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Thread: AFCE: Defensive Focal Points for the Pats

  1. #1
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    AFCE: Defensive Focal Points for the Pats

    http://www.newyorkjets.com/blog/post...s-for-the-pats

    This is the latest in a series of nine Radar entries over the next five weeks detailing trends in the AFC East, downward tendencies each division team wants to correct for the coming season and upward strides that each team wants to continue into 2009:

    The New England Patriots have done so many things well over the years. They won three Super Bowls in four seasons and nearly won No. 4 two years ago. With Tom Brady back in the saddle, they are favored by a few experts out there to win another NFL championship.

    And last season, with Matt Cassel and without Tom Brady, they became one of the few 11-5 teams in NFL history not to reach the playoffs.

    But there were a few things the Pats struggled in last season on defense, meaning, of course, these are the same few things they’ve been working hard at all off-season to turn into positives, especially when they run into the Jets in Weeks 2 and 11 in the coming season.

    One is third-down defense. New England allowed opposing offenses conversions on 91 of 205 third-down opportunities, a 44.4 percent success rate that was No. 26 in the NFL rankings.

    What’s more, it was the Patriots’ second-worst third-down defense since the 1970 merger. The only team that stopped opponents less frequently on crunch downs was the 1972 team that allowed an even 50 percent conversion rate.

    Here are the Patriots’ four lowest defensive third-down rates in the past 40 seasons:
    Season Conv-Opps Pct. Record
    1972 96-192 50.0 3-11
    2008 91-205 44.4 11-5
    1990 84-192 43.8 1-15
    1978 96-220 43.6 11-5

    The other area, which can often go hand-in-hand with third-down troubles, is red zone defense. And this was another Achilles’ heel for the Pats in ’08 — their opponents’ 66.7 percent touchdown rate represented the No. 31 RZ defense in the league, ahead of only Detroit.

    In fact, let’s not go back to the merger but merely to 2000. In the past nine seasons, that rate was the sixth-lowest in the league. Here are the NFL’s bottom six in red zone defense since 2000:
    Season Team TDs-Opps Pct. Record
    2004 Giants 36-50 72.0 6-10
    2004 Dallas 32-45 71.1 6-10
    2002 Buffalo 35-50 70.0 8-8
    2003 Detroit 30-43 69.7 5-11
    2008 Detroit 43-64 67.2 0-16
    2008 New England 30-45 66.7 11-5

    In the Jets’ last meeting with the Patriots, at Gillette Field last season, they did fairly well in these two categories, converting 56.3 percent of their third downs (9-for-16) and 60 percent of their red zone opportunities (3-for-5) in their 34-31 overtime road triumph. All the more reason to be ready for Richard Seymour, Tedy Bruschi, Vince Wilfork, Adalius Thomas and their mates, including new LCB Shawn Springs, when the teams meet again, in the Jets’ home opener on Sept. 20.

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    The only Pats games I watched last year were their two against the Jets. When the Jets got key first downs against them I figured it meant players like Keller were really good, now I see it was a problem for the Pats all season long. I guess this is why they drafted DBs this year.

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    The Pats fans are just as delusional as the Jets fans about the upcoming season
    and the impact the young players are going to have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Boston Patriot View Post
    The Pats fans are just as delusional as the Jets fans about the upcoming season
    and the impact the young players are going to have.
    This is one of the reason I think that team statistical analysis from season to season is pretty irrelevent. 3 quarters of the starting secondary and half of the the LBs will be different from the group that will start the season.

    Almost every team turns over close to 20% of their roster every season, which is one of the reasons this game is so hard to handicap. So all those great stats that this guy dug up mean pretty much NOTHING, since the cast of characters will be so different this season.

    It also doesn't factor in the improvement you will see in the offense with Brady back...along with a healthy, deep and talented RB corps. That will effect the defense for the better as well, especially in comparison with the first 10 games of the 2008.

    What those stats ARE good for are for FO's to be able to pin point areas of weakness and then go about to repair the damage. Sometimes it just a matter of getting people healthy. Sometimes you have to go out and upgrade personel, and most of the time its a combination of those 2
    Last edited by patsfanken; 07-18-2009 at 10:03 PM.

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    Pats defense was horrible last year.. NO question about it.. They couldn't stop anyone on 3rd down and were horrible in the red zone..


    Thats why they got rid of both starting corners and drafted heavy on defense this year..

    They are stronger upfront
    1. brace spells Wilfork
    2. Wilfor and Seymour are in Contract Years
    3. Mayo has another year under his belt
    4. Ad Thomas is back healthy

    The back 4 are quicker and better
    1. Springs and Bolden, plus the depth of their young players make this a huge upgrade
    2. Merriweather looked great last year starting..


    Biggest question

    OLB

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    The other area, which can often go hand-in-hand with third-down troubles, is red zone defense. And this was another Achilles’ heel for the Pats in ’08 — their opponents’ 66.7 percent touchdown rate represented the No. 31 RZ defense in the league, ahead of only Detroit.
    Being second worst behind Detroit means they would have been dead last in most years. Which means that if Manboobs had passed the ball just once during that infamous goal line series in the first game they would have won. And then they pass the ball against the Raiders whose run defense is taking years off of the lives of Raider fans everywhere. If this team can win 9 games with Manboobs as coach then with a real coach we can drive our enemies before us and hear the lamentations of their women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcsully View Post
    Pats defense was horrible last year.. NO question about it.. They couldn't stop anyone on 3rd down and were horrible in the red zone..


    Thats why they got rid of both starting corners and drafted heavy on defense this year..

