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Thread: Amd Answer for Post-Katrina Costs...and for Welfare too?

  1. #1

    Amd Answer for Post-Katrina Costs...and for Welfare too?

    Costs for Post-Katrina clean-up and recovery is now being estimated at 200+ Billion of American Taxpayer Money. Republican or Democrat, the trend these days is to a Welfare State that bails out everyone (Katrina) and everything (Airlines) on a pretty regular basis.

    Well, I have one thoery that I'd like to run by my very intelligent friends hee on the forum.

    Assuming that the American Welfare State is now set in stone (i.e. the U.S. will forever on have the aspect of Socialism that dictates Govt. funds are used/given to the unfortunate/lazy/unemployed/naturally devastated, etc.) I know some will claim this is a poor assumption, but I have seen and heard nothing from either part that would indicate that the Welfare State mentallity is going anywhere anytime soon, so it's the only assumption I can make.

    So here is my psudo-solution: The REAL New Deal

    First....Welfare is completely Federalized, i.e. no more State Welfare. States are notorious for simply giving massive handouts and asking nothing in return. A Federalized system can be standardized and more efficient, given the rest of the plan here.

    Second....No Benifits to anyone unwilling to work. I.e. Benifits are given only for those who will work for the Govt. during the time they receive benifits. Once they get another job, they stop working for the Govt. and stop getting benifits. Obviously, much of the work WILL be manual labor, but the Administration (clerical, etc) will also require many many jobs too.

    Third....use this massive (t least to start) labor pool to "Get Stuff Done". Need a new interstate highway, fine, use the Welfare pool. Need to rebuild New Orleans, fine, use the (now massive) Wlefare pool from that state/area. Put these people to work. If they want handouts, they MUST earn them by providing a service.

    Fourth...do you best to give these folks some minimal training while they "Welfare Work". Even if all it is is a lesson on how to swing a hammer, it can help them get work afterwards.

    Fifth....Start teaching about personal responsabillity. Look, if you CHOOSE to have 9 kids, and that ios why you cannot work, then you made bad choices in life, and YOU must figure a way to help yourself. It is NOT the Govt. job to fix that kind of situation. Sorry, but it isn't. Work, or no benifits.

    Sixth....look at what the country needs today, and use this labor pool for it. HYdro-Electric Dams? Build them. Refineries? Build them. Use the Welfare state as a tool, instead of just as a hand-out brigade.

    I know the drawbacks here.....lack of education or training among the Welfare pool being #1. I don;t have a great answer, but I am adamant that this Nation must get SOMETHING out of it's ongoing "investment" in the Wlefare State, and now in the New Orleans Refugees. If they want to rebuild, pay them, but make THEM do the rebuilding.

    So, how looney am I this time guys?

  2. #2
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    [QUOTE]Fifth....Start teaching about personal responsabillity. Look, if you CHOOSE to have 9 kids, and that ios why you cannot work, then you made bad choices in life, and YOU must figure a way to help yourself. It is NOT the Govt. job to fix that kind of situation. Sorry, but it isn't. Work, or no benifits.
    [/QUOTE]

    Ahhh yes the notorious welfare mother. Let me guess she pops out more kids to recieve a higher welfare payment, right? How about widowers with say three children, is she out-of-control because her husband died? Men never abandon their wives/children, right?

    [QUOTE] So, how looney am I this time guys?[/QUOTE]

    Loonier than Howard Dean huffing paint from a paper bag.

  3. #3
    The main problem I see here is the erradication of construction workers and companies. Other than that, it sounds very much like a Communist, (not a negative connotation), based idea. Only in communistic [B]theory[/B], we would all help rebuild. Good Idea...Horrible Execution.

  4. #4
    I like your idea unfortunately it makes too much sense for anyone to pay attention.

    Why have a plan when you can just spend like crazy and let the next guy deal with the mess?

    There is no such thing as fiscal conservatism anymore. There are only degrees of fiscal liberalism and one group is worse than the next.

  5. #5
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    I think Hitler started along these lines. :eek:

  6. #6
    [QUOTE=jetswin]I think Hitler started along these lines. :eek:[/QUOTE]

    In what specific way? :huh:

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    [QUOTE=Warfish]In what specific way? :huh:[/QUOTE]

    He took all the plights of society, which in his mind was the Jews, homosexuals, and disabled, and put them to work. Later on he decided to exterminate them.

