Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23

Thread: Pettigrew vs Freeman

  1. #1
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    the 80s
    Posts
    8,367

    Pettigrew vs Freeman

    Well i think this forum has been rife with ppl arguing about the decision to take Pettigrew, basically in light of having our choice of a RB, WR, and more hottly contested, QB Freeman..

    Now the arguement about RBs and WRs seems to come down to how much value ppl see in those positions later on, vs our pressing need.
    HOWEVER, on the matter of the QB issue.. Mayock has indirectly weight in on this for us.

    (As posted in Buzzsaw's thread, though i wanted to call attention to this dichotomy in perticular. please don't merge)

    Ten Nuggets Mined From Mayock
    1. "This is by far the worst year for the top 10 that I've seen. Down around 18, 20, you'll get every bit the player you'll get in the top 10 for a third of the price.''

    2. His gut feeling is Detroit's taking Georgia quarterback Matthew Stafford with the first pick of the draft.

    3. "I can't bang the table for Stafford the way I did for Matt Ryan last year. I don't see an elite player in him every time I watch, which you need to see if you're taking a quarterback that high.''

    4. Mayock, if he had his choice of first-round picks for talent and value, would be around 22. "The value in this draft is at 15 and beyond.''

    5. He says eight or nine tight ends will be drafted in the first three rounds. He loves the best of the bunch, Oklahoma State's Brandon Pettigrew.

    6. He likes Eugene Monroe over Jason Smith, if you're picking a franchise tackle. "Smith's got a better upside. Very aggressive. But Monroe's got the best feet in the draft. He's a really accomplished technician.''

    7. He thinks Wake Forest linebacker Aaron Curry -- who Detroit would play at middle linebacker if the Lions made him the first pick of the draft -- would be optimally used at strongside linebacker in the 4-3 because he can cover, he can play physically over the tight end, and he's got upside pass-rushing ability.

    8. He's scared of Brian Orakpo, the Texas defensive end who's the apple of a few teams' eyes in the top half of the first round. "Buyer beware,'' Mayock said. "He's boom or bust. I don't know if he's DeMarcus Ware or Vernon Gholston. I've seen him have some really good games, and I've seen what I considered to be Brandon Pettigrew tearing him apart. The point is, I don't see it all the time from Orakpo, which concerns me.''

    9. Of the elite quarterbacks, he likes USC's Mark Sanchez the best. "He's the most ready made for the pro game right now.''

    10. If you need a cornerback in this draft, sit it out. There are no corners even well above average, never mind great.

    A year ago, Mayock told me he liked Ryan, who played four years at Boston College, more than he'd liked any quarterback to come out in years. Not the case with the three early entry passers this year -- Stafford, Sanchez and Kansas State's Josh Freeman. "In the last 15 years, there have been 11 underclass quarterbacks taken in the first round,'' he said. "Of those 11, Ben Roethlisberger and Aaron Rodgers are the only clear successes. It's a dangerous thing, picking young quarterbacks so high.''

    Hmm. still want to wait till the later rounds to find someone at TE? ..
    While this isn't the only perspective on the issue, there's weight to what he's saying and to me only makes the the arguement to take Petti in the first, and look to the later rounds for RBs and WRs. like 3-5 if you ask me.

    JI members thoughts?
    Last edited by Paradis; 04-09-2009 at 04:08 AM.

  2. #2
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    3,052
    I want no part of Freeman, so sign me up for Pettigrew if those were the choices.

  3. #3
    Undrafted Free Agent
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Highland Lakes, NJ
    Posts
    182
    While I don't think either will be selected at 17, I'd much rather have Pettigrew.

  4. #4
    All League
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Ithaca, NY
    Posts
    2,706
    they way i look at it is Freeman is what many consider to be a project and could start in 2 to 3 years.

    Pettigrew is a day one starter and ready for the NFL.

    The chances of Freeman being a bust are far greater than Pettigrew imo.

  5. #5
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    22,031
    5. He says eight or nine tight ends will be drafted in the first three rounds. He loves the best of the bunch, Oklahoma State's Brandon Pettigrew.

    and I've seen what I considered to be Brandon Pettigrew tearing him apart. The point is, I don't see it all the time from Orakpo, which concerns me.''


    So what does these parts that you bolded have to do with drafting Pettigrew at 17? He likes the TE class, he likes Pettigrew the best, Pettigrew dominated Orakpo in a game. Are those quotes supposed to convince me that we should by pass a number of guys I'd rather have for Pettigrew because it didn't have any effect at all.

    This is a good thread though because these are the two names I probably least want the Jets to call at 17 on draft day.

