Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: Robertson, Moore and the value of statistics?

  1. #1
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Jets Stadium Section 246
    Posts
    36,924

    Robertson, Moore and the value of statistics?

    We've all heard the criticism of Dewayne Robertson....not the playmaker we expected, miscast in a 3-4, not worthy of the #4 pick, etc. Often, statistics such as sacks, tackles, etc. have been used in an attempt to show that Robertson is not a good DT.

    At the same time, the Rashaad Moore bandwagon is running out of seats. It seems as if this guy has really surprised us, come out of nowhere and helped solidify the interior line to a degree. I think he's been a great addition but I wonder if we are being fair when we criticize one player based on statistics and then ignore statistics when we praise another.

    Obviously, it is hard to ignore Robertson's draft status and the expectations on him when evaluating his play. Similarly, the fact that Moore was a low cost, last minute addition to the team seems to make anything he does look that much better. If you didn't know that Moore has only 3 tackles this season to Robertson's 6 you might think he has been seriously outplaying Dewayne.

    http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396041

    http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396175

    And, if we say "well, Moore has really opened up things for other guys to make plays" then isn't that exactly what we criticized Dewayne for by saying "a #4 pick isn't paid to free up other guys" ?

    How can we tell who is our best option at NT right now? It looks like a 50/50 split of playing time is starting to take shape and maybe that is the right answer. But it would be good to have one of these guys really own the NT spot and continue to get game reps there. I think you only get better that way.

    Also, has there been a CJ Mosely sighting anywhere lately?

  2. #2
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    6,539
    Quote Originally Posted by jetstream23
    We've all heard the criticism of Dewayne Robertson....not the playmaker we expected, miscast in a 3-4, not worthy of the #4 pick, etc. Often, statistics such as sacks, tackles, etc. have been used in an attempt to show that Robertson is not a good DT.

    At the same time, the Rashaad Moore bandwagon is running out of seats. It seems as if this guy has really surprised us, come out of nowhere and helped solidify the interior line to a degree. I think he's been a great addition but I wonder if we are being fair when we criticize one player based on statistics and then ignore statistics when we praise another.

    Obviously, it is hard to ignore Robertson's draft status and the expectations on him when evaluating his play. Similarly, the fact that Moore was a low cost, last minute addition to the team seems to make anything he does look that much better. If you didn't know that Moore has only 3 tackles this season to Robertson's 6 you might think he has been seriously outplaying Dewayne.

    http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396041

    http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396175

    And, if we say "well, Moore has really opened up things for other guys to make plays" then isn't that exactly what we criticized Dewayne for by saying "a #4 pick isn't paid to free up other guys" ?

    How can we tell who is our best option at NT right now? It looks like a 50/50 split of playing time is starting to take shape and maybe that is the right answer. But it would be good to have one of these guys really own the NT spot and continue to get game reps there. I think you only get better that way.

    Also, has there been a CJ Mosely sighting anywhere lately?
    I Agree 100% you don't need statistics to prove D slob is garbage. All you have to do is watch him play. 4-3 or 3-4 he's not worth a 3rd round draft pick. Dan Koppen slapped him around like a redheaded step child until Mangini finally wised up an put his 8 million dollar A$$ on the bench.

  3. #3
    All Pro
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,232
    With Moore in, the Jets were stout against the run. With Robertson in we were getting ran through like swiss cheese. Hate to make it sound that simple and non-analtical but Moore is an anchor there and you can see there were no holes to run.

  4. #4
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Yardley, PA
    Posts
    5,161
    Quote Originally Posted by gangGREENinsider
    With Moore in, the Jets were stout against the run. With Robertson in we were getting ran through like swiss cheese. Hate to make it sound that simple and non-analtical but Moore is an anchor there and you can see there were no holes to run.
    In the case of NT, tackles/sacks/pressures are not very good stats to compare players. The primary success of a NT can be best evaluated by the team's defense against the run. Now, of course, to compare one team against another introduces many variables beyond just the abilities of the NTs.

    However, someone the other day posted some intersting stats from the Pats game. I believe the pats run average was 2.7 when moore played vs 4.2 when DRob played. Same day, same opponent, same teammates. That is very telling.

    So that statisitical analysis backs up what you are observing.

  5. #5
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    10,495
    was robertson really benched during the pats game?

  6. #6
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    15,550
    Quote Originally Posted by dmaynard
    In the case of NT, tackles/sacks/pressures are not very good stats to compare players. The primary success of a NT can be best evaluated by the team's defense against the run. Now, of course, to compare one team against another introduces many variables beyond just the abilities of the NTs.

    However, someone the other day posted some intersting stats from the Pats game. I believe the pats run average was 2.7 when moore played vs 4.2 when DRob played. Same day, same opponent, same teammates. That is very telling.

    So that statisitical analysis backs up what you are observing.
    true but if we want to get really accurate we have to look at sample size, separate by RB and specify inside or outside run.

