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Thread: The Correct Debate: 3-4 vs 4-3

  1. #1
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    The Correct Debate: 3-4 vs 4-3

    I keep seeing this issue of Chad vs Kellen and the No. 1 quarterback position. This ship has sailed, and it is Chad's job to lose. Period.

    But the issues swirling around our defense, well that is another story. How long can we continue trying to fit a 3-4 with 4-3 personell. This is one situation I cannot understand, given how SMART Mangini is supposed to be. Why is he being so stubborn about this? Can he actually be happy with the results we've been seeing? He keeps telling us the personell just needs to get comfortable with this, but how long is this going to take? I have real concerns about the upcoming games we will play (Giants, Eagles, Bengals) and how we will fare against teams that can put points on the board.

    I just don't understand it.

  2. #2
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    I started another thread about this same thing.... I totally agree, the Jets are much better suited to play the 4-3.. Why continue to play the 3-4 and give up a huge amount of yards and points... It just is not working..... The bottom line is the wins

  3. #3
    We. Would. Suck. With. The. 4-3. Also.

  4. #4
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    I agree. Not sure we would be much better with the 4-3. Ellis is old and not the player he used to be, Robertson is ok. And we would have to start another D tackle...who? I would rather have our 4th LB on the field than our 4th DL...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato
    We. Would. Suck. With. The. 4-3. Also.
    As much as we do in the 3-4? I find that hard to believe.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeSauer
    As much as we do in the 3-4? I find that hard to believe.
    Well we line up in a 4-3 sometimes and the D still sucks.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato
    Well we line up in a 4-3 sometimes and the D still sucks.
    Thank you.. we don't line up 3 - 4 every play.. it's being worked out slowly.. only time will tell what's going to happen.. it's obviously not that simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CUJet
    Thank you.. we don't line up 3 - 4 every play.. it's being worked out slowly.. only time will tell what's going to happen.. it's obviously not that simple.
    So let's let the switching continue because it's not that simple? The players look confused as well as the DC. This is nuts guys. It's either/or
    guys, come on.
    My argument is that if this week Lynch runs through us and looks like Thomlinson, then we should do the 4-3 until next seaon when the right players can be brought in. This switching can't be helping them either.

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    I think the Jets are flat our committed to the 3-4 and they are going to pry people into those spots over the next few years which is too bad because although the 3-4 can be very effective it is way tougher to find all the right pieces.

    Vilma and Ellis this year and last are hurt by playing 3-4 and Thomas this year is being asked to do things that do not play to his strengths in my opinion.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beerfish
    I think the Jets are flat our committed to the 3-4 and they are going to pry people into those spots over the next few years which is too bad because although the 3-4 can be very effective it is way tougher to find all the right pieces.

    Vilma and Ellis this year and last are hurt by playing 3-4 and Thomas this year is being asked to do things that do not play to his strengths in my opinion.
    The main problem right now is that the pass rush isn't there. I don't think it would be different with a 4-3. Who would be the pass rusher?

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    Quote Originally Posted by murphklecko73
    I started another thread about this same thing.... I totally agree, the Jets are much better suited to play the 4-3.. Why continue to play the 3-4 and give up a huge amount of yards and points... It just is not working..... The bottom line is the wins
    No, they're not.

    First of all, we don't play a pure 3-4. We play a Hybrid 3-4/4-3/46 whatever the hell else will work for that game. And so far it hasn't mattered what type defense we play, as it sucks regardless.

    Why does the 4-3 fail? We have no Pass Rusher to pressure the QB in the 4-3 in the mold of John Abraham, and we only have one Defensive Tackle, who sucks in any defense we put him in.

    Not to mention the players we have just aren't very good. Hobson and Barton should not be starting for any Defense, and D-Rob has sucked equally in both formations. There's a reason why 5 of the last 6 years our Total Defense has ranked in the 20's.

    And the one year it looked decent was because Donnie Henderson's blitzing schemes caught the league by storm as it was never the same once people began to adjust to it. Hence why our Defense ranked 28th the next season. It also helped that the Jets had both Jason Ferguson and John Abraham in that year too.

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    Bryan Thomas can NOT play DE in a the 4-3. He simply cannot. That experiment was tried and tried again and failed MISERABLY.

    Ellis is a decent-to-good 4-3 end, Thomas is a terrible one. Then we have DRob who is better suited to play DT then NT, but who do we have to play next to him but one unproven bum after the other unproven (or tried and failed) bum.

    This D will be pathetic no matter what we run because we do not have the talent or beef on the DLine no matter what and that is where the entire foundation of the defense is found.

  13. #13
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    I was going to suggest this as topic #2, and then we could use the format for the draft, free agency, d-coordinators, whatever

  14. #14
    They already run a little bit of both.


    But you could debate who's worth keeping.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeSauer
    I keep seeing this issue of Chad vs Kellen and the No. 1 quarterback position. This ship has sailed, and it is Chad's job to lose. Period.

