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Thread: The Big Question Right Now Is Where Are Their Heads?

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    The Big Question Right Now Is Where Are Their Heads?

    The Jets are rattled right now. Universal deer in the headlights. They are on a LONG plane ride home right now.

    But how did this happen? The Jets dissembled the core of their team, replacing two very popular players in the lockrroom in Pennington and Vilma - guys that were integral to the character and chemistry of the team. The Jets cobbled together expensive spare parts from elsewhere, even if those parts are all-pros. The team hasn't had a lot of time to gel, and the arrival of Favre magnified the NY sports media spotlight. The Jets believed they were in a win-now mode and building a competitive team. It has become apparent that Favre has had a ton of trouble adjusting to the offense and in turn, the offense to him. They are just so out of sync. Connected with that is the defense and ST. The entire team has a ton of high profile and very different players. Some holdovers like prideful holdovers like Coles, and many new faces like Faneca, Woody, Pace, Jenkins and Favre, just don't seem to have any sort of gameday chemistry, and I only wonder what the locker room is like after these two losses. Who is stepping up? Who's leading? Who's the captain of this ship? Favre is not the type.

    Lombardi said that winning is contagious, and I'm afraid the losing this team has done of late also is contagious. It bleeds over from week to week. It has guys like Faneca and Favre second guess their decisions, and maybe just start looking paycheck to paycheck.

    To top it off, the team really has no elder statesman to level the ship. No one like Parcells...

    Mangini doesn't have the equity being so young to do it.

    If you think, the Jets have looked totally out of whack since the 3rd or 4th quarter of the Miami game, with the major scare that came down to the last play. Relief right?

    Then, the Jets invested so much import into the Patriots game, came out and just played poor enough to let the Patriots dink and dunk their way to victory. The Jets were emotionally spent, and devastated after that loss. They bought into the hype, and a punk named Cassel popped the bubble.

    Tonight was nothing short of a nationally televised flogging: the Jets were beaten up physically and embarrassed operationally. To add to the insult, there are injuries to the fulcrum on the defense, with Jenkins, and to Favre on offense. Pulling him in the 4th may have had something to do with the injury in addition to the game being out of reach.

    Coming out of this, I don't know how they can do it. They have been exposed as frauds. Well-paid frauds. Guys that don't play crisp, watchable football. They are playing like a 4-12 squad. Or a squad that doesn't know it is the regular season and the games count.

    Now that its over, the team is up ****s creek. Its usually too early for a gut check, but if ever there was a time, now is it. Now is the time to find the paddle. How much does Favre want to learn the playbook? How much does Coles want to play with Favre? How much does Faneca really have in the tank? Can the defense make itself look better than it did if it must face any stretch without Jenkins? Just how important exactly is Jenkins to the defense? Who's the punter? The questions are endless.

    The next few weeks can't come and go slow enough. They need time to work on the kinks, but the mental state after the shellacking they took tonight is going to hurt.

    Will they be able to get over this? Or will they be doomed by their own shattered psyches? Where are their heads after a pathetic loss like this, and the pathetic last one?
    Last edited by Darth Vader; 09-23-2008 at 03:09 AM.

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    Jets have no PASS RUSH, it's disgusting! My God, I can't put a finger on it! Phillup Rivers has 4-5 seconds to throw. I HATE THE 3-4, it FVCKING SUCKS! I think our secondary is good, despite getting torched and blowing some coverages. But I think we have the type of corners that can do a great job if D-Line steps up. Oh, I hate Eric Smith too. He's not athletic, IMO. If we don't get a good rush up front from our D-line vs. Cardinals, K. Warner, Boldin & Fitzgerald will have a field day! 1-3?
    Last edited by BXJETSBULLY; 09-23-2008 at 03:21 AM.

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    Doesnt help when we only have 3 guys rushing the passer and our back up NT getting manhandled like theres no tomorrow.

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    Darth one could only hope the guys will suck it up and play their asses off next week. BUT with that being said we are going up aganist the best WR tandem in the NFL and they will score some points and they will show Jets fans another piece to the puzzle that we have been missing for alot of years.

