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Thread: Tangini needs a great draft per PFT hack.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    tinstar I would argue that Brick has been just as good at LT as Cutler has been at QB. neither has been great, neither has been terrible. Both are solid starters, about B+ players right now with potential. Also what about Mangold?
    Cutler is exactly where i expected him to be.Brick came in to the league with the expectations that he would be an immediate starter and immediately solve the LT position of the team that drafted him for the next 10 yr.3 yrs later,Marcus Mcneil who supposedly had health red flags have 2 pro Bowls under his belt while Brick can't block his way out of a paper bag.


    Cutler was expected atleast by me,to sit on the bench for the 1st yr and learn the offense.I was on record saying as much while screaming from the top of my lungs that we should draft this player at 4.Considering the expectations of both Players entering the league,the fact that you give both players the same grade after what they have shown is an indication of Brick less than adequate play and an endorsement of Cutler.

    Thank you Bit.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    Cutler is exactly where i expected him to be.Brick came in to the league with the expectations that he would be an immediate starter and immediately solve the LT position of the team that drafted him for the next 10 yr.3 yrs later,Marcus Mcneil who supposedly had health red flags have 2 pro Bowls under his belt while Brick can't block his way out of a paper bag.


    Cutler was expected atleast by me,to sit on the bench for the 1st yr and learn the offense.I was on record saying as much while screaming from the top of my lungs that we should draft this player at 4.Considering the expectations of both Players entering the league,the fact that you give both players the same grade after what they have shown is an indication of Brick less than adequate play and an endorsement of Cutler.

    Thank you Bit.

    Totally disagree on Brick.

    He had a 6-8 game streak at the beginning of last year where he shut down the likes of Jason Taylor, Terrell Suggs, Osi Umenyiora, Justin Tuck, and Aaron Schoebel.

    Brick's only problems seem to be consistency and bulk (shouldn't be a problem seeing as that he said his goal is to show up to TC weighing around 320). You can already tell that he's added weight by his recent clip over at the Jets homepage.

    You also have to take into account that he had the likes of Adrien Clarke and Will Montgomery playing next to him all of last year. The addition of Faneca should do wonders for Ferguson's development.

    I'm looking for this season to be the year that Brick truly breaks out. We saw last year how a stud LG can be tremendous for a young LT. Joe Thomas borderline dominated in Cleveland last year and a big reason is because they went out and paid top dollar for Steinbach.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Totally disagree on Brick.

    He had a 6-8 game streak at the beginning of last year where he shut down the likes of Jason Taylor, Terrell Suggs, Osi Umenyiora, Justin Tuck, and Aaron Schoebel.

    Brick's only problems seem to be consistency and bulk (shouldn't be a problem seeing as that he said his goal is to show up to TC weighing around 320). You can already tell that he's added weight by his recent clip over at the Jets homepage.

    You also have to take into account that he had the likes of Adrien Clarke and Will Montgomery playing next to him all of last year. The addition of Faneca should do wonders for Ferguson's development.

    I'm looking for this season to be the year that Brick truly breaks out. We saw last year how a stud LG can be tremendous for a young LT. Joe Thomas borderline dominated in Cleveland last year and a big reason is because they went out and paid top dollar for Steinbach.
    Couldn't agree with you more. D'BRICK will be just fine...............

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcola View Post
    Tangini needs a great draft per PFT hack.

    http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn...c.php?t=395536
    Thanks, captain obvious!

  5. #25
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    a LT is all about consistency. if brick totally breaks down on 1 pass play per game and gives up a sack on that play, then he gives up an average of 16 sacks/season, which would be the worst LT performance in the nfl. brick needs work on every facet of the LT position: he needs better technique, better concentration, more strength in his arms and legs, and overall, more consistency. sure, an argument can be made that he needed more experience at the LG position to help with protection schemes, but that still doesn't excuse/explain why he allowed sacks to speed edge rushers who beat him on the outside.

    i don't think cutler is as good as the hype, and leinart clearly isn't. young clearly regressed last year and bush is turning into a scat back. if i could redraft for the jets i'd pick ngata and move on.

    qbs can have up and down games, but in the end, if qbs can score (ie, brett farve) their mistakes are more forgiven. for someone like pennington, his consistency does not produce points, so his mistakes are less forgiven.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    Cutler is exactly where i expected him to be.Brick came in to the league with the expectations that he would be an immediate starter and immediately solve the LT position of the team that drafted him for the next 10 yr.3 yrs later,Marcus Mcneil who supposedly had health red flags have 2 pro Bowls under his belt while Brick can't block his way out of a paper bag.