  6. #6
    Drafting a TE would negatively affect Keller's growth. I really think we need to push Keller as the feature TE. Take a blocking TE in the 4th. I like Pettigrew, but that's one of the few picks I'd be really dissapointed with.

    QB, WR, and to a lesser extent, DL, are our needs. I love Freeman and think that should be our pick.

    I also think Our secondary is a bigger need than people think. I'd be thrilled if Tanny moved up in the early teens to take Malcolm Jenkins. He's one of my favorite players in this draft and would put our defense over the top IMO.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    9,157
    Neither one of these guys would significantly help this team next season.

  8. #8
    All League
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    3,003
    Memo to GMs: Don't waste your first-round pick on a tight end
    By Vic Carucci | NFL.com | Senior Columnist (posted April 8, 2009)

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09...s&confirm=true

    Another draft and another round of hype about tight ends being selected in the first round is upon us.

    Please make it stop.

    No matter the year, no matter the college production, tight ends are not smart choices in the opening round.

    Don't get me wrong: An excellent tight end is good to have. Through draft history, some tight ends selected in the first round have proven to be superb, even becoming members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame -- Mike Ditka, John Mackey, Ozzie Newsome and Kellen Winslow Sr.

    But show me a team with an explosive passing game, one whose offense is the engine mainly responsible for driving it into the postseason, and I'll show you one dominated by dynamic wide receivers. If a team has a highly productive tight end, he often is a complementary part of the attack rather than the focal point.

    Defenses generally are far more concerned with stopping wide receivers and running backs. Most teams are able to get by with a solid tight end who can find seams in coverage to exploit, provide an outlet for a quarterback under pressure and block -- or at least chip block -- an outside pass rusher. Teams usually can find such a player beyond the first round, and this draft figures to have at least six tight ends or so who fall into that category.

    Player-personnel evaluators will tell you that most tight ends come in two varieties -- receivers or blockers. Rarely does one do both well, and a receiving tight end is always going to be quicker to generate first-round discussion than the blocking kind.

    But should he be a top-10 or top-15 consideration?

    "The guy has to be a rare talent to be a tight end you would consider taking (there), and I don't see that guy in this draft," said an NFL coach who requested anonymity. "Of course, with those teams up top wanting out of those picks, I don't know how much rare talent there is at any position."

    One tight end receiving plenty of pre-draft buzz is Brandon Pettigrew of Oklahoma State. He has mostly impressed scouts with his pass-catching skills and athleticism, but he also draws high marks for his ability to block. Some pundits are projecting that Pettigrew will be selected in the top half of the first round, seeing him as an obvious choice for the Buffalo Bills -- who have a crying need for a tight end -- at No. 11.

    South Carolina's Jared Cook also is viewed as a tight end worthy of a first-round pick, almost exclusively because of his immense talent as a receiver.

    Time for a little reality check.

    Tony Gonzalez, who joined the Kansas City Chiefs as a first-round pick in 1997, is one of the very best tight ends in the NFL. He is arguably one of the greatest to ever play the game. In 2008, he led all NFL tight ends with 96 receptions for 1,058 yards and 10 touchdowns. And all the Chiefs had to show for it was a 2-14 record, putting them in a tie with the St. Louis Rams for second-worst in the NFL behind the 0-16 Detroit Lions.

    Of the five teams that had a tight end with 70 or more receptions in 2008, only one (the Indianapolis Colts) made the playoffs, and the combined record of the other four was 27-37. Dallas Clark, the Colts' tight end, caught 77 passes for 848 yards and six touchdowns, but Indianapolis reached the postseason because of Peyton Manning and, because in addition to Clark, the Colts also had wide receivers such as Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison and Anthony Gonzalez making plays.

    Tight end is an important position, but there's a danger in overrating its importance.

    The Tampa Bay Buccaneers might very well have done exactly that by signing Kellen Winslow II, acquired in a Feb. 27 trade with the Cleveland Browns, to a six-year contract extension worth $36.1 million, including $20.1 million guaranteed. It is the richest deal for a tight end in league history. And it begs an obvious question: Why?

    The Bucs still don't have a legitimate starting quarterback. They've hardly been a free-spending team this offseason, yet they chose to open the vault for a player who had two years left on his contract. Winslow is an outstanding pass catcher, but his five NFL seasons have mostly been defined by a history of injuries. He suffered a serious knee injury in a motorcycle accident in 2005, his second year in the league. In 44 career games, he has put up fairly modest numbers: 219 catches for 2,459 yards and 11 touchdowns.

