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Thread: The difference between good and bad teams

  1. #1
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    The difference between good and bad teams

    Good teams lock up their best players for long contracts that can be terminated without huge cap implications in the case that they become expendable (example: Curtis Martin, Chad Pennington)

    Bad teams sign players to big contracts based upon single season results (Pennington) that aren't easily terminated without dragging the entire franchise down.

    Good Teams look toward the future, even at the positions they have the most talent...Perfect Example, the Chiefs...despite having Priest Holmes who had run for the most touchdowns in NFL history over a 2 year span, they drafted Larry Johnson, whose now arguably better than Holmes.

    Bad Teams make no moves and expect guys to do it forever, like Curtis Martin, despite the fact that the reigns were ready to be handed over to Jordan at the end of last year. Yes, I know, he won the NFL Rushing title, but you could argue that Martin is completely reliant upon his line (which is now undeniable) and is a product of the line's Success....Jordan, behind a substandard line in Oakland in a downfield passing based offense, is quietly having an outstanding year in Oakland....The Jets hit a windfall in getting Jordan in the 2nd round...not having the foresight to make him the #1 back or at least split carries a true 50/50 made him hate the Jets....

    Good teams hold no loyalty to any single player, they are willing to go cheaper and younger at any position at any time. Look at the Pats, they cut Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, Troy Brown (who then resigned at the minimum because he's loyal) and continually drafted younger. Keith Traylor, Tyrone Poole, these guys were let go for younger players. They won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years in this fashion....despite the results this year. By the way, this year does support this, they are still a competitive football team that can put bad/awful teams away despite the fact that their ENTIRE secondary is hurt.

    Bad Teams lock up o-linemen in their 30s to bad contracts, they depend on QBs without the total physical makeup of most successful NFL QBs (arm strength, mobility), they lock up 30+ year old RBs, they trade for underachievers (Coles, McCareins, Jolley). THEY STRESS LOYALTY TO THEIR PLAYERS[/U] You can't be loyal anymore, you have to be ready to turn over your entire roster for cheaper, faster athletes and less injury possibilities. You have to know how to draft, trading draft picks for never-was tight ends is not how you do it, especially when that TE was gonna get cut anyway. The Jets before and after Parcells have done this over, and over, and over.....
    This isn't how you do it anymore....it's time to start realizing that there's always, even with your perceived best player, a younger, faster, less-injury prone, and, most importantly, CHEAPER alternative out there.....

    the players aren't loyal and their agents certainly aren't either....time to start catching up with reality....when guys get old dump'em. Sign them to Cap friendly seven year deals that are backloaded so that they can be cut at year three (and even resigned cheaper)...now we're getting the 4th or 5th pick in this draft (which unless Vick comes out (who wants him anyway) will be a tackle or guard) and are salary-scrapped for the next 2 years by a QB who probably won't even step on the field next year.....

    top 5 O-lineman usually don't pan out....or haven't really since Boselli, Ogden, and Pace....

    We're officially in the same salary boat as the Niners, which is awful, they got Super Bowls outta their spending....we got CHAD PENNINGTON from our spending, aka, the glass QB!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMarsico9

    Bad teams sign players to big contracts based upon single season results (Pennington) that aren't easily terminated without dragging the entire franchise down.
    In PennyBoy's case, his $64 million contract was NOT even based on one FULL season of play.

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    it's easy to sit here in retrospect and talk about what they should have done.

    At the time we all praised the Penny signing. Very rare were naysayers. Everyone including bradway thought this guy was going to be the face of the franchise for the next decade. There were threads in 2002 who is better Chad or Brady?

    now all of a sudden everyone knew Chad was a dumb signing, he sucks and they should have drafted Kyle Orton.

    it's like Oh, really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti
    it's easy to sit here in retrospect and talk about what they should have done.

    At the time we all praised the Penny signing. Very rare were naysayers. Everyone including bradway thought this guy was going to be the face of the franchise for the next decade. There were threads in 2002 who is better Chad or Brady?

    now all of a sudden everyone knew Chad was a dumb signing, he sucks and they should have drafted Kyle Orton.

    it's like Oh, really?
    Not true Bit. While everyone agreed that there was a benefit to getting him locked up early, many pointed out the risk associated with a big signing bonus on a real small sample size of results(less than a full season).

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMarsico9
    Good teams lock up their best players for long contracts that can be terminated without huge cap implications in the case that they become expendable (example: Curtis Martin, Chad Pennington)

    so let me ask.....you think the colts can cut peyton in the event he goes down with a serious injury and not have it hurt their cap? how about the falcons cutting mike vick when he inevitably goes down again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by neckdemon
    so let me ask.....you think the colts can cut peyton in the event he goes down with a serious injury and not have it hurt their cap? how about the falcons cutting mike vick when he inevitably goes down again?
    Both of those players got their contracts after starting more than 8 or 9 games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti
    it's easy to sit here in retrospect and talk about what they should have done.