    Im not sure if anyone realises this but this team has not had an every day deep threat since Wesley Walker !! Thats is about as sad as it gets. We are miserable on offense and will continue to be. Every once in a while one of our Wideouts makes a great play that gives some Jets fans the false idea that they are some kind of Superstar who should be mentioned with the top wide outs in the NFL. When in truth our Wideouts are in the bottom Tier of the league. This along with a mediocre O-Line and a slor RB makes it painfully easy for Defenses to blitz the living hell out of us. Hell If I were a coach I would Blitz Favre on every single play. I really think its time for Jets fans to look at our offensive talent for what it is. Bottom Tier.

    Mangini putting Clemens in tonight was about the dumbest move he could have possibly done. Ratliff should have been the guy. Clemens is a done deal. I would have loved to see What Rat would do in a real game atmosphere. God awefull clemens even throws picks aganist a prevent. How bad does it have to get with this guy ?

  5. #5
    Yeah we are not in great shape right now. Really we need a bye week in week 3 and not in week 4. When you bring in so many new players and your coach cant unify the team around something or someone it is very hard to make it work when things go south and things went deep south for the last two weeks. Right now, and its only 3 weeks in which is too early to say anything, the spending spree hasnt paid off. Damien Woody looks overwhelmed. Alan Faneca looks old. Calvin Pace is basically pulling Bryan Thomas type play. Brett Favre looks lost. Kris Jenkins right now is the only guy worth the money and hes hurt. The Jets have to right this ship this week. If our team is sitting at 1-3 it isnt over, but with Buffalo at 4-0 its going to be really bad.

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    Imo, I think this is why last weeks loss was so big.

    Losing to the Bradyless Pats was huge. There's simply no way around it. The players are human too, all the "slaughter the pig" mentality that permeated the board 2 weeks ago surely had to enter the players mind.

    Finally, we had a better team then the Pats. We were supposed to win. I bet we haven't been favored against the Pats since 2001.

    To come out and lay a conservative, fraidy cat egg like we did last week not only had to be emotionally deflating, but Mangini's scared coaching style had to send a confidence busting message to a team with SB aspirations..

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    Quote Originally Posted by BXJETSBULLY View Post
    Jets have no PASS RUSH, it's disgusting! My God, I can't put a finger on it! Phillup Rivers has 4-5 seconds to throw. I HATE THE 3-4, it FVCKING SUCKS! I think our secondary is good, despite getting torched and blowing some coverages. But I think we have the type of corners that can do a great job if D-Line steps up. Oh, I hate Eric Smith too. He's not athletic, IMO. If we don't get a good rush up front from our D-line vs. Cardinals, K. Warner, Boldin & Fitzgerald will have a field day! 1-3?
    The Jets had no pass rush for ONE GAME>>>>>

    God, TX would have a hey day with this stuff...

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    Not to be optimistic, because I am not sure there is anything to look forward to...but if you didnt know this game was going to look this way...you are crazy.

    I knew blow out the second Denver pulled off that win. Not a big deal. Problem is, we dont look promising. Especially without Kris Jenkins.

    So, I dont take much from this game then that. Without Kris Jenkins we are in bad shape.

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    Regarding the thread title...I know where Mangini's head is. I hate his press conferences after losses.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason423 View Post
    its only 3 weeks in which is too early to say anything, the spending spree hasnt paid off. Damien Woody looks overwhelmed. Alan Faneca looks old. Calvin Pace is basically pulling Bryan Thomas type play. Brett Favre looks lost. Kris Jenkins right now is the only guy worth the money and hes hurt. The Jets have to right this ship this week. If our team is sitting at 1-3 it isnt over, but
    this is exactly it, or pretty close. the team is not on the same page, and it shows on the field.

    the team plays unsharp, mistake-prone, totally unclutch ball.

    look at a key statistic from the game:

    third down conversion rates

    Jets - 1 for 8 12% (blasphemous)
    SD - 9 for 13 67% (unheard of)

    we put them in 3rd down often, and did really well on 1st and 2nd down. but we could NOT stop them on 3rd down. and for our life, we could move the ball until it came down to converting...FDs total were pretty even 21-20 in our favor. ours were clearly not coming on 3rd down.

    you can't win in the nfl if you can't convert in clutch situations, and likewise if you can't stop the opponent on 3rd down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
    this is exactly it, or pretty close. the team is not on the same page, and it shows on the field.

    the team plays unsharp, mistake-prone, totally unclutch ball.

