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Thread: Patrick Ramsey: A Perfect Fit for the Jets -- Sort of.

  1. #1
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    Patrick Ramsey: A Perfect Fit for the Jets -- Sort of.

    Let's be blunt. As a player, Ramsey can't do much at all to help this team.

    His worst liability is the fact that he's awful under pressure. In the face of a pass rush, picture the club-footed Testaverde and Bledsoe with neither experience nor the built-in excuse of age. The only thing worse than Ramsey's footwork in the pocket is his propensity to hang onto the ball for an eternity when any other QB's internal clock tells him it's long past the time to release.

    I ask you: does this sound like a fit for a Jets team that is completely revamping its OL? Of course not. Yes, he's got a cannon for an arm. But that doesn't do a great deal of good when you're making the same mistakes as a 4-year vet as you did when you were a rookie.

    Maybe you're tempted to give Ramsey a pass based on the fact that he's had the terrible fortune of playing in so many different systems with poor offenses, and then lost his job to Gibbs' hand-picked man, Brunell. Unfortunately, when you take a closer look at the situation, Ramsey's free pass is revoked. That's because, although Ramsey didn't have a fair shot at being a starter under Gibbs, he certainly had a fair shot to be the Skins QB of the future in the post-Brunell era. He failed there too.

    The game may very well have passed Gibbs by as a coach. But as a QB evaluator, we can't forget that he did win 3 Super Bowls with 3 different mediocre QBs. Plus, last year, everyone said he was crazy to give Brunell the nod. But Gibbs proved correct and everyone else was wrong.

    Now, the NFL's had glimpses of Patrick on Sunday, but Gibbs has seen more, including every practice. So what did he think of Ramsey's future potential? Well, he went out and traded his 2006 3rd round, 2007 1st AND 4th round to reach for the unproven Campbell at QB, to groom for the future. Talk about a slap in the face.

    If all that's the case, how in the hell is Ramsey a fit for the Jets? Simple. It's GM SMOKESCREEN 101.

    A sham mating dance with the Redskins over Ramsey makes sense because it includes Abraham as trade bait. This, in turn, this drives up Abraham's trade value. And as aggressive as the Skins have been, teams must view Snyder as a legitimate threat in the Abe sweepstakes, and make an even higher offer for Abe before the draft. Tannenbaum wins.

    Want an added bonus? As we draw closer to March 3rd at the end of this week, Pennington and Condon feel more disposable and vulnerable if Ramsey is seen as an option for the Jets.

    So, as these Ramsey rumors whip up into a frenzy, try not to be alarmed. It's just Tannenbaum positioning the Jets to get as much value as possible for Abraham. And if we lead the Skins on, while using them as a pawn in the game, I have a feeling that's something that the Jets organization can live with very comfortably.

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    Thank you for the detail on Ramsey. I've been saying this all along, but very few listen to me. Perhaps your detail will convert some Ramsey-ites.

    I have faith in your assessment regarding the smokescreen. I just keep having O'Donnell flashbacks though.

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    Ramsey does indeed have poor footwork at current, and would need a good chunk of mentoring and QB-Coach love to live up to his big-arm potential.

    I still think he can be a big QB in this league however, if put in the right situation, and I believe the Jets could (stress could) be that situation, with a known QB-Reviver in Shottenheimer (who revived Brees from almost falling into Bust status) and if given a open honest chance, where he actually had some coaching support.

    Of course, he won't get that from Jets fans.

    Clearly, you still view Gibbs as an unquestioned genius, so to debate your position on that would be pointless. But I think if someone choose to dig just a little deeper than the surface in regards to Ramsey's career to-date, he'd see alot more that just a bad player rightfully snubbed under a "genius".

    Who do you prefer to see starting at QB week one Flow, assuming Chadwick cannot regain his health, or is indeed cut loose?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish
    Ramsey does indeed have poor footwork at current, and would need a good chunk of mentoring and QB-Coach love to live up to his big-arm potential.

    I still think he can be a big QB in this league however, if put in the right situation, and I believe the Jets could (stress could) be that situation, with a known QB-Reviver in Shottenheimer (who revived Brees from almost falling into Bust status) and if given a open honest chance, where he actually had some coaching support.

    Of course, he won't get that from Jets fans.

    Clearly, you still view Gibbs as an unquestioned genius, so to debate your position on that would be pointless. But I think if someone choose to dig just a little deeper than the surface in regards to Ramsey's career to-date, he'd see alot more that just a bad player rightfully snubbed under a "genius".