    Cutler was expected atleast by me,to sit on the bench for the 1st yr and learn the offense.I was on record saying as much while screaming from the top of my lungs that we should draft this player at 4.Considering the expectations of both Players entering the league,the fact that you give both players the same grade after what they have shown is an indication of Brick less than adequate play and an endorsement of Cutler.

    Thank you Bit.
    Tinstar, it is my opinion that your criticism of D'BRICK is way too harsh. "Cant block his way out of a paper bag" seems to be a bit unreasonable. D'BRICK had a 6-8 game stretch where he DOMINATED the opposing teams best DE. Comparing McNeil is unfair as well. D'BRICK was the first pick of a new regime. It would take a few season to get the right parts to fit and D'BRICK was the first of many parts to follow. McNeil has had the luxury of "fitting in" to a system that is already in place and successfull with a better than average QB and arguably the best RB of the past five years in LT. Not to mention that D'BRICK had to line up next to the WORST LG in the NFL after Kendall departed.

    As far as Cutler goes, he may turn out to be a good one. I dont think the Jets made a mistake by not selecting him. He has had much more to work with than Ferguson and the results have been extremly inconsistant.

    Look for D'BRICK to keep improving. He has a great work ethic/attitude for learning as seen last pre season working with former Pro Bowl OLmen in trainning camp.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Exactly what huge chacracter concerns are we talking about with McFadden?

    The guy bangs a couple of chicks and gets into a little scrap at a bar that he's apologized for on numerous occasions so now he's a cancer?

    Why should anyone be pissed inside or outside of the lockerroom if the Jets bring in a playmaker like DMC? I've heard leaders on the team like Cotchery, Revis, and Rhodes openly praise Tangini for bringing in quality talent throughout the offseason. If the Jets end up with arguably the best player in the '08 draft class, why would it cause a stir?

    I'd openly welcome McFadden on this team and I'm positive that I'm not alone on that.
    I never said he had huge character concerns,just that he does.Why on earth would a kid who has no money and can't keep his nose clean all of a sudden get 20+ mil in his pocket and become a saint.

    Listen Man i know this kid has talent,but so do Packman and Chris Henry and Travis Henry.

    Also,the last person to openly speak out against the Jets was Coles,and he had to settle for what they offered him.The reason he did was the person before him that spoke out against the Jets management got hung out to dry and then traded.It pays to keep your mouth shut and spout the company line.

    Hold your peace and let the lord fight your battles,or something like that.


    As for Brick,he couldn't run block coming into the NFL,and 2 yrs later he still can't.What's worst is the part of his game which was supposed to be his strength has been shut full of holes by any DE with more than 1 move.Brick is what he was,and what he is.While he sits on his butt during the off season and and make appearances,it's easy to gain weight.Once Mangini starts camp and those 3 hr practices kick in,let me see him hold that 320.Also,let me see him run block with any consistency so the Jets don't become a 1 handed team.

    Lastly,and I get a kick out of this Every time i read it.Why is it ok for Brick to need a quality LG for him to excel,but Robertson is a bum playing alongside the Likes of James Reed and a ?.The 1 season that kid played alongside a NT that produced in the scheme he was drafted for,he was at an almost Pro Bowl level.After this season,if Brick doesn't improve,what will be the excuse.At least Robertson showed his wares with Ferguson.

    Poor Mr Faneca.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    Tinstar, it is my opinion that your criticism of D'BRICK is way too harsh. "Cant block his way out of a paper bag" seems to be a bit unreasonable. D'BRICK had a 6-8 game stretch where he DOMINATED the opposing teams best DE. Comparing McNeil is unfair as well. D'BRICK was the first pick of a new regime. It would take a few season to get the right parts to fit and D'BRICK was the first of many parts to follow. McNeil has had the luxury of "fitting in" to a system that is already in place and successfull with a better than average QB and arguably the best RB of the past five years in LT. Not to mention that D'BRICK had to line up next to the WORST LG in the NFL after Kendall departed.

    As far as Cutler goes, he may turn out to be a good one. I dont think the Jets made a mistake by not selecting him. He has had much more to work with than Ferguson and the results have been extremly inconsistant.

    Look for D'BRICK to keep improving. He has a great work ethic/attitude for learning as seen last pre season working with former Pro Bowl OLmen in trainning camp.