    look at a key statistic from the game:

    third down conversion rates

    Jets - 1 for 8 12% (blasphemous)
    SD - 9 for 13 67% (unheard of)

    we put them in 3rd down often, and did really well on 1st and 2nd down. but we could NOT stop them on 3rd down. and for our life, we could move the ball until it came down to converting...FDs total were pretty even 21-20 in our favor. ours were clearly not coming on 3rd down.

    you can't win in the nfl if you can't convert in clutch situations, and likewise if you can't stop the opponent on 3rd down.
    Ha.. Made that point in another thread somewhere. I think a lot of this looks worse then it does because of the failure in clutch spots, poor special teams play, inconsistency overall on offense and maybe most importantly the complete mismanagement of momentum. We aren't doing the things that win games, but we are doing ok in most other aspects of the game. The encouraging thing is that we don't have a fundamental weakness like we did last year in the trenches.

    For instance, I know Brett put up some garbage time stats the last game, but for the year you look at his stats and are kind of surprised how ok they are, given how bad he's looked at times. The problem is when he's been bad, he's been really bad and overall very inconsistent. Thomas Jones is similiar, all I remember are the goal line failure and now the fumble, but out of feature backs getting 15+ carries a game, he's top 10 in YPC.

    Same with the defense in reverse. We remember the back to back to back sacks against Cassell at start of the third, but forget we didn't wiff him the rest of the game. (Ellis was later credited with a sack for 0 loss but face masked him in the process). Moments of greatness but droughts of mediocre at best play.

    Momentum is probably the biggest issue. Last night we got the pick 6 and dropped an INT on the next drive. Just killer, gave up a chance to put an early stake in their heart. Then they get going after converting a third and 8 and third and 10, but the defense stiffened and held them to a FG. Momentum should be ours again yet we come out and get a gift on a dropped pick 6 only to follow it up on the very next play with a fumble and return to the red zone. WTF?

    Both of the last two weeks we got a 4th quarter momentum and gave it right back. Against NE to pull us within 6 against with a TD and then watch Matt Cassell move it right down the field on our D to seal the game with a FG. We stop them there we probably win.

    Last night we get the TD to make it 38-20, collect the onside kick, hit the big play to get first and goal and immediately give up the sack. Prior to this the monday night miracle had crossed my mind. To add insult to injury we kick the FG, pull within 2 scores and get them in third 5 only to see them hit a 60 yard pass play and put us out of our misery.

    A lot of rambling to say that there's a lot of encouraging things happening out there and some understandable explanations for some of the deficiencies (mostly Favre). The problem seems to be that we pick the worst times to play our worst and a lot of times that comes down to attitude and coaching.

    In short, we don't know how to win and that was probably most blatantly evident week 1 when we almost let Miami steal that game from us.
    Last edited by CTM; 09-23-2008 at 08:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTM View Post
    Ha.. Made that point in another thread somewhere. I think a lot of this looks worse then it does because of the failure in clutch spots, poor special teams play, inconsistency overall on offense and maybe most importantly the complete mismanagement of momentum. We aren't doing the things that win games, but we are doing ok in most other aspects of the game. The encouraging thing is that we don't have a fundamental weakness like we did last year in the trenches.

    For instance, I know Brett put up some garbage time stats the last game, but for the year you look at his stats and are kind of surprised how ok they are, given how bad he's looked at times. The problem is when he's been bad, he's been really bad and overall very inconsistent. Thomas Jones is similiar, all I remember are the goal line failure and now the fumble, but out of feature backs getting 15+ carries a game, he's top 10 in YPC.

    Same with the defense in reverse. We remember the back to back to back sacks against Cassell at start of the third, but forget we didn't wiff him the rest of the game. (Ellis was later credited with a sack for 0 loss but face masked him in the process). Moments of greatness but droughts of mediocre at best play.

    Momentum is probably the biggest issue. Last night we got the pick 6 and dropped an INT on the next drive. Just killer, gave up a chance to put an early stake in their heart. Then they get going after converting a third and 8 and third and 10, but the defense stiffened and held them to a FG. Momentum should be ours again yet we come out and get a gift on a dropped pick 6 only to follow it up on the very next play with a fumble and return to the red zone. WTF?

    Both of the last two weeks we got a 4th quarter momentum and gave it right back. Against NE to pull us within 6 against with a TD and then watch Matt Cassell move it right down the field on our D to seal the game with a FG. We stop them there we probably win.