    Who do you prefer to see starting at QB week one Flow, assuming Chadwick cannot regain his health, or is indeed cut loose?

    was waiting for your response when i saw the title to this thread War, i know you've been on high on Rams potential but I was never really sold on him either

    honestly I dont know who will behind center come summer I'm really clueless as to where we're going (happens when teh leaks all get sealed up)

    rivers-Ramsey-leinhart-cutler-young, etc who knows I'll just leave it to teh team to guess right

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    [QUOTE=Flowtrain]
    If all that's the case, how in the hell is Ramsey a fit for the Jets? Simple. It's GM SMOKESCREEN 101.

    A sham mating dance with the Redskins over Ramsey makes sense because it includes Abraham as trade bait. This, in turn, this drives up Abraham's trade value. And as aggressive as the Skins have been, teams must view Snyder as a legitimate threat in the Abe sweepstakes, and make an even higher offer for Abe before the draft. Tannenbaum wins.



    And now that you posted this, none of the other teams will give the Jets a higher offer for Abe. It is sad, but we ( Jets fans ) tent to help other teams in our smart evaluation of the situation.

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    Hope you're right Flow, I don't want Ramsey...get me one of the rooks and I'll have hope for the future of my favorite franchise.

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    Here is the problem, some want a HOF QB to come in here. Ramsey is a perfect player for the Jets to add as a 1a QB, he is a very good QB to have as your #2 or as a short term #1.

    Those of you that claim Ramsey couldnt keep his job are dead wrong. He was never ever truly given the job. And while all the coaches he has had have wanted to have someone else as their starting QB they alway have had to go back to Ramsey at some point. IMO , he is more of a guy that keeps fighting his way into the lineup, more then he is a guy that cant keep his job.

    He is always playing with the shortest of short leashes.
    Dont go by 4skin fan opinions , they are as bad as Jet fans.
    Had The Skins just stuck with Ramsey from the start they would have a very good QB by now. The skins would have sat Payton Manning , cause his first 20 starts looked alot like Ramseys.

    If we wind up with Chad, Ramsey , and a top 5 drafted QB on the team I will be gaurdedly happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetswin
    Hope you're right Flow, I don't want Ramsey...get me one of the rooks and I'll have hope for the future of my favorite franchise.
    I didnt think I wanted Ramsey before i read Flow's post, and now I'm sure of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FREEMAN MC
    And now that you posted this, none of the other teams will give the Jets a higher offer for Abe. It is sad, but we ( Jets fans ) tent to help other teams in our smart evaluation of the situation.
    NFL GMs aren't scouring this board to help them make decisions. And they aren't blind to the fact that smokescreens exist and are often used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mean Bro Green
    was waiting for your response when i saw the title to this thread War, i know you've been on high on Rams potential but I was never really sold on him either

    honestly I dont know who will behind center come summer I'm really clueless as to where we're going (happens when teh leaks all get sealed up)

    rivers-Ramsey-leinhart-cutler-young, etc who knows I'll just leave it to teh team to guess right
    I like Ramsey, perhaps it's the bad luck and hard path he's faced, who knows. And yes, I like him almost completely due to potential and guts, not actual play. I admit that fact up front. A number of Flows complaints on Ramsey are dead on, as I said, especially his rather "happy feet" footwork.

    Truth is though, Ramsey has never had a fair chance to win a #1 spot since coming in the NFL, has never had the confidence of a Coach, or a Staff, and has never been "groomed" in any way to play QB in the NFL. He is always "someone else's guy", on a team with a "chosen one" at QB ahead of him, and has never gotton the kind of coaching required to be a successful QB in the NFL.

    Ramsey was drafted against the will of his coach (Spurrior) by Owner Dan Snyder. Not given a fair chance to compete initially, as Spurrior was dedicated to playing his ex-Gators at QB to prove he, and his system and former system-QB’s, were right for the NFL. When played, Ramsey was thrown to the wolves in a poorly designed system for Ramseys skill set, and behind one of the worst O-lines of recent years in a No-protect/no-TE system.

    Ramsey is inherited by Joe Gibbs, Round II. Gibbs has Mark Brunell all-but-signed for a 7 Million starting QB deal before ever even looking at film of Ramsey, or meeting him. Gibbs is a “veteran QB coach” and requires a older QB he can feel comfortable with, and Brunell is not only that, but is also a fellow “man of faith”, right up Gibbs alley. Ramsey is never given a fair shot to compete, and to be fair, plays almost as badly as Brunell when given his few brief chances as a #2. He is theoretically given a chance as the #1 in 2005, but is pulled (permanently) on a phantom injury in game #1 of that season, for Gibbs chosen one.

    LET ME BE CLEAR: Ramsey is NOT my first choice. Matt Schaub (for a 2nd rounder hopefully) is my clear #1 preference for QB on the NY Jets. I love everything about Schaub, and pray daily we get him, although the odds don't favor that.

