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Thread: Revisionist History

  1. #1
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    Revisionist History

    First of all, I really like some of what I'm seeing from the Mangini Jets.

    I love the no quit attitude. I like the agressiveness on offense. I like the opportunism on defense. I like seeing that the team seems to be very well conditioned, with a lot left in the tank to finish games. I love a few of the calls (the QB sneak after luring Buffalo into thinking we just trying to draw them offsides yesterday is one excellent piece of coaching that comes to mind). And overall, I'm very optimistic about what seems to be a team that has most of it's i's dotted and t's crossed.

    That said, I'm getting really tired of the Herm bashing, "now you know what a well coached team looks like," "under Herm we would definitely have lost that game" type of threads.

    For the record, the Jets won a lot of close games under Herm Edwards. The Jets often came to play, often surprised experts or exceeded expectations, often looked like a very well coached football team. Let me list a few examples that come to mind:
    - Blanking Miami 24-0 in 01
    - fighting and clawing for a 1 point Sunday night win over the Colts in 01
    - sticking it to a tough Raider team to make the playoffs in the final week of 01
    - overtime win to open the season in Buffalo in 02
    - beating just about everyone in the second half of 02, including the Patriots & Packers at the end of the season to take the division, then PASTING the Colts in week one of the playoffs
    - beating the crap out of Miami twice in 04
    - Shocking the Chargers in the 04 playoffs

    OK, that's just a few that come to mind. There were others. Edwards teams were consistently among the lowest in the league in penalties. Several of his seasons they had ridiculously high takeaway/giveaway ratios. Most of the time (until last year) they played hard, and they won late in the season when it counted.

    Yes, time management was sometimes terrible. Yes, last year was a disaster, and the coach lost control of the team. Yes, he favored veterans too much and let them get away with too much. Yes, there were times he was too conservative. Yes, he said some stupid **** (but he also could -- at times -- say things that meant a lot to his players and -- sometimes --inspired his teams to play excellent football).

    Keep in mind, Mangini's team (and the great man himself) has already made some flubs. Tennesse should never have gotten back in that game in week one. A one minute drive that gives the ball back to New England at midfield just before half time is unacceptable -- well-coached football teams should not do that (but sometimes they do). Going down 24 nothing to a rather mediocre football team is unacceptable. There was poor play selection at times in week 2, IMO. And yesterday, the defense was not ready to play in the beginning of the game. His move to begin the game against the wind was very nearly a disaster (and make no mistake, win or lose, Herm would be getting crucified right now if he had done the same thing).

    The point is, well coached teams still make mistakes. But they win games. And the Jets did that quite a bit under Herm Edwards for his first 4 years in New York. It remains to be seen if Mangini will be able to match that success.

    Without a doubt, the two men are VERY different in their styles of coaching? BUT, and this is BIG BUT, there is more than one way to be successfull in coaching a football team. It's not ALL x's and o's -- and neither is it all pep talks and positive reinforcement. Just because Mangini is doing well (so far) and is different, doesn't mean Herm was terrible at all times.


    Was it time for Herm to go. Definitely. Am I optimistic about Mangini -- no question about it -- I AM.

    But let's stop all the revisionist history that's going on around here.
    Last edited by gaffneycatch; 09-25-2006 at 02:03 PM.

  2. #2
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    here is the single biggest difference between Herm and Mangini...

    Herm showed Zero improvement as a HC during his tenure here...Mangini has shown improvement every game...

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    I don't think its bashing if it is a comparison based on facts. "Herm s*cks" or "Herm is a moron" is not called for....but pointing out how different things seem based on what we're seeing is perfectly valid in my opinion.

  4. #4
    I think the biggest reason not to bash Herm anymore is -- no one cares. He's not the head coach of the Jets anymore.

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    I like Mangini and liked Herm.

    The point is, until Mangini gets us into the playoffs, once, twice, three times, it is all chatter and BS.

    BZ

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadringer
    here is the single biggest difference between Herm and Mangini...