    Last night we get the TD to make it 38-20, collect the onside kick, hit the big play to get first and goal and immediately give up the sack. Prior to this the monday night miracle had crossed my mind. To add insult to injury we kick the FG, pull within 2 scores and et them in third 5 only to see them hit a 60 yard pass play and put us out of our misery.

    A lot of rambling to say that there's a lot of encouraging things happening out there and some understandable explanations for some of the deficiencies (mostly Favre). The problem seems to be that we pick the worst times to play our worst and a lot of times that comes down to attitude and coaching.

    In short, we don't know how to win and that was probably most blatantly evident week 1 when we almost let Miami steal that game from us.
    Agree completely about momentum and mismanagement. I've defended Mangini in the past, but I'm starting to see what you and other posters have been saying all along: that the team has inherited Mangini's style. That is NOT a good thing, because it means that instead of just going out and playing pumped-up, emotional, smashmouth, tear-someone's-head-off-and-bathe-in-their-blood football, every player is just a pawn in Mangini's chess game. Football becomes cerebral rather than emotional. Players are thinking rather than catching, or throwing, or blocking, or tackling--in other words, they're thinking instead of playing football.

    The most disturbing thing about this season was last night, when Tirico related the conversation he had with Favre, in which Favre said he was distressed by how the team never celebrated.

    You can assign all sorts of labels or causes to it: poor coaching, bad gameplanning or playcalling, vanilla schemes, lack of intensity, lack of identity--whatever you call it, it's the same thing. This team looks like a bunch of guys going through the motions and earning a paycheck, not a bunch of proud, confident athletes in the prime of their lives who hit people in the mouth and love every second of it.

    Someone put it best in another thread: Mangini would make a great manager. But this isn't an office. It's a football team.
    Last edited by dbatesman; 09-23-2008 at 09:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbatesman View Post
    Agree completely about momentum and mismanagement. I've defended Mangini in the past, but I'm starting to see what you and other posters have been saying all along: that the team has inherited Mangini's style. That is NOT a good thing, because it means that instead of just going out and playing pumped-up, emotional, smashmouth, tear-someone's-head-off-and-bathe-in-their-blood football, every player is just a pawn in Mangini's chess game. Football becomes cerebral rather than emotional. Players are think rather than catching, or throwing, or blocking, or tackling--in other words, they're thinking instead of playing football.

    The most disturbing thing about this season was last night, when Tirico related the conversation he had with Favre, in which Favre said he was distressed by how the team never celebrated.

    You can assign all sorts of labels or causes to it: poor coaching, bad gameplanning or playcalling, vanilla schemes, lack of intensity, lack of identity--whatever you call it, it's the same thing. This team looks like a bunch of guys going through the motions and earning a paycheck, not a bunch of proud, confident athletes in the prime of their lives who hit people in the mouth and love every second of it.

    Someone put it best in another thread: Mangini would make a great manager. But this isn't an office. It's a football team.
    Good line.

    My first concern about Mangini when he was hired was that he was too firm a believer in the "Patriot way", which is just about everything you described. My problem however is that the "Patriot way" never worked very well until the drafted an all time QB in the 6th round. They had lucked into one of the greatest draft prizes in modern history, and walked around thinking it was entirely the system and not the players who were responsible for the success. Listening to Mangini you got the sense that he thought brining in a bunch of high character, intelligent guys who liked playing football was all he needed to do to be successful. 2006 reinforced that notion, and as much as I loved the break from the MO that was the 2007 draft, we still approached FA in the same manner and as a result fielded a woefully undermanned team.

    To his credit, but once again following in the Pats footprints, we reversed trend this year and went out and got players, resulting in a talented team but one that doesn't seem to have a winners mentality. This is the coaches fault I think. Frankly Mangini lacks BB's ruthlessness and the team is softer then the Pats as a result. Playing football as a chess game is ok, but you must have a killer instinct and confidence that I don't think Mangini has.

    Just the fact that Mangini appears to have caved to the media and fans so easily this week should speak volumes about Mangini the man. Think Parcells would've done that?
    Last edited by CTM; 09-23-2008 at 08:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTM View Post
    Ha.. Made that point in another thread somewhere. I think a lot of this looks worse then it does because of the failure in clutch spots, poor special teams play, inconsistency overall on offense and maybe most importantly the complete mismanagement of momentum. We aren't doing the things that win games, but we are doing ok in most other aspects of the game. The encouraging thing is that we don't have a fundamental weakness like we did last year in the trenches.