    Cutler is a product of Mike Shanahan and the results are still favorable.That kid should never have replaced Jake(Can't remember his last name ) when he did.The Coach rushed him and he still has done ok.His 1st yr he had no receivers and his defense was falling apart around him.Last yr Marshall emerged ,but his defense totally collapsed.What good does it do if you score 24 points a game and the defense gives up 25.

    As far as Marcus Mcneil goes,that Kid made the Pro Bowl in his rookie season starting in a new offense installed by new HC Norv Turner.All those OL had to learn the offense and the blocking schemes .

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JiF View Post
    I hate seeing this. I see it so often from so many other posters.

    How do you know he is better then Kellen or Chad?

    The draft is a crapshoot. There are no guarantees. Matt Ryan is far far far from being a guarantee.

    IMO, this guy is an Alex Smith scenario all over again.

    Alex Smith had 1 decent stat yr in a gimmicky offense and got drafted 1st over all.That kid wasn't even old enough to shave.He was drafted base on his potential without a body of evidence to support his potential.

    Matt Ryan on the other hand has 3 + yrs in a pro style offense and was the unquestioned leader and best player on his team.He is rated where he is due to his potential backed up by a body of evidence.Matt Ryan's stats improved every single yr despite the cast around him declining.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    Out of his mouth,that's where.Mangini walked in the door preaching Character and competition.He jettisoned Mawae to proved just how firm he was going to be only to follow that up with the trading for Barlow who was a malcontent in San Fran.

    He followed that up by appointing Chad the starter at the combines going against his own competition at all positions garbage coming in the door.Throw in the Kendall junk from last yr and the Coles situation from this yr soon to be followed by Rhodes if he's not taken care of before before the end of this coming season.

    Now if he drafts Mcfadden it will have come full circle.We can talk about Bellichek all we want,but the HC we got talks out of the same side of his mouth that Bellichek does.
    We all sit here quoting the fact that Mangini wants "character" in his players. What exactly does he mean by this? Many think that means he is looking for choir boys. I don't think that's the case. I think he is looking for players with "FOOTBALL CHARACTER". I am talking about the guys who live, eat and breath football, the guys who always give 110% and the guys who are for the team first. No one ever said they had to be a good citizen.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    As for Brick,he couldn't run block coming into the NFL,and 2 yrs later he still can't.
    This isn't accurate. He's actually one of last year's better run blockers but that's not saying much.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    I never said he had huge character concerns,just that he does.Why on earth would a kid who has no money and can't keep his nose clean all of a sudden get 20+ mil in his pocket and become a saint.

    Listen Man i know this kid has talent,but so do Packman and Chris Henry and Travis Henry.

    Also,the last person to openly speak out against the Jets was Coles,and he had to settle for what they offered him.The reason he did was the person before him that spoke out against the Jets management got hung out to dry and then traded.It pays to keep your mouth shut and spout the company line.

    Hold your peace and let the lord fight your battles,or something like that.


    As for Brick,he couldn't run block coming into the NFL,and 2 yrs later he still can't.What's worst is the part of his game which was supposed to be his strength has been shut full of holes by any DE with more than 1 move.Brick is what he was,and what he is.While he sits on his butt during the off season and and make appearances,it's easy to gain weight.Once Mangini starts camp and those 3 hr practices kick in,let me see him hold that 320.Also,let me see him run block with any consistency so the Jets don't become a 1 handed team.

    Lastly,and I get a kick out of this Every time i read it.Why is it ok for Brick to need a quality LG for him to excel,but Robertson is a bum playing alongside the Likes of James Reed and a ?.The 1 season that kid played alongside a NT that produced in the scheme he was drafted for,he was at an almost Pro Bowl level.After this season,if Brick doesn't improve,what will be the excuse.At least Robertson showed his wares with Ferguson.

    Poor Mr Faneca.

    Adam Jones and Chris Henry are felons and get into numerous incidents off the field. Henry can't stay clean.

    How does McFadden compare to this group?

    The only character concerns I've heard regarding McFadden are derived from him possibly getting two girls pregnant and getting into a single scrape at a bar. How are those huge causes for concern? Why should that turn us away from an electric offensive playmaker?

    Again, do you really focus in on Brick during games? He's not a mauling force who will constantly drive you off the line but he's actually a very sound run blocker in space. He has also flashed shutdown pass blocking skills. Brick is in no way, shape, or form a bust. As long as he can keep his weight in the 310-315 range we should now be set on the left side. I think you're seriously downplaying the addition of Faneca.