    Herm showed Zero improvement as a HC during his tenure here...Mangini has shown improvement every game...
    Mangini has coached the team for THREE GAMES. Improvement? Herm's team improved from his first game to his third also.

    I agree that his teams showed an overall downhill trend over the five years he was here. And last year -- it was a joke. So, you're right -- that's a fair indictment of Herm and a reason to dismiss him. But I think many coaches fall victim to that -- to their team getting worse after a few years because the players tune them, the league figures them out, etc. And I think it's way to early to say Mangini is going to be any different because his team has improved from week 1 to week 3.
    Last edited by gaffneycatch; 09-25-2006 at 02:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadringer
    here is the single biggest difference between Herm and Mangini...

    Herm showed Zero improvement as a HC during his tenure here...Mangini has shown improvement every game...
    BINGO!!!! Excellent point.

    That was the number 1 problem with Herm. I was a big Herm fan early on, but he never improved. He had game management and clock management issues since the beginning but rather than spending the offseason trying to improve it (which can be done) he outsources it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetstream23
    I don't think its bashing if it is a comparison based on facts. "Herm s*cks" or "Herm is a moron" is not called for....but pointing out how different things seem based on what we're seeing is perfectly valid in my opinion.
    Agreed. I have no problems with threads that reasonably point out and discuss the differences. And I'm welcoming a lot of the differences myself. Like I said, I LOVE some of the things I've seen from this team that we never saw from Herm's.

    My thread is addressed towards threads with titles like "If Herm was our coach we never would have won that game." We won a number of games like yesterday's game when Herm was our coach. And a number of other games under Herm we never even let the team back into the game, like we did yesterday. It seems that some posters have very short memories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gaffneycatch
    Agreed. I have no problems with threads that reasonably point out and discuss the differences. And I'm welcoming a lot of the differences myself. Like I said, I LOVE some of the things I've seen from this team that we never saw from Herm's.

    My thread is addressed towards threads with titles like "If Herm was our coach we never would have won that game." We won a number of games like yesterday's game when Herm was our coach. And a number of other games under Herm we never even let the team back into the game, like we did yesterday. It seems that some posters have very short memories.
    Bottom line is it's Freedom of Speech! Just like you have every right to say you don't like threads bashing Hermie,others have every right to post their opinion! Why not just avoid threads you don't like?? Works for me!

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    Very good post Gaffney. I very much agree with you. Herm had his strong points and weaknesses as a coach. So does Mangini. I think overall Mangini is a much better coach and I have so much more confidence watching him on the sidelines over Herm.

    That being said I think that Herm was a good Mon-Sat coach although lacking in his discipline with the off season conditioning program. I think he did a great job when we were 0-5 turning the season around and not letting the team quit. I think his best coaching job was the day of the Green Bay game on the last game of the season keeping the team focused on beating Green Bay and not what was going on in other games and whether our game even meant anything.

    I think that as time went on he became a carictature of himself, and liked to listen to himself talk too much and he started to sound foolish and lost the team. His loyalty to "his" guys meant we were not putting the best team on the field every Sunday.

    It was time for him to go.

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    Mangini is currently coaching a team that lacks talent at a lot of key positions and is already overachieving. Herm coached a team that at times during his tenure was stacked with talent but underachieved. Plus, I can list for you just as many games that Herm lost that were based strictly on BAD COACHING. The examples used to knock Mangini in this thread came down to lack of execution by a specific player, specifically Nugent leaving 7 points on the field and Graham horribly shanking a punt to ruin our field position. I'm not going to sit here and argue about this extensively, but it is with good reason that a number of Jets fans feel that Mangini has already shown more promise in 3 games as a head coach as Edwards did in five years.

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    While the Herm bashing gets overdone, bleedin makes an excellent point as far as over-achieving versus underachieving. Aside from lack of adjustments and clock mgt, Herm's use of talent was mindboggling. Just look at Santana Moss and how he is used in Washington. Look at Cotchery this season for that matter. Despite so many promises of Martin and Jordan in the same backfield, we never saw it. Do you think Brad Smith and Leon Washington would have seen the field under herm? I can go on and on but IMO the lack of using/developing talent was a big reasaon we underachieved.