    "He's a good player but not as good as Gonzalez in his prime," said one AFC coach whose team has faced Winslow. "He's not a blocker at all. I consider (Jason) Witten (of the Dallas Cowboys) the best tight end in the league because he can block as well as catch. (Winslow) is one-dimensional."

    Witten, by the way, was a third-round pick of the Cowboys in 2003.

    "You do have to account for (Winslow)," the AFC coach continued. "If you're in two-deep coverage, a linebacker has to run with him, and not many can. He's also a big threat in the red zone. But you can always slow him down by taking a defensive end out of pass rush and just have him beat (Winslow) up at the line. He's a hot head and can be easily frustrated that way."

    Winslow might make an impact, but the Bucs aren't likely to feel it until after they address a couple of more critical spots -- not the least of which is quarterback.

  9. #9
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    the 80s
    Posts
    8,367
    Nice try. But let's take a look at he's actually saying


    No matter the year, no matter the college production, tight ends are not smart choices in the opening round.
    ...and there's about a novel's worth of 1st rnd bust stories at every position in the NFL. Especially at the famed QB & WR positions. This statement really says nothing.


    But show me a team with an explosive passing game, one whose offense is the engine mainly responsible for driving it into the postseason, and I'll show you one dominated by dynamic wide receivers. If a team has a highly productive tight end, he often is a complementary part of the attack rather than the focal point.
    The Jets are going to have an explosive passing game next year? ... I thought we were going for an defensive identity
    How does blocking and helping our running show up on production charts..?

    Defenses generally are far more concerned with stopping wide receivers and running backs. Most teams are able to get by with a solid tight end who can find seams in coverage to exploit, provide an outlet for a quarterback under pressure and block -- or at least chip block -- an outside pass rusher. Teams usually can find such a player beyond the first round, and this draft figures to have at least six tight ends or so who fall into that category.
    This actually seems to lend strength to adding versatility to that position since Keller's primary job is to catch the ball..

    Player-personnel evaluators will tell you that most tight ends come in two varieties -- receivers or blockers. Rarely does one do both well, and a receiving tight end is always going to be quicker to generate first-round discussion than the blocking kind.
    hmmm, Pettigrew does both well.. sounds like he's the exception to the rule

    But should he be a top-10 or top-15 consideration?

    "The guy has to be a rare talent to be a tight end you would consider taking (there), and I don't see that guy in this draft," said an NFL coach who requested anonymity. "Of course, with those teams up top wanting out of those picks, I don't know how much rare talent there is at any position."
    gee, we don't pick in the top 17 and sounds like this year's crop at other positions is doing wonders to amaze ppl

    One tight end receiving plenty of pre-draft buzz is Brandon Pettigrew of Oklahoma State. He has mostly impressed scouts with his pass-catching skills and athleticism, but he also draws high marks for his ability to block. Some pundits are projecting that Pettigrew will be selected in the top half of the first round, seeing him as an obvious choice for the Buffalo Bills -- who have a crying need for a tight end -- at No. 11.

    Tony Gonzalez, who joined the Kansas City Chiefs as a first-round pick in 1997, is one of the very best tight ends in the NFL. He is arguably one of the greatest to ever play the game. In 2008, he led all NFL tight ends with 96 receptions for 1,058 yards and 10 touchdowns. And all the Chiefs had to show for it was a 2-14 record, putting them in a tie with the St. Louis Rams for second-worst in the NFL behind the 0-16 Detroit Lions.
    Ya cause it's tony's fault there wasn't any talent. KC was still paying the price 11 NFL drafts later for that pick.. I mean those years when KC were throwing up stupid points under Vermeil were an aberration that Gonzo had nothing to do with...

    ..The rest on the buccaneers have nothing to do with us.

    well this convinced me that Freeman is definitely going to dispell that 2 for 11 underclassmen QB in the last 15 years stat
    Last edited by Paradis; 04-09-2009 at 01:23 PM.

  10. #10
    All League
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    3,003
    You can dissect the article all day long, I'm pretty sure his message is plain and clear -- "Don't waste your first-round pick on a tight end" but I also would like to add...especially if you chose a Tight End in the first-round of last year's draft.
    Last edited by dassin; 04-09-2009 at 01:39 PM.

  11. #11
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    the 80s
    Posts
    8,367
    and Freeman is a better choice how... ? you really think he's going to be the exception?
    ahhhh no

  12. #12
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Philly
    Posts
    38,782
    keller was a first round TE that helped the jets beat the Pats... if they didn't make that pick, maybe they don't beat the pats. i wonder how vic carruci deals with that...