    The argument for Robertson doesn't hold much merrit. He had to play next to James Reed for one season, why wasn't he dominating playing alongside the likes of John Abraham, Jason Ferguson, and Shaun Ellis? Where has he been in the 3-4 with solid bookends like Ellis and Coleman holding the fort? Dewayne has been given his fair shake here. He's had 6 years to prove his worth and he simply hasn't lived up to the billing. It's time to move on.

    You don't give up on a young LT with the skill and athleticism that Brick possesses in two years time. It's a marquee position.

    Even if Ferguson never becomes a franchise LT in the Ogden/Pace mold, as long as he's simply good, he'll be here for the next 10 years.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    If you notice,I have not mentioned a certain player from Arkansas.If Tangini takes this Player it will bring his whole in the door speech and his mantra to ruin.You have to live what you preach if you want respect and if you don't,you will soo lose the respect of those who matter most.

    Your team.
    .....or it could just expose the people who don't want to take unquestionably the best player in the draft because of a couple bar fights and having 2 children as the idiots that they are.

    His "Character Concerns" are extremely overblown and if Mangini is smart, they will see right through it. By most accounts he's actually a great person.

    Out of his mouth,that's where.Mangini walked in the door preaching Character and competition.He jettisoned Mawae to proved just how firm he was going to be only to follow that up with the trading for Barlow who was a malcontent in San Fran.
    Being a man of character DOES NOT mean being an angel with a perfect history. Abram Elam was charged with rape and found guilty of Sexual Battery. Justin Miller (allegedly) punched a woman in the face. But they're on the team. Why? Because their coachable players who day in and day out they work their asses off for the team. All Mangini means by eliminating men with Bad Character is that he doesn't want any "Cancers" on the team. McFadden's history is a couple bar fights and having 2 kids from 2 different mothers. Not being hard to coach, playing outside of the scheme, anything with serious criminal reprecussions, ect. Hell, his coaches and teammates do nothing but rave about the guy.

    Just because YOU misintrepreted him does not mean that he would be selling out by bringing in someone with "Questionable Character".

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
    Adam Jones and Chris Henry are felons and get into numerous incidents off the field. Henry can't stay clean.

    How does McFadden compare to this group?

    The only character concerns I've heard regarding McFadden are derived from him possibly getting two girls pregnant and getting into a single scrape at a bar. How are those huge causes for concern? Why should that turn us away from an electric offensive playmaker?

    Again, do you really focus in on Brick during games? He's not a mauling force who will constantly drive you off the line but he's actually a very sound run blocker in space. He has also flashed shutdown pass blocking skills. Brick is in no way, shape, or form a bust. As long as he can keep his weight in the 310-315 range we should now be set on the left side. I think you're seriously downplaying the addition of Faneca.

    The argument for Robertson doesn't hold much merrit. He had to play next to James Reed for one season, why wasn't he dominating playing alongside the likes of John Abraham, Jason Ferguson, and Shaun Ellis? Where has he been in the 3-4 with solid bookends like Ellis and Coleman holding the fort? Dewayne has been given his fair shake here. He's had 6 years to prove his worth and he simply hasn't lived up to the billing. It's time to move on.

    You don't give up on a young LT with the skill and athleticism that Brick possesses in two years time. It's a marquee position.

    Even if Ferguson never becomes a franchise LT in the Ogden/Pace mold, as long as he's simply good, he'll be here for the next 10 years.

    1 - I didn't say Mcfadden's issues were huge,just that there existed and because of em,i would not be willing to invest 20+ mil in him in NY.

    2 - You might as well realize that i am never going to be happy with Ferguson unless he end up in the HOF.Even then,i might still not be happy with him.We should have drafted Jay Cutler,and until that problem is fixed,this player will always receive scrutiny of the highest form from me.I don't want to give up on Brick,but i want to see improvement.I have no choice but to hope he excels.

    3 - I don't want to keep Robertson.he doesn't fit Mangini's defense and that fine.Forget the last 2 yrs,because the kid has been miscast.Now if you concentrate on his 1st 3 yrs,He was the equal of What Ferguson has been thus far.Robertson is a penetrating type DT.What that means is for him to be effective the DT next to him have to be able to stop the run while he goes up the field.His 1st yr he was forced to learn on the fly.His 2nd yr was an almost pro bowl yr with Ferguson doing his job.His 3rd yr,Ferguson leaves for Dallas and James Reed can't do what Ferguson did because he was the same type of DT as Robertson only smaller and with less ability.You say this kid has been given every opportunity,but was it to succeed or to fail.

  15. #35
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    Drew Coleman is going to turn out to have been a good/very good pick in Round 6 of the 2006 draft. He's not intimidated and he makes plays. I like what I see in him and I bet he develops into an integral part of the Jets secondary.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    I didn't read that article and i don't need too to agree with what you posted is that writer's belief.