    Arbeit Mact Frei.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish]In what specific way? :huh:[/QUOTE]
    Sate sponsored road, building, and other various construction projects. The VW, a car for the people. It's a bit of a reach but analogies can be drawn.

    I like your ideas about putting people to work for their benefits, and there is no doubt that these people are an untapped labor source. The problem IMO is that Americans at all levels of society and affluence have become spoiled. Rich and poor. The influx of illegals, willing to work for less, to do the jobs that Americans (even those without jobs) feel is beneath them is the variable that would sink your plan.

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    Hey Warfish, if this is your idea of a solution. What do you think about Clinton's Welfare to Work program?

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    This is a similar plan that Guiliani implented when he took over for Dinkins at a time when NYC was known as the "welfare capital of America"....and it worked!

    To his credit clinton took the ball and ran with it, having some success.

    Now, you'll have people who b!tch that they shouldn't have to do jobs they don't want to do (i.e., rake up garbage on the Deegan Parkway). There was a recent documentary I watched a little of on "Link TV" (video version of Mother Jones magazine) which complained younger welfare recipients who were forced to work had to schedule college classes around workfare schedules (ha! like no one worked their way through school before!!).

    Anyway- the idea is very sound; instead of just paying these people welfare they should also be given credits toward potential coop/home ownership in the future. Want to get rid of the problems in "housing projects"? Give people an ownership interest in where they live rather then just handouts...

  11. #11
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    If we could mine the untapped oil resources in the USA, perhaps your plan would work. We could then tax the crap out of the oil companies and subsidize the poor's costs on housing, jobs, food, shoes, etc. , much like Venezuela is doing now. Charge US oil companies outrageous taxes, and allow them access to the precious black gold. But that is socialism, and in the end it just doesn't work.

  12. #12
    [QUOTE=jetswin]subsidize the poor[/QUOTE]

    The Left's answer to every problem. :rolleyes: How about the "poor" take some responsabillity and make a better life for themselves? :yes:

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=Warfish]Costs for Post-Katrina clean-up and recovery is now being estimated at 200+ Billion of American Taxpayer Money. Republican or Democrat, the trend these days is to a Welfare State that bails out everyone (Katrina) and everything (Airlines) on a pretty regular basis.

    Well, I have one thoery that I'd like to run by my very intelligent friends hee on the forum.

    Assuming that the American Welfare State is now set in stone (i.e. the U.S. will forever on have the aspect of Socialism that dictates Govt. funds are used/given to the unfortunate/lazy/unemployed/naturally devastated, etc.) I know some will claim this is a poor assumption, but I have seen and heard nothing from either part that would indicate that the Welfare State mentallity is going anywhere anytime soon, so it's the only assumption I can make.

    So here is my psudo-solution: The REAL New Deal

    First....Welfare is completely Federalized, i.e. no more State Welfare. States are notorious for simply giving massive handouts and asking nothing in return. A Federalized system can be standardized and more efficient, given the rest of the plan here.

    Second....No Benifits to anyone unwilling to work. I.e. Benifits are given only for those who will work for the Govt. during the time they receive benifits. Once they get another job, they stop working for the Govt. and stop getting benifits. Obviously, much of the work WILL be manual labor, but the Administration (clerical, etc) will also require many many jobs too.

    Third....use this massive (t least to start) labor pool to "Get Stuff Done". Need a new interstate highway, fine, use the Welfare pool. Need to rebuild New Orleans, fine, use the (now massive) Wlefare pool from that state/area. Put these people to work. If they want handouts, they MUST earn them by providing a service.

    Fourth...do you best to give these folks some minimal training while they "Welfare Work". Even if all it is is a lesson on how to swing a hammer, it can help them get work afterwards.

    Fifth....Start teaching about personal responsabillity. Look, if you CHOOSE to have 9 kids, and that ios why you cannot work, then you made bad choices in life, and YOU must figure a way to help yourself. It is NOT the Govt. job to fix that kind of situation. Sorry, but it isn't. Work, or no benifits.

    Sixth....look at what the country needs today, and use this labor pool for it. HYdro-Electric Dams? Build them. Refineries? Build them. Use the Welfare state as a tool, instead of just as a hand-out brigade.