  13. #13
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    22,031
    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    keller was a first round TE that helped the jets beat the Pats... if they didn't make that pick, maybe they don't beat the pats. i wonder how vic carruci deals with that...
    And yet people change Kellers position depending on how it suits there argument on here. If it comes down to someone saying that Keller is a TE then people declare that he really isn't one and is an Hback or just a pass catcher.

  14. #14
    All League
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    3,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradis View Post
    and Freeman is a better choice how... ? you really think he's going to be the exception?
    ahhhh no
    To your credit, I think Pettigrew will be a solid pro. Even in the article that I posted it states he could go as high as 11 to the Buffalo Bills which would suck cause then we'd have to account for him 2x/year. I also respect your passion for a guy that isn't exactly the "popular choice."

    Nonetheless, to answer your question, I honestly think in terms of position in the first-round, QB is clear necessity over TE and more specifically I believe that Freeman should be the choice if he's there at 17. The Jets history with first-round TEs is a well-known joke but thankfully we finally seemed to get it right with Dustin Keller. It seems more prudent to address the position in the mid-rounds with a guy like John Phillips (Virginia) or Dan Gronkowski (Maryland) - both are 6'5, 250lbs who also have the ability to block and catch.

    IMO, Quarterback is simply a more pressing need than TE. My personal belief is that there is not a franchise QB currently on this roster and I am tired of the Jets ignoring it. Even with the #1 defense, without a FQB, the Steelers would not have won this past SuperBowl. In another post, I went down the list of QBs this organization drafted in the 1st round -- not one of them is a bust and the first ever was Namath. The track record is very strong and its been 9 years since Chad-O was selected 18th in the 2000 draft. With a new regime - now is the time, and Ryan has no ties to any of the three. Furthermore, to my observations the majority of JI thinks Ratliff will beat out Kellen in training camp (as do I) and that pretty much confirms that his contract will not be renewed after this season. This means that going into the 2010 off-season we're looking at Ratliff and Ainge.

    People love to say lets just sign a FA QB -- here's the list for 2010 (http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/featu...tion=QB&y=2010) -- Rivers/Big Ben/Eli will sign new contracts and the rest, no me gusta...

    Freeman will be there at 17, we won't have to trade up to get him which is likely what we'd have to do if we went after a QB prospect in 2010. His skill-set is ideal for the Northeast and he came from a football pedigree like the Big 3 in our coaching staff (Ryan, Schott & Pettine). We are in a situation where everyone would be fine with him sitting the bench learning the system and getting used to the pro-game. Ratliff is likely capable enough to hold down the fort and in that scenario he just develops longer. I really believe in our new coaching staff and think without the pressure to rush him into a starter would really help him turn into something special.

  15. #15
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Philly
    Posts
    38,782
    Quote Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
    And yet people change Kellers position depending on how it suits there argument on here. If it comes down to someone saying that Keller is a TE then people declare that he really isn't one and is an Hback or just a pass catcher.
    I won't play that game. Keller is a TE who catches alot better than he blocks. The Jets need at least 1, probably 2 more TE who can block better than Keller before the season starts. How they accomplish that, we shall see. If you saw what I did in the 7 round mock, if they don't take Petti they will have to double up in the hopes of finding a gem (not unlike the maddox/rhodes situation brought up on another thread)

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    5,825
    But show me a team with an explosive passing game, one whose offense is the engine mainly responsible for driving it into the postseason, and I'll show you one dominated by dynamic wide receivers. If a team has a highly productive tight end, he often is a complementary part of the attack rather than the focal point.
    I stopped reading that article at this point because Antonio Gates, Dallas Clark, Jason Witten, and Kellen Winslow Jr. might disagree.

    Gates and Gonzalez have proven that a TE can be the focal point of a good passing game.

  17. #17
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Montville, NJ
    Posts
    5,417
    give me TE Pettigrew in the first and WR Robiskie in the second and I'm one happy dude

  18. #18
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    28,110
    I'd easily take Freeman over Pettigrew and I'm not exactly Josh Freeman's biggest fan.

    But atleast Freeman's upside is through the roof and could potentially solve our QB issues for the next decade.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by dassassin View Post
    Memo to GMs: Don't waste your first-round pick on a tight end
    By Vic Carucci | NFL.com | Senior Columnist (posted April 8, 2009)

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09...s&confirm=true

    Another draft and another round of hype about tight ends being selected in the first round is upon us.

    Please make it stop.

    No matter the year, no matter the college production, tight ends are not smart choices in the opening round.