    This is Tangini's (Mangini)3rd draft,and thus far,only Harris and Revis and too a large extent due to his special teams exploits,Washington has shown the evidence of future stardom.Despite what Jet fans want to believe,Brick ferguson has not lived up to his status especially considering the Jets passed on Jay Cutler considered a Rising Star.

    When you consider all the picks we had over the last 2 yrs,and the Players we have to get rid of because of the scheme we're using,and where they were drafted,This draft becomes of the utmost importance to this Tangini regime.
    If the Jets can find a QB in this coming draft that can stabilize the Position for the next 10 yrs or so,it would go along way improving the overall view of the Tangini Era.
    ... ... ... ...


    ... there are very few people who's posts i disagree with more ...

    ... you seem to take umbrage with the article that you didn't read, yet support the authors point ??? ...

    ... in your second paragraph you give MT & EM props for taking revis & harris in last years draft - then you contradict that by condemning them in the 3rd paragraph for giving up picks over the last 2 years ... FYI - without trading away picks last season there is neither revis nor harris ...

    ... you grudgingly attempt to halfway give them credit for washington - maybe ...

    ... in your final paragraph you conclude that drafting a franchise qb (while there is a qb on the roster that will start for us next season that we are yet to find out if he is the qb of the next 10 years, if he is a total bust, or if he falls somewhere in between ) is going to be the determining factor in if MT & EM are successful ... ... i can't imagine someone being further off the mark ...




    l_j_r

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamont_jordan_rules View Post
    ... ... ... ...


    ... there are very few people who's posts i disagree with more ...

    ... you seem to take umbrage with the article that you didn't read, yet support the authors point ??? ...

    ... in your second paragraph you give MT & EM props for taking revis & harris in last years draft - then you contradict that by condemning them in the 3rd paragraph for giving up picks over the last 2 years ... FYI - without trading away picks last season there is neither revis nor harris ...

    ... you grudgingly attempt to halfway give them credit for washington - maybe ...

    ... in your final paragraph you conclude that drafting a franchise qb (while there is a qb on the roster that will start for us next season that we are yet to find out if he is the qb of the next 10 years, if he is a total bust, or if he falls somewhere in between ) is going to be the determining factor in if MT & EM are successful ... ... i can't imagine someone being further off the mark ...




    l_j_r

    It's cool man.By the way,do you believe that this regime needs a big draft or not.

    2 more losing seasons with no stability at QB and you can take it to the bank that these guys will be fired.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    It's cool man.By the way,do you believe that this regime needs a big draft or not.

    2 more losing seasons with no stability at QB and you can take it to the bank that these guys will be fired.
    You know when I think about his vote of confidence, I can't help thinking back to the one game at Miami where he was seem storming out of the stadium before the game was even over. I am certain that I read that. That was when we had like 4 starting QBs. He says he is a patient man, but I can guarantee he wants an exciting product. Bringing in a QB that will air it out will be some excitement to what has been a very bland offense (for years). Hell it might even increase the fan base.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    It's cool man.
    ... while i disagree with you views on our beloved franchise i respect your restraint with opposing viewpoints ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    By the way,do you believe that this regime needs a big draft or not.
    ... no ...

    ... i do EXPECT them to have their 3rd big draft in a row, however ...



    Quote Originally Posted by Tinstar View Post
    2 more losing seasons with no stability at QB and you can take it to the bank that these guys will be fired.
    ... again, i would argue with your blanket statement ...

    ... there certainly would be a chance of that happening - we all will know a lot more about the mindset of MT & EM and where they see this team heading at the end of the month ...

    ... i also have difficulty picking out if you are saying 2 more losing seasons, or no stability at qb, or both of these things happening together are what you believe would be what leads to MT & EM's death knell ? ...

    ... if it happens that they are fired then our team would have made a terrible mistake ... jmo ...




    l_j_r

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcola View Post
    You know when I think about his vote of confidence, I can't help thinking back to the one game at Miami where he was seem storming out of the stadium before the game was even over. I am certain that I read that. That was when we had like 4 starting QBs. He says he is a patient man, but I can guarantee he wants an exciting product. Bringing in a QB that will air it out will be some excitement to what has been a very bland offense (for years). Hell it might even increase the fan base.

    Wasn't Billick given a vote of confidence by his owner during last season only to be promptly fired at season's end.A vote of confidence is like the kiss of death in the sporting world.

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