    But Ramsey, for a mid-round choice, makes a worthy competitor at QB. Give a 5th for him, and he can be brought in to compete. If he fails, all we've lost is a fifth (no one likes losing picks, but a 5th isn't a worldbreaker to use on potential at the QB spot in my view).

    The kid reminds me of good players I knew who didn't get time in little league because the coaches son was playing ahead of them. Ramsey has always been the coaches "other guy" when they had a chosen one at QB. The fact that Ramsey played as much as he has, with these chosen ones ahead of him, is a testement that he isn't as horrid as some might think.

    But even with all that said, if Flow IS right, and the Ramsey talk is just smoke to help raise Abrahams value in a potential trade, that too must be taken as good news, because anythign that increases Abes value is good for the Jets in the long term.

    Bro, I've taken the position of not taking any positions until I see what Mangini/Tann create for us this offseason, as a whole. Until we see what Mangini puts on the field week 1, it is going to be very hard to judge things IMO.

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    Flow & Fish please respond........

    Flowtrain and Warfish what are your thoughts and or evaluations on.
    Matt Schuab being a Jet QB you may have posted on this issue B-4
    but I didn't see it, I value your opinions a great deal so if you both have the time I would appreciate your views on Matt Schuab.
    Thank you.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Commissioner
    Here is the problem, some want a HOF QB to come in here. Ramsey is a perfect player for the Jets to add as a 1a QB, he is a very good QB to have as your #2 or as a short term #1.

    Those of you that claim Ramsey couldnt keep his job are dead wrong. He was never ever truly given the job. And while all the coaches he has had have wanted to have someone else as their starting QB they alway have had to go back to Ramsey at some point. IMO , he is more of a guy that keeps fighting his way into the lineup, more then he is a guy that cant keep his job.

    He is always playing with the shortest of short leashes.
    Dont go by 4skin fan opinions , they are as bad as Jet fans.
    Had The Skins just stuck with Ramsey from the start they would have a very good QB by now. The skins would have sat Payton Manning , cause his first 20 starts looked alot like Ramseys.

    If we wind up with Chad, Ramsey , and a top 5 drafted QB on the team I will be gaurdedly happy.

    You are absolutely right. Peyton was awfull when he first came into this league but was given the chance to develop. Ramesy has never been given the same chance.

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    I don't know about you guys but I am not willing to gamble on a player that "has not been given a chance" by multiple coaches, that "was stuck on a little league bench" that has "bad luck."

    C'mon, enough with QB experiments. Go get one of the studs coming out. We suck it up for a year as he learns. the team is not going to the SB next year anyway.

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    To your point Jetswin, Ramsey has been ruined by Spurrier. Sad but true. The guy took more shots in 1 year under Stevie than most QB's in a career. As a result he's gunshy and error prone when pressured. I feel for the guy but let's not make his problem OUR problem.

    I pass.

    Let's get Schaub.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chesapeakejet
    To your point Jetswin, Ramsey has been ruined by Spurrier. Sad but true. The guy took more shots in 1 year under Stevie than most QB's in a career. As a result he's gunshy and error prone when pressured. I feel for the guy but let's not make his problem OUR problem.

    I pass.
    exactly...the Jets are not running a QB charity

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetswin
    exactly...the Jets are not running a QB charity
    LOLOLOL!!!! I'm starting to wonder about that myself! An abused QB's shelter!

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    Your first sentence you are dead wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Flowtrain
    Let's be blunt. As a player, Ramsey can't do much at all to help this team.

    .
    With a QB rating of 75 after 4 years, he can definitely help this team but not as you may think. He helps us by allowing us to get higher picks in next years draft, maybe #1 overall.

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    Warfish -- It's okay to say that Ramsey had less than ideal conditions under which to develop his talent. But are the 2006 Jets really such ideal and fertile grounds for a QB revival?

    Although Ramsey could benefit from better coaching/commitment than he's had in the past, he'll need more than that to succeed. He needs protection and weapons. Not only are the Jets inadequate right now in that department, the team is below average. What has Ramsey shown that indicates that he can succed with a bad supporting cast? If anything, he's shown that he's badly hurt by this.

    Pointing to a Schottenheimer revival in the spirit of Brees is a nice notion. But without Tomlinson, Gates, Neal, and the SD OL to assist in the transformation, I think those expectations are a bit too hopeful.