    Don't get me wrong: An excellent tight end is good to have. Through draft history, some tight ends selected in the first round have proven to be superb, even becoming members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame -- Mike Ditka, John Mackey, Ozzie Newsome and Kellen Winslow Sr.

    But show me a team with an explosive passing game, one whose offense is the engine mainly responsible for driving it into the postseason, and I'll show you one dominated by dynamic wide receivers. If a team has a highly productive tight end, he often is a complementary part of the attack rather than the focal point.

    Defenses generally are far more concerned with stopping wide receivers and running backs. Most teams are able to get by with a solid tight end who can find seams in coverage to exploit, provide an outlet for a quarterback under pressure and block -- or at least chip block -- an outside pass rusher. Teams usually can find such a player beyond the first round, and this draft figures to have at least six tight ends or so who fall into that category.

    Player-personnel evaluators will tell you that most tight ends come in two varieties -- receivers or blockers. Rarely does one do both well, and a receiving tight end is always going to be quicker to generate first-round discussion than the blocking kind.

    But should he be a top-10 or top-15 consideration?

    "The guy has to be a rare talent to be a tight end you would consider taking (there), and I don't see that guy in this draft," said an NFL coach who requested anonymity. "Of course, with those teams up top wanting out of those picks, I don't know how much rare talent there is at any position."

    One tight end receiving plenty of pre-draft buzz is Brandon Pettigrew of Oklahoma State. He has mostly impressed scouts with his pass-catching skills and athleticism, but he also draws high marks for his ability to block. Some pundits are projecting that Pettigrew will be selected in the top half of the first round, seeing him as an obvious choice for the Buffalo Bills -- who have a crying need for a tight end -- at No. 11.

    South Carolina's Jared Cook also is viewed as a tight end worthy of a first-round pick, almost exclusively because of his immense talent as a receiver.

    Time for a little reality check.

    Tony Gonzalez, who joined the Kansas City Chiefs as a first-round pick in 1997, is one of the very best tight ends in the NFL. He is arguably one of the greatest to ever play the game. In 2008, he led all NFL tight ends with 96 receptions for 1,058 yards and 10 touchdowns. And all the Chiefs had to show for it was a 2-14 record, putting them in a tie with the St. Louis Rams for second-worst in the NFL behind the 0-16 Detroit Lions.

    Of the five teams that had a tight end with 70 or more receptions in 2008, only one (the Indianapolis Colts) made the playoffs, and the combined record of the other four was 27-37. Dallas Clark, the Colts' tight end, caught 77 passes for 848 yards and six touchdowns, but Indianapolis reached the postseason because of Peyton Manning and, because in addition to Clark, the Colts also had wide receivers such as Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison and Anthony Gonzalez making plays.

    Tight end is an important position, but there's a danger in overrating its importance.

    The Tampa Bay Buccaneers might very well have done exactly that by signing Kellen Winslow II, acquired in a Feb. 27 trade with the Cleveland Browns, to a six-year contract extension worth $36.1 million, including $20.1 million guaranteed. It is the richest deal for a tight end in league history. And it begs an obvious question: Why?

    The Bucs still don't have a legitimate starting quarterback. They've hardly been a free-spending team this offseason, yet they chose to open the vault for a player who had two years left on his contract. Winslow is an outstanding pass catcher, but his five NFL seasons have mostly been defined by a history of injuries. He suffered a serious knee injury in a motorcycle accident in 2005, his second year in the league. In 44 career games, he has put up fairly modest numbers: 219 catches for 2,459 yards and 11 touchdowns.

    "He's a good player but not as good as Gonzalez in his prime," said one AFC coach whose team has faced Winslow. "He's not a blocker at all. I consider (Jason) Witten (of the Dallas Cowboys) the best tight end in the league because he can block as well as catch. (Winslow) is one-dimensional."

    Witten, by the way, was a third-round pick of the Cowboys in 2003.

    "You do have to account for (Winslow)," the AFC coach continued. "If you're in two-deep coverage, a linebacker has to run with him, and not many can. He's also a big threat in the red zone. But you can always slow him down by taking a defensive end out of pass rush and just have him beat (Winslow) up at the line. He's a hot head and can be easily frustrated that way."

    Winslow might make an impact, but the Bucs aren't likely to feel it until after they address a couple of more critical spots -- not the least of which is quarterback.





    He nailed it!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Chica me Tipo View Post
    I stopped reading that article at this point because Antonio Gates, Dallas Clark, Jason Witten, and Kellen Winslow Jr. might disagree.

    Gates and Gonzalez have proven that a TE can be the focal point of a good passing game.



    And if you think Pettigrew is that type of player, you're seriously deluding yourself.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us