    For instance, I know Brett put up some garbage time stats the last game, but for the year you look at his stats and are kind of surprised how ok they are, given how bad he's looked at times. The problem is when he's been bad, he's been really bad and overall very inconsistent. Thomas Jones is similiar, all I remember are the goal line failure and now the fumble, but out of feature backs getting 15+ carries a game, he's top 10 in YPC.

    Same with the defense in reverse. We remember the back to back to back sacks against Cassell at start of the third, but forget we didn't wiff him the rest of the game. (Ellis was later credited with a sack for 0 loss but face masked him in the process). Moments of greatness but droughts of mediocre at best play.

    Momentum is probably the biggest issue. Last night we got the pick 6 and dropped an INT on the next drive. Just killer, gave up a chance to put an early stake in their heart. Then they get going after converting a third and 8 and third and 10, but the defense stiffened and held them to a FG. Momentum should be ours again yet we come out and get a gift on a dropped pick 6 only to follow it up on the very next play with a fumble and return to the red zone. WTF?

    Both of the last two weeks we got a 4th quarter momentum and gave it right back. Against NE to pull us within 6 against with a TD and then watch Matt Cassell move it right down the field on our D to seal the game with a FG. We stop them there we probably win.

    Last night we get the TD to make it 38-20, collect the onside kick, hit the big play to get first and goal and immediately give up the sack. Prior to this the monday night miracle had crossed my mind. To add insult to injury we kick the FG, pull within 2 scores and get them in third 5 only to see them hit a 60 yard pass play and put us out of our misery.

    A lot of rambling to say that there's a lot of encouraging things happening out there and some understandable explanations for some of the deficiencies (mostly Favre). The problem seems to be that we pick the worst times to play our worst and a lot of times that comes down to attitude and coaching.

    In short, we don't know how to win and that was probably most blatantly evident week 1 when we almost let Miami steal that game from us.
    this is some good stuff chan. i haven't been around the boards today so i haven't read everything, so sorry about not reading it.

    I think your right to bring up the bonanza plays that skew the scoreboard or the statline. and the bottomline is that those plays are the clutch plays that actually define drives, games, seasons. When they are strung together in chains, you have "good football", you have good drives, you are able to pull out games or finish (one of those dogmatic Manginiisms) opponents when they're down, you are able to put together a season worthy of respect by your rivals and peers.

    It seems inconsequential that such a small thing, like a 3rd down conversion can do that. but they can. The small things add up. Just like the big bonanza plays like a pick-6 or a 90 yard KO return, a 60 catch and run, a FF/FR, an onside kick done well.

    but i really don't know if this, again comes down to "coaching" per se. There are two things that IMO fall on Mangini from MNF.

    • The Onside Kick, which many here forgive, but I, a Mangini defender, will tell you flat out, that was just terrible timing, and in an economic sense, waaaaay too risky given circumstances. We saw the risk capitalized. People say if it works he's a genius. That's not true. If it works, he's still a gambler, and gambling isn't sustainable in the long-run. Gamblers win, only to lose it back to the house.
    • And two: after the sequence of penalties on the two-point try that brought us to the quarter yard mark, IMO it was unforgiveable not to - after the whole debate last week about 3 GL runs - not to put Jones in their to punch it in. NOt even to have Jones or LW in the backfield for the running option, for Play Action!, or to keep the defense honest.


    Those were the two really egregious errors that IMO fall on the coaching staff. Not all on Mangini, after all you have Westhoff in cahoots on the ST calls, and Callahan /Schottenheimer with the input on O.

    Again, alot of what we are seeing is purely execution, operational stuff.

    At some point it will have to go up the chain of command, but at this point, you can't blame Mangini for all of the poor execution.

    Remember back to the days when the Jets were a contender with Curtis and Mawae, and Pennington. We played crisp football. We executed well. We were in games when healthy.

    Herm coached that team. The point is, execution is one of those things. The players have to play the game too. The coach can't complete the pass, and he doesn't throw the int's or cause the fumbles, or fall down on a goalline drop, leaving a slow FB wide open for the TD. (well, i do question why smith is even on any defensive package outside of ST)
    Last edited by Darth Vader; 09-23-2008 at 09:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTM View Post
    Good line.

