industry.

    Laying this at the Presidents feet is laughable even for you.

    One thing that Bush did right is not folding to the incessant whining of Chuck Schumer to release oil reserves simply to manipulate prices when Katrina is the perfect example of what those reserve are for.

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