  7. #7
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    22,714
    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBound
    true but if we want to get really accurate we have to look at sample size, separate by RB and specify inside or outside run.
    Here is the sample size
    Backup NT Rashad Moore is an underrated run stuffer. In 11 running plays with Moore, the Jets allowed 32 yards (2.9 average) against the Pats. In 27 plays with starter Dewayne Robertson, they yielded 115 (4.2).

  8. #8
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    10,114
    Quote Originally Posted by shasta
    I Agree 100% you don't need statistics to prove D slob is garbage. All you have to do is watch him play. 4-3 or 3-4 he's not worth a 3rd round draft pick. Dan Koppen slapped him around like a redheaded step child until Mangini finally wised up an put his 8 million dollar A$$ on the bench.
    Garbage is where you should have been put after you were born.

  9. #9
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    15,550
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikeyman3
    Here is the sample size
    good stuff, i didnt realize he played that much

  10. #10
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    22,079
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikeyman3
    Here is the sample size

    Backup NT Rashad Moore is an underrated run stuffer. In 11 running plays with Moore, the Jets allowed 32 yards (2.9 average) against the Pats. In 27 plays with starter Dewayne Robertson, they yielded 115 (4.2).
    Thanks for pointing this out.

    The fact remains that DRob merely sucked in the 4-3 and now major sucks in the 3-4. We can't get around the fact that he sucks. He is a bust with a degenerative knee condition.

    The only reason he is not criticized more is that Charles Rogers, picked 2 spots ahead of him, is a monumental bust while DRob is merely a bust.

  11. #11
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    28,110
    Quote Originally Posted by emslave
    Garbage is where you should have been put after you were born.
    What's wrong?

    Shasta has a point.

  12. #12
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Jets Stadium Section 246
    Posts
    36,924
    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable
    What's wrong?

    Shasta has a point.
    Your sig picture is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the guy who has a penguin with a 63 etched on its chest!

  13. #13
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Jets Stadium Section 246
    Posts
    36,924
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikeyman3
    Here is the sample size
    Good stuff. Now THOSE are the kind of statistics that tell us something! Thanks.

    Why has Mangini, who rarely praises players unless they're doing really really well, been speaking so positively of DRob lately then?

  14. #14
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    22,714
    Quote Originally Posted by jetstream23
    Good stuff. Now THOSE are the kind of statistics that tell us something! Thanks.

    Why has Mangini, who rarely praises players unless they're doing really really well, been speaking so positively of DRob lately then?
    He has to.

    I'm sure in closed door meetings "The Penguin" is ripping him on film.

  15. #15
    Undrafted Free Agent
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    105

    Robertson

    A pylon could stop the run better than robertson

  16. #16
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,144
    You can blame Robertson for sucking in the 43 base defense, but it's not his fault he was miscast in the 34. That's on Mangini, not D-Rob.

    Everyone within a 400 mile radius of New York knew D-Rob couldn't play the Nose in the 34. Apparently that memo never reached Mangini's desk.

  17. #17
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Jets Stadium Section 246
    Posts
    36,924
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Straw
    You can blame Robertson for sucking in the 43 base defense, but it's not his fault he was miscast in the 34. That's on Mangini, not D-Rob.

    Everyone within a 400 mile radius of New York knew D-Rob couldn't play the Nose in the 34. Apparently that memo never reached Mangini's desk.
    DRob had a very good year under Donnie Henderson in the 4-3 in 2004. Give credit to Jason Ferguson being next to him but DRob can excel in a 4-3 if he has a big body next to him. JMHO.

  18. #18
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    22,079
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Straw
    You can blame Robertson for sucking in the 43 base defense, but it's not his fault he was miscast in the 34. That's on Mangini, not D-Rob.

    Everyone within a 400 mile radius of New York knew D-Rob couldn't play the Nose in the 34. Apparently that memo never reached Mangini's desk.
    True.

    My guess would be that they knew he sucked in the 4-3 so might as well see how much he sucks in the 3-4.

    By the way, we can't overlook the fact that DRob didn't restructure this year and his cap charge is the highest on the team ($9 million) while he's taking in about $4 million. If they cut him next year, the cap hit won't be that high because of his cap charge this year. Just something to keep in mind.

  19. #19
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    22,079
    Quote Originally Posted by jetstream23
    DRob had a very good year under Donnie Henderson in the 4-3 in 2004. Give credit to Jason Ferguson being next to him but DRob can excel in a 4-3 if he has a big body next to him. JMHO.
    "Very good" is stretching it quite a bit. He had 53 total tackles and 3 sacks that season. Compare that to a guy like Williams who had 70 tackles and 12 sacks that same year or John Henderson who had 75 tackles and 6 sacks that year as well. DRob was a higher pick than both those guys.

  20. #20
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Jets Stadium Section 246
    Posts
    36,924
    Quote Originally Posted by SMC
    "Very good" is stretching it quite a bit. He had 53 total tackles and 3 sacks that season. Compare that to a guy like Williams who had 70 tackles and 12 sacks that same year or John Henderson who had 75 tackles and 6 sacks that year as well. DRob was a higher pick than both those guys.
    Fair point.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us