    My first concern about Mangini when he was hired was that he was too firm a believer in the "Patriot way", which is just about everything you described. My problem however is that the "Patriot way" never worked very well until the drafted an all time QB in the 6th round. They had lucked into one of the greatest draft prizes in modern history, and walked around thinking it was entirely the system and not the players who were responsible for the success. Listening to Mangini you got the sense that he thought brining in a bunch of high character, intelligent guys who liked playing football was all he needed to do to be successful. 2006 reinforced that notion, and as much as I loved the break from the MO that was the 2007 draft, we still approached FA in the same manner and as a result fielded a woefully undermanned team.

    To his credit, but once again following in the Pats footprints, we reversed trend this year and went out and got players, resulting in a talented team but one that doesn't seem to have a winners mentality. This is the coaches fault I think. Frankly Mangini lacks BB's ruthlessness and the team is softer then the Pats as a result. Playing football as a chess game is ok, but you must have a killer instinct and confidence that I don't think Mangini has.

    Just the fact that Mangini appears to have caved to the media and fans so easily this week should speak volumes about Mangini the man. Think Parcells would've done that?
    Agreed, especially about the bolded part. It's all about the system for him--if everyone goes where they're supposed to go and does what they're supposed to do, we'll win. That's fine, discipline is a huge part of the game. But football also needs an element of passion and ferocity to it that I don't see this team possessing. That's why we don't see headhunting in the secondary, or celebrations after a big play, or passion and confidence on the field. Mangini has coached all that out of the players, and convinced them that they're just cogs in a machine. He needs to drop all his ingenious little gameplans and turn these guys loose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbatesman View Post
    Agreed, especially about the bolded part. It's all about the system for him--if everyone goes where they're supposed to go and does what they're supposed to do, we'll win. That's fine, discipline is a huge part of the game. But football also needs an element of passion and ferocity to it that I don't see this team possessing. That's why we don't see headhunting in the secondary, or celebrations after a big play, or passion and confidence on the field. Mangini has coached all that out of the players, and convinced them that they're just cogs in a machine. He needs to drop all his ingenious little gameplans and turn these guys loose.
    Mangini is stuck in a dogma. He's a disciple of dogma.

    Now, don't get me wrong, it's worked for some. But it takes T-I-M-E. It takes time to accumulate the marque players, the role players, and it takes time for them to learn the system and respond as a single organism.

    It takes organizational continuity. You can't fire the guy after three years if you hire a guy to establish a system.

    There's only one way to hsten the process, and that is to find the gems, a true star. Bill Parcells had LT. The Greatest. BB has Brady, and others on defense that he's acquired. But look how long it took BB. It took years of marginal success.

    Mangini got all these players in rush in one offseason, and favre a month before the season started, he took from off the couch. Time isn't just a long-run thing.

    Teams like this need time to get to know itself.

    Right now, putting these guys out on Monday night is like serving a plate of raw carrots at Emeril's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
    Mangini is stuck in a dogma. He's a disciple of dogma.

    Now, don't get me wrong, it's worked for some. But it takes T-I-M-E. It takes time to accumulate the marque players, the role players, and it takes time for them to learn the system and respond as a single organism.

    It takes organizational continuity. You can't fire the guy after three years if you hire a guy to establish a system.

    There's only one way to hsten the process, and that is to find the gems, a true star. Bill Parcells had LT. The Greatest. BB has Brady, and others on defense that he's acquired. But look how long it took BB. It took years of marginal success.

    Mangini got all these players in rush in one offseason, and favre a month before the season started, he took from off the couch. Time isn't just a long-run thing.

    Teams like this need time to get to know itself.

    Right now, putting these guys out on Monday night is like serving a plate of raw carrots at Emeril's.
    I actually agree with you too, DV...I'm not calling for Mangini's head. But the lack of intensity is kind of disturbing. If the system is limiting aggression, then change the system, you know?

  18. #18
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    I don't know where their heads are, but somebody better attach some fricken' laser beams to the top of them ASAP.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
    this is some good stuff chan. i haven't been around the boards today so i haven't read everything, so sorry about not reading it.

    I think your right to bring up the bonanza plays that skew the scoreboard or the statline. and the bottomline is that those plays are the clutch plays that actually define drives, games, seasons. When they are strung together in chains, you have "good football", you have good drives, you are able to pull out games or finish (one of those dogmatic Manginiisms) opponents when they're down, you are able to put together a season worthy of respect by your rivals and peers.