    At the time we all praised the Penny signing. Very rare were naysayers. Everyone including bradway thought this guy was going to be the face of the franchise for the next decade. There were threads in 2002 who is better Chad or Brady?

    now all of a sudden everyone knew Chad was a dumb signing, he sucks and they should have drafted Kyle Orton.

    it's like Oh, really?
    Many in the know realized it was bad then, a 6'2" 220 lb. QB with a subpar arm? I wasn't part of this board back then, but my buddy (whose an agent for Sports Management World-Wide (www.smww.com)) got into arguments about this back then, he was right of course.....1 year at an inflated number would've made a heck of a lot more sense considering the lack of experience he had. Orton you can't blame anyone on, and let's be honest, he would be a bust on this squad. The real disaster is in the lack of having at least a promising #3 QB.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti

    now all of a sudden everyone knew Chad was a dumb signing, he sucks and they should have drafted Kyle Orton.
    I knew it at the time and told you guys so.

  9. #9

    while some of your points are very valid, sometimes it's

    Quote Originally Posted by PMarsico9
    Good teams lock up their best players for long contracts that can be terminated without huge cap implications in the case that they become expendable (example: Curtis Martin, Chad Pennington)

    Bad teams sign players to big contracts based upon single season results (Pennington) that aren't easily terminated without dragging the entire franchise down.

    Good Teams look toward the future, even at the positions they have the most talent...Perfect Example, the Chiefs...despite having Priest Holmes who had run for the most touchdowns in NFL history over a 2 year span, they drafted Larry Johnson, whose now arguably better than Holmes.

    Bad Teams make no moves and expect guys to do it forever, like Curtis Martin, despite the fact that the reigns were ready to be handed over to Jordan at the end of last year. Yes, I know, he won the NFL Rushing title, but you could argue that Martin is completely reliant upon his line (which is now undeniable) and is a product of the line's Success....Jordan, behind a substandard line in Oakland in a downfield passing based offense, is quietly having an outstanding year in Oakland....The Jets hit a windfall in getting Jordan in the 2nd round...not having the foresight to make him the #1 back or at least split carries a true 50/50 made him hate the Jets....

    Good teams hold no loyalty to any single player, they are willing to go cheaper and younger at any position at any time. Look at the Pats, they cut Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, Troy Brown (who then resigned at the minimum because he's loyal) and continually drafted younger. Keith Traylor, Tyrone Poole, these guys were let go for younger players. They won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years in this fashion....despite the results this year. By the way, this year does support this, they are still a competitive football team that can put bad/awful teams away despite the fact that their ENTIRE secondary is hurt.

    Bad Teams lock up o-linemen in their 30s to bad contracts, they depend on QBs without the total physical makeup of most successful NFL QBs (arm strength, mobility), they lock up 30+ year old RBs, they trade for underachievers (Coles, McCareins, Jolley). THEY STRESS LOYALTY TO THEIR PLAYERS[/U] You can't be loyal anymore, you have to be ready to turn over your entire roster for cheaper, faster athletes and less injury possibilities. You have to know how to draft, trading draft picks for never-was tight ends is not how you do it, especially when that TE was gonna get cut anyway. The Jets before and after Parcells have done this over, and over, and over.....
    This isn't how you do it anymore....it's time to start realizing that there's always, even with your perceived best player, a younger, faster, less-injury prone, and, most importantly, CHEAPER alternative out there.....

    the players aren't loyal and their agents certainly aren't either....time to start catching up with reality....when guys get old dump'em. Sign them to Cap friendly seven year deals that are backloaded so that they can be cut at year three (and even resigned cheaper)...now we're getting the 4th or 5th pick in this draft (which unless Vick comes out (who wants him anyway) will be a tackle or guard) and are salary-scrapped for the next 2 years by a QB who probably won't even step on the field next year.....

    top 5 O-lineman usually don't pan out....or haven't really since Boselli, Ogden, and Pace....

    We're officially in the same salary boat as the Niners, which is awful, they got Super Bowls outta their spending....we got CHAD PENNINGTON from our spending, aka, the glass QB!!!
    just plain blind luck. in the case of chad, it's plain bad luck. in the case of curtiss and many other players, it's the jets being the jets. historcally, the jets have paid more for their players than most teams but don't have the record to indicate it. i think they need to be way more ruthless when it comes to getting rid of players who may be still playing well but also have high mileage or signs of slippage. i hope they would follow the baseball rules in better to trade a player early rather than late.

    the 49 ers along with the jets are a pretty good example of two teams that started out the same but diverged and now are converging. each team was pretty bad in the 70's came into the 80's with good young players. at some point, the jets simply failed while the 49ers won a few superbowls. the 49ers fell hard because they were cheaters but probably will get back on top , hate to say, before the jets. mainly because their front office has the will to win and wants to win. and is also ruthless when it comes to keeping players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX
    I knew it at the time and told you guys so.
    You also said Vilma was to small to be a MLB.