    I know the drawbacks here.....lack of education or training among the Welfare pool being #1. I don;t have a great answer, but I am adamant that this Nation must get SOMETHING out of it's ongoing "investment" in the Wlefare State, and now in the New Orleans Refugees. If they want to rebuild, pay them, but make THEM do the rebuilding.

    So, how looney am I this time guys?[/QUOTE]

    You're not looney, but...

    WRT:

    First: You assume that the Federal government is more responsible with tax dollars than the state governments, and this is hardly true....plus, you then have (even moreso than today), reps from heavily welfare populated states (read: urban) extracting tax dollars from those states that have a lower welfare population. Just by sheer numbers, are all those 'projects' you are going to have done going to be accomplished in states with high welfare poulations or the nation in general? How will the welfare workers (and I would like to see them work) get to the worksite 'out-of-state'?

    Second: I like it....a lot.

    Third: I'm a bit leery about a interstate system or housing development being built by people with NO SKILLS...sure they can learn, but only IF THEY WANT TO, and most of them, well, don't.

    Fourth: While some welfare recipients are receptive to training, not all are. It's laudable to try and teach them marketable skills, but most have had the opportunity to learn and have for whatever reason not chosen to do so...why is this different?

    Fifth: You cannot 'teach' personal responsibility with any success IF you do not attach an ULTIMATUM...that is, IF you choose not to learn and work, YOU WILL NOT RECEICVE ANY FURTHER BENEFITS OR MONEY. I would LOVE for this to happen, but I have my doubts that it would come to fruition. The bottom line is that WE as a society have bred this generation of people that refuse to accept personal responsibility for their own behavior/lack of initiative and the only way it is going to be corrected is for us to take a hard stand...but I doubt the populace in general has the stomach for it. Unfortunate, but true.

    Sixth: See number THIRD above.

    Your plan suffers only from over-ambition...just make the able bodied welfare workers WORK, no matter how simple the task, and you will reduce the numbers considerably.

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    [QUOTE=jetswin]If we could mine the untapped oil resources in the USA, perhaps your plan would work. We could then tax the crap out of the oil companies and subsidize the poor's costs on housing, jobs, food, shoes, etc. , much like Venezuela is doing now. Charge US oil companies outrageous taxes, and allow them access to the precious black gold. But that is socialism, and in the end it just doesn't work.[/QUOTE]


    LOL...

    If you 'tax the crap' out of oil companies, why would they harvest the oil?

    If you subsidize the poor's costs on housing, jobs, food, shoes, etc., why would they try to find work?

    Why is it that some people continue to believe that companies/individuals operate in a political/economic vacuum?

    Here's a hint:

    If you want to see more of something, have the government 'subsidize' it...

    If you want to see less of something, have the government 'tax the crap' out of it...

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    [QUOTE=Section109Row15]Ahhh yes the notorious welfare mother. Let me guess she pops out more kids to recieve a higher welfare payment, right? How about widowers with say three children, is she out-of-control because her husband died? Men never abandon their wives/children, right?


    [/QUOTE]


    Please....let's make an exception for the 2% of welfare moms that are abandoned by their husbands. I'll do it gladly.

    I'm here to tell you that even here in the rural midwest, that of the deliveries I'm a part of, that fully 30-40% are to SINGLE, UNWED MOTHERS THAT ARE ON PUBLIC ASSISTANCE. And, of these 30-40%, fully 40-50% are UNDER THE AGE OF 19....NO JOB, NO HUSBAND, and NO MEANS OF SUPPORT.

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]LOL...

    If you 'tax the crap' out of oil companies, why would they harvest the oil?

    If you subsidize the poor's costs on housing, jobs, food, shoes, etc., why would they try to find work?

    Why is it that some people continue to believe that companies/individuals operate in a political/economic vacuum?

    Here's a hint:

    If you want to see more of something, have the government 'subsidize' it...

    If you want to see less of something, have the government 'tax the crap' out of it...[/QUOTE]

    Greenwave you are misunderstanding my post, perhaps I wasn't clear.

    Chavez in Venuzuela is currently charging taxes of astronomical sums to foreign countries mining oil in his country. If American companies are willing to pay for what in turn finances what is basically a socialist regime, and no friend of the USA.

    My point is, if we allow oil companies to tap into our reserves that are unrealized one of two things can happen; oild prices drop, or use the revenue for our people.

    Subsidize was a poor word choice on my part.

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