    It seems inconsequential that such a small thing, like a 3rd down conversion can do that. but they can. The small things add up. Just like the big bonanza plays like a pick-6 or a 90 yard KO return, a 60 catch and run, a FF/FR, an onside kick done well.

    but i really don't know if this, again comes down to "coaching" per se. There are two things that IMO fall on Mangini from MNF.

    • The Onside Kick, which many here forgive, but I, a Mangini defender, will tell you flat out, that was just terrible timing, and in an economic sense, waaaaay too risky given circumstances. We saw the risk capitalized. People say if it works he's a genius. That's not true. If it works, he's still a gambler, and gambling isn't sustainable in the long-run. Gamblers win, only to lose it back to the house.
    • And two: after the sequence of penalties on the two-point try that brought us to the quarter yard mark, IMO it was unforgiveable not to - after the whole debate last week about 3 GL runs - not to put Jones in their to punch it in. NOt even to have Jones or LW in the backfield for the running option, for Play Action!, or to keep the defense honest.


    Those were the two really egregious errors that IMO fall on the coaching staff. Not all on Mangini, after all you have Westhoff in cahoots on the ST calls, and Callahan /Schottenheimer with the input on O.

    Again, alot of what we are seeing is purely execution, operational stuff.

    At some point it will have to go up the chain of command, but at this point, you can't blame Mangini for all of the poor execution.

    Remember back to the days when the Jets were a contender with Curtis and Mawae, and Pennington. We played crisp football. We executed well. We were in games when healthy.

    Herm coached that team. The point is, execution is one of those things. The players have to play the game too. The coach can't complete the pass, and he doesn't throw the int's or cause the fumbles, or fall down on a goalline drop, leaving a slow FB wide open for the TD. (well, i do question why smith is even on any defensive package outside of ST)
    Good post. I agree for the most part particularly that this week doesn't land firmly on Mangini's shoulders (although I liked the Onside kick, our guy had his hands on it, you really can't ask for more)

    I think however that the continual lack of execution, the inability to make the big plays in clutch settings, the inconsistencies, etc.. I believe all fall back on the coach, particularly when it's as pervasive as it's been. It seems that across the board we are consistently inconsistent.

    So, I blame Mangini, but I'm not in the lynch mob ready to tar and feather him yet. He's got time, cause we've done a lot of things that we can be happy about. We've had moments where the defense looked very good. Where the passing game looked explosive, the running game grinding. Those moments have been far too fleeting, but a couple of plays here and there is all it takes to turn this inconsistent mess into a well oiled machine. The game will flow better, we're in need of editing

    I'm cautious optimistic we'll see the beginnings of it against Cincy.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
    Mangini is stuck in a dogma. He's a disciple of dogma.

    Now, don't get me wrong, it's worked for some. But it takes T-I-M-E. It takes time to accumulate the marque players, the role players, and it takes time for them to learn the system and respond as a single organism.

    It takes organizational continuity. You can't fire the guy after three years if you hire a guy to establish a system.

    There's only one way to hsten the process, and that is to find the gems, a true star. Bill Parcells had LT. The Greatest. BB has Brady, and others on defense that he's acquired. But look how long it took BB. It took years of marginal success.

    Mangini got all these players in rush in one offseason, and favre a month before the season started, he took from off the couch. Time isn't just a long-run thing.

    Teams like this need time to get to know itself.

    Right now, putting these guys out on Monday night is like serving a plate of raw carrots at Emeril's.
    Agreed DV, but there's 2 issues. The first being is that time is finite. The NFL season waits for nobody and it's tough to swallow thrashing an entire season as Mangini gets the various parts to resemble an engine.

    Secondly, just like playing the market, the toughest thing to figure out is when to sell. At what point have we waited long enough? At what point has he had enough time? There's no assurances that Mangini will ever put this thing together. Maybe like many a batter in baseball, he peaked in his first year and then suffered when the league figured out how to pitch to him. We could stick with him and suffer through more losing seasons just as easily as we could fire him and watch him achieve greatness elsewhere. In fact, the former is more likely.

    Imo, if this team finishes with a losing record this year I think at a minimum he goes into next season as a lame duck with a 1 year extension at most.

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