    I'd prefer to see one of the blue chip rookie QBs over Ramsey, but this begs the question: won't they too be plagued by the same problems? However, at least in the case of the rookie, he can be (1) transitioned in after half the season once there's some stability, (2) will be properly coached from the onset with a clean slate, rather than avoiding bad pro habits, and (3) he will have a higher ceiling on overall potential that comes with being the #4 overall pick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flowtrain
    Warfish -- It's okay to say that Ramsey had less than ideal conditions under which to develop his talent. But are the 2006 Jets really such ideal and fertile grounds for a QB revival?
    Sadly, most likey the answer is no. The 2006 Jets are a team in transition, almost a complete ground-up-rebuild even. Our O-line requires a vast overhaul and we lack speed and talent at the skill positions. While Ramsey has shown flashes of skill on a mostly talent-less "O", you are not wrong in doubting him in such a void of talent situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flowtrain
    Although Ramsey could benefit from better coaching/commitment than he's had in the past, he'll need more than that to succeed. He needs protection and weapons. Not only are the Jets inadequate right now in that department, the team is below average. What has Ramsey shown that indicates that he can succed with a bad supporting cast? If anything, he's shown that he's badly hurt by this.
    Agreed, as above. The idea of a Ramsey is as a cheap-option with upside. Draft a QB #1 (Culter?), and we likely do not get a franchise-maker at tackle, like Brick, or even the option to trade down and garner extra selections with which to rebuild the face of the O-line. Instead we would have to fill the O-line with a 2nd rounder at best, or lower round/FA selections. Use a 5th on Ramsey, and those options still exist. Ramsey is the "poor-man's-potential" option at QB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flowtrain
    Pointing to a Schottenheimer revival in the spirit of Brees is a nice notion. But without Tomlinson, Gates, Neal, and the SD OL to assist in the transformation, I think those expectations are a bit too hopeful.
    Agreed to a point. A Martin/Houston/Blaylock backfield can, in my view, be productive IF Martin is used correctly and Blaylock shows any of what lured us to get him in the first place. Coles is no longer a gamebreaker at WR, but he is solid, and if JMac could learn to use his hands (ok, forget that, that IS fantasy). Yes, we have less o-skill talent than SD had, but not by as far a margin as some think, at least as I see it. Perhaps I am being too optimistic on that view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flowtrain
    I'd prefer to see one of the blue chip rookie QBs over Ramsey, but this begs the question: won't they too be plagued by the same problems? However, at least in the case of the rookie, he can be (1) transitioned in after half the season once there's some stability, (2) will be properly coached from the onset with a clean slate, rather than avoiding bad pro habits, and (3) he will have a higher ceiling on overall potential that comes with being the #4 overall pick.
    Agreed, again to a point. Any QB we bring in will suffer through the growing and learning process of a rebuilding 2006 Jets O. While a Ramsey, who has already faced the "punch in the mouth" of no protection and no-skill players (under Spurrior) and stood strong, if not terrably productive, could indeed falter, there is equally a chance that a rookie QB, thrown into such a situation, could pull a "Nagle" on us and bow out completely. Not likely, agreed, but possible too.

    No, Ramsey is what he is. He is cheap, and available. He is potential, but not close to a proven item. He is a player that could flourish, or fail, just as likely. He is risk, personified, no question.

    I still prefer Mat Schaub over all other options, including a draft pick, but I won't cry if we get Ramsey cheap AND draft a QB. Or Ramsey cheap and Schaub expesnive to compete against each other.

    What I really want to see is Chad gone (I just don't believe his shoulder will ever truly recover) and TWO options brought in to compete for #1, with BOTH being possible long-term starters in the league.

    Schaub for our #2 and Draft a QB in the 3rd or 4th maybe?
    Draft Cutler #1 and trade for Ramsey in the 5th Round?
    2nd for Schaub, 5th for Ramsey, 1st, 3rd, 4th on O-line?
    2nd for Schaub, and sign FA from Arizona (his name for some reason eludes me right now, young kid)?

    What I do NOT want to see is a worn-down Vet like Collins on this roster. Recycled old men I have had enough of, personally.

    But let me be clear, I won't be crying if we choose Cutler, or even Young or Leinart, at #4. What scares me though, is giving up too much (in picks or players) to trade UP to get one of the three. I think we are just too weak on O (especially O-line) to warrant such a trade up.
    Last edited by Warfish; 02-27-2006 at 03:26 PM.

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    My ideal scenario is to draft D'Brick, play Chad (or Brooks) and also bring in D'Angelo Williams. Not possible I know unless J Abe is traded.

    THis gives us 2 scenarios next season...we do better and Chad gets back to the form. The 2nd is that we stink but the young guys get to learn and in the '07 draft we have a great chance to draft Brady QUINN who is heads and shoulders abive Leinart, Cutler etc.

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