    But the issues swirling around our defense, well that is another story. How long can we continue trying to fit a 3-4 with 4-3 personell. This is one situation I cannot understand, given how SMART Mangini is supposed to be. Why is he being so stubborn about this? Can he actually be happy with the results we've been seeing? He keeps telling us the personell just needs to get comfortable with this, but how long is this going to take? I have real concerns about the upcoming games we will play (Giants, Eagles, Bengals) and how we will fare against teams that can put points on the board.

    I just don't understand it.
    I agree and when i pointed this out last year was pilloried as someone not wanting to Mangini a chance. I thought Mangini's primary strength was going to be his ability to adapt his schemes to the Jets personnel. I for one really don't see it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven0m
    No, they're not.

    First of all, we don't play a pure 3-4. We play a Hybrid 3-4/4-3/46 whatever the hell else will work for that game. And so far it hasn't mattered what type defense we play, as it sucks regardless.

    Why does the 4-3 fail? We have no Pass Rusher to pressure the QB in the 4-3 in the mold of John Abraham, and we only have one Defensive Tackle, who sucks in any defense we put him in.

    Not to mention the players we have just aren't very good. Hobson and Barton should not be starting for any Defense, and D-Rob has sucked equally in both formations. There's a reason why 5 of the last 6 years our Total Defense has ranked in the 20's.

    And the one year it looked decent was because Donnie Henderson's blitzing schemes caught the league by storm as it was never the same once people began to adjust to it. Hence why our Defense ranked 28th the next season. It also helped that the Jets had both Jason Ferguson and John Abraham in that year too.
    I agree with your post 100% However a great number of posters were saying four years ago that we had SB talent on defense an that it simply was being poorly coached that is why it is hard from some to realize we need an upgrade.....

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeSauer
    I keep seeing this issue of Chad vs Kellen and the No. 1 quarterback position. This ship has sailed, and it is Chad's job to lose. Period.

    But the issues swirling around our defense, well that is another story. How long can we continue trying to fit a 3-4 with 4-3 personell. This is one situation I cannot understand, given how SMART Mangini is supposed to be. Why is he being so stubborn about this? Can he actually be happy with the results we've been seeing? He keeps telling us the personell just needs to get comfortable with this, but how long is this going to take? I have real concerns about the upcoming games we will play (Giants, Eagles, Bengals) and how we will fare against teams that can put points on the board.

    I just don't understand it.

    Think about this, you put Robertson and Mosely inside with Ellis and Thomas on the outside, Vilma in the middle like in 04 with Hobson and Barton outside and we have ourselves a defense again.

  18. #18
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    The problem I see with this argument is simple. In 2005 we ran a 4-3 which was just plain awful. Since then we have been making the changes to the defense that involved subtracting 4-3 players and replacing them with 3-4 players. The fact is that the only player who would benefit from this would be Vilma and that's only a maybe as we would still have the same problem we did in 2005 and in the 3-4, no true NT.

    To look at the personnel, while both units are sketchy, we clearly have much more talent at LB than DL, so at least with the 3-4, we're getting more of those players on the field. In a 4-3 we'd likely shift back to the 2004 trio of Vilma, Barton and Hobson. On the DL we'd now have Bryan Thomas back at DE, where he has shown little to no ability to rush the passer, DRob back at 3 technique DT where he never lived up to the hype and Ellis back at his DE spot, which would pretty much be a wash. Then you've got Kenyon Coleman who in all likelihood, would play 3 Technique in the 4-3. Now do you play him next to Robertson and hope for the best? If not, then who do you start at NT, Pouha? That's a risky proposition. And then you have to decide what you do with Coleman. Maybe he starts at DT over Robertson, maybe they try keeping him at DE like Ellis does in both formations. Either way, the Jets personnel, particularly on the DL, do not have the look of a particularly good 4-3 alignment. I think in the end you'd end up with a formation that would be no different than what the Jets have when they blitz Thomas out of the 3-4.

  19. #19

    Zone vs. Man

    The problem is not only with the front 7 configuration. I don't have the games recorded, but if you look, many of the yards we gave up to the pass over the last two seasons were in zone coverage. In the 4th quarter against Miami, Green continually found wide open guys in the seem and picked up big yards. Its coaching, not just personnel.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slikmojet
    Think about this, you put Robertson and Mosely inside with Ellis and Thomas on the outside, Vilma in the middle like in 04 with Hobson and Barton outside and we have ourselves a defense again.
    Thomas has shown nothing as a 4-3 DE and there's no reason to believe that Mosley (or even Pouha for that matter) can handle the starting NT job in the 4-3. It won't look like the 2004 defense, it'll look much more like the 2005 defense. If we just shove someone into the NT spot, we'll end up with James Reed syndrome all over again and the LBs will start have OL on them every play. Plus when you consider the downgrade as a pass rusher from Thomas to Abraham, in all likelihood our front 7 would be just as bad if not worse than 2004.

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