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    herm played to win by 3. mangini plays to win by as many as possible w/o taking unnecessary risks.

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    Herm won a lot of close games when he was a Jet coach. Games the Jets probably should have won by 20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LesterLyles
    While the Herm bashing gets overdone, bleedin makes an excellent point as far as over-achieving versus underachieving. Aside from lack of adjustments and clock mgt, Herm's use of talent was mindboggling. Just look at Santana Moss and how he is used in Washington. Look at Cotchery this season for that matter. Despite so many promises of Martin and Jordan in the same backfield, we never saw it. Do you think Brad Smith and Leon Washington would have seen the field under herm? I can go on and on but IMO the lack of using/developing talent was a big reasaon we underachieved.

    I agree LL that's why I always said Hermie had no clue! Just think had Jordan been made to feel a part of the running attack he may still be here and Martin may not be on the Pup list! Even in 02 he ran Martin with 2 high ankle sprains! Last year Martin continuted to run even though he was too hurt to practice! For what?? Stats! You have to play and develop your young players! Hermie never did that..Look at how long he kept Marvin and Mo at LB'er..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Queens Jet Fan
    I think that as time went on he became a carictature of himself, and liked to listen to himself talk too much and he started to sound foolish and lost the team.
    This is an excellent description of what happened. Good post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gaffneycatch
    This is an excellent description of what happened. Good post.
    This could be why this team is buying "SO MUCH" into what Mangini is doing. There seemed to be a void of true direction and leadership by the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beerfish
    Herm won a lot of close games when he was a Jet coach. Games the Jets probably should have won by 20.
    kind of like week 1. or yesterday's game.

    as for Herm, was it a close game in Miami Monday night in 04? or Indy playoffs in 03? Those are two examples, but we won convincingly under Herm a number of times.

    Mangini has yet to win a blowout. Which is understandable -- the guy has only been here for 3 friggin weeks. I'm sure it will come. Like I said, I have high hopes.

    But your post, Beer, is exactly the kind of revisionism I'm talking about.

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    i'm very happy with 'the mangini staff' (i think you have to judge staff vs. staff, because we really don't know what decisions the HC is/was making in most cases), but after 3 games, there are a few things that i think you can reasonably say that our new staff does better, and some of these are subjective:

    • handling players - i like that players now know that, to a man, if you don't play/perform, you won't be out there, no matter who you are. you might even be inactive.
    • offensive playcalling - even with little or no run game, we're moving the ball. some of that is due to a healthy chad, but the playcalling is definitely improved (and varied), IMO. watching KC/Cinci was closer to watching herm's jets than watching us now.
    • handling the media - i like the fact that the press isn't privy to everything, and that the injury reports/depth chart are shrouded in mystery. it doesn't help us win on sunday doing things the way we used to under herm.
    • preparedness - the team seemed better prepared to start the season. end of story. not because we won, but because i think we played up to our ability, or close. we did not do that last year.
    • in-game adjustments - this one is a huge difference, IMO - we just didn't seem to make those halftime, etc. adjustments to 'fix what was broken' under herm. and it sucked, because that was a BIG strength of our parcells teams. it seems to be back. we seem to find things in the first half to exploit in the second, and fix some things that were broken. now if we could just make the things that aren't broken stay unbroken (tennessee game!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by savage69
    I agree LL that's why I always said Hermie had no clue! Just think had Jordan been made to feel a part of the running attack he may still be here and Martin may not be on the Pup list! Even in 02 he ran Martin with 2 high ankle sprains! Last year Martin continuted to run even though he was too hurt to practice! For what?? Stats! You have to play and develop your young players! Hermie never did that..Look at how long he kept Marvin and Mo at LB'er..
    You've been barking up this tree for years, Savage...and, to an extent, I agree with you. Herm had his blind spots. They became greater and greater liabilities as time went on.

    Interesting, though, how on the one hand he had a team "stacked with talent," and on the other hand his veteran stars were over the hill. Not sure you can have it both ways.

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