    Credibility = 0

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    Good teams don't get crippled by injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neckdemon
    so let me ask.....you think the colts can cut peyton in the event he goes down with a serious injury and not have it hurt their cap? how about the falcons cutting mike vick when he inevitably goes down again?
    In addition to both having had proved it over way more than 9 games, they both are extremely physically gifted QBs.....Pennington's rag arm and lack of mobility are not. He will only ever be SERVICEABLE (aka he will MANAGE games, but he doesn't possess the physical gifts necessary to make the throws, take the hits, or run for the yardage to win games and lead the team). This isn't Tom Brady here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti
    Good teams don't get crippled by injury.
    This team was on their way to bad before the first injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piper
    You also said Vilma was to small to be a MLB.

    Credibility = 0

    I never said that. I said after the draft that as he was at that point he was too small to make an impact right away and that people would need to be patient. I never said he was a bust. I said he needed to add bulk. It was a challenge more than a prediction.

    How many posters know that Jon Vilma put on 10 pounds of muscle in the time between minicamps and training camp as a rookie? had he not done that who knows how his rookie year would have gone?

    even at his current weight he still needs to be protected by the DT for his game to be effective. He's not the type of guy that can stand there and shuck guards. he works best with freedom to move. I stand by my statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piper
    This team was on their way to bad before the first injury.
    they were 1-1 heading into week 3, which they lost to a now 9-3 jacksonville team in overtime. The chiefs just beat the broncos and more than that the Jets traditionally play better late than early. We don't know that the team was doomed with or without Chad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti
    I never said that. I said after the draft that as he was at that point he was too small to make an impact right away and that people would need to be patient. I never said he was a bust. I said he needed to add bulk. It was a challenge more than a prediction.

    How many posters know that Jon Vilma put on 10 pounds of muscle in the time between minicamps and training camp as a rookie? had he not done that who knows how his rookie year would have gone?

    even at his current weight he still needs to be protected by the DT for his game to be effective. He's not the type of guy that can stand there and shuck guards. he works best with freedom to move. I stand by my statements.
    Ummm I was responding to Tx

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti
    they were 1-1 heading into week 3, which they lost to a now 9-3 jacksonville team in overtime. The chiefs just beat the broncos and more than that the Jets traditionally play better late than early. We don't know that the team was doomed with or without Chad.
    They beat Miami, who is bad now, after improving from horrible when we played them. and when they lost to Jacksonville, Leftwhich could barely walk, and was questionable if he was even going to play.

    C'mon man. We just weren't that good to start with.

  18. #18

    i think that's a bit to general. the injuries can

    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti
    Good teams don't get crippled by injury.
    be tolerated up to a certain point and then they overwhelm. the jets team had a chance to bounce back when chad and fiedler went down. unfortunately, the defense didn't show and the offense was forced to play from behind. by the time the defense started to play okay, the offense was shot.

    the whole thing about injuries is the timing and the position. every team can absorb the starting qb going down hard for a few games but how about the starter and the 2nd string for the whole season? not to mention the oline. this is just too much also considering that the injuries were bunched together. now the team is totally out of it and only playiong for next year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piper
    Ummm I was responding to Tx
    oops - well I also said he was too small - and posters remind me of that fact.

    i just wanted to get that explanation out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti
    I never said that. I said after the draft that as he was at that point he was too small to make an impact right away and that people would need to be patient. I never said he was a bust. I said he needed to add bulk. It was a challenge more than a prediction.

    How many posters know that Jon Vilma put on 10 pounds of muscle in the time between minicamps and training camp as a rookie? had he not done that who knows how his rookie year would have gone?

    even at his current weight he still needs to be protected by the DT for his game to be effective. He's not the type of guy that can stand there and shuck guards. he works best with freedom to move. I stand by my statements.
    Shut your mouth about J-Ville, he's on pace for over 180 tackles this year and flies all over the field like a Tomahawk Cruise Missile....There's no better, faster, more passionate MLB in football, especially considering Vilma's age. At a point in the season when even Donnie Henderson seems to be losing some of his spunk, Vilma shows up every week, not just looking to win, but to rip the whole opposing offenses heads off and s*** down their necks. I firmly believe that the only reason this team still plays hard is because of the fire and passion of Herman Edwards and #51 Jonathan Vilma....

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