    They are stronger upfront
    1. brace spells Wilfork
    2. Wilfor and Seymour are in Contract Years
    3. Mayo has another year under his belt
    4. Ad Thomas is back healthy

    The back 4 are quicker and better
    1. Springs and Bolden, plus the depth of their young players make this a huge upgrade
    2. Merriweather looked great last year starting..


    Biggest question

    OLB
    Call me a cynic but I think point number 2 is the most useful.

  8. #8
    The Pats didn't really add anyone worth mentioning aside from Bodden in the off-season. Taylor, Galloway, and Springs are all old men and don't really give the Pats anything they didn't have last season anyway. Their defense as a whole has regressed from their championship years:

    -Adalius Thomas (32) is coming off a season ending injury to his forearm
    -Tully Banta-Cain and Pierre Woods are not starting caliber OLBs in this league
    -Bruschi is very old for a starting ILB and is not nearly as effective as he used to be
    -They lost their starting cornerback and replaced him with a 34 year old CB who can't stay healthy and a gambling CB in Bodden who was abused in coverage last year and when he was in Cleveland
    -Rodney Harrison is retired, so they will be starting a rookie in place of him

    Simply put their defense is not getting any better, but their offense is going to be just as dangerous as they were in 2007. That's where Rex and his new schemes come into play. Last year Mangini's squads played extremely well against the Pats when they were on the attack both offensively and defensively, when Mangini had them withdraw into a Cover-2 setup we let the Pats and other teams right back into the game. And without a large lead in points that Cover-2 plan falls flat like it did the last five games of the season. Hopefully Rex's new schemes and our new defensive additions will help keep the Pat's offense off balance and out of rhythm.

    In short, our offense, as bad as it's going to be to start the year, will have plenty of opportunities against the Pats defense. Bellichick, for all of his success, still has the tendency to play the prevent and let opponents off the hook (where do you think Mangini learned his schemes from?), giving sh*tty or inexperienced QBs and offenses opportunities to stay in the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XingDaorong View Post
    The Pats didn't really add anyone worth mentioning aside from Bodden in the off-season. Taylor, Galloway, and Springs are all old men and don't really give the Pats anything they didn't have last season anyway. Their defense as a whole has regressed from their championship years:

    -Adalius Thomas (32) is coming off a season ending injury to his forearm
    -Tully Banta-Cain and Pierre Woods are not starting caliber OLBs in this league
    -Bruschi is very old for a starting ILB and is not nearly as effective as he used to be
    -They lost their starting cornerback and replaced him with a 34 year old CB who can't stay healthy and a gambling CB in Bodden who was abused in coverage last year and when he was in Cleveland
    -Rodney Harrison is retired, so they will be starting a rookie in place of him
    You couldn't be more wrong here. Let me try and explain it to you so you can see it through those green fog thats distorting your vision .BTW- what is your expertese to claim Woods and TBC aren't NFL starters?????


    1. TBC was a pretty successful starter with the Pats in 2005. He was successful enough to get a pretty good FA contract from the Niners. Granted he he didn't have a great run in SF, but no one out there shined under that coaching staff. You know the failed staff led by a guy who was the last defensive "genius" to come out of Baltimore. With the Pats he was a very good situational pass rusher, and an outstanding special teamer. I don't think he'll start, but he's quality depth. I expect, this year, he will fill both those roles well.

    Woods and Crabel are both converted college DEs. Woods, before he went on the IR he had 2 good games as a starter. Crabel has shown all the flashes that you DIDN'T see in Gholston. He has the numbers to be a difference maker, just not the experience. It will be interesting to see who emerges at the other OLB position. Either way both will play a significant role.

    2. As to the secondary, it has been VASTLY improved, despite your misguided analysis. Springs IS old, but he was the Redskins BEST CB last year. Bodin was the Browns best CB, and then Detroit's best CB. Neither is elite, but BOTH are upgrades over the Delta ONeal, and Ellis Hobbs, who was decent, but hurt them in GL because he was generously listed as 5'9. BOTH Springs and Bodin are over 6'. That will have a big effect in GL where the Pats were so bad last season. You completely ignore the existence of Whilhite and Wheatley both guys who have starter talent. Both guys to DID start in 2008 before BOTH went on the IR...and then there is Darius Butler, who might be eventually be better than all of them. Then add Patrick Chung to an emerging Merriweather and very steady James Sanders to the Safety spot and it becomes better and deeper, when they ended the season with the likes Lewis Sanders at S.

    The 2008 secondary DID suck. 2 of the end of the year starters (Sanders and ONeal) weren't good enough to find work THIS year. But this is 2009, and I think this could be the best defense (for a lot of reasons) they have put out since 2004


    3. You keep harping on how old Springs and Thomas are, and how that will effect their performance. Does that mean that you OL will suck this year because Woody and Faneca are "old". Or you running game will suck because your RB is "old" Or are you "old guys" different from our "old guys"

    In short, our offense, as bad as it's going to be to start the year, will have plenty of opportunities against the Pats defense. Bellichick, for all of his success, still has the tendency to play the prevent and let opponents off the hook (where do you think Mangini learned his schemes from?), giving sh*tty or inexperienced QBs and offenses opportunities to stay in the game.
    Yeah, I guess BB doesn't know what he's doing with all those prevent defenses. I guess all those years of being at the top of the league in scoring defense don't count. Yeah the great Rex is a much better coach. Wasn't he the DC in two of the three WORST years in the Billick regime. Wasn't he the DC of a team that won an average of a whopping 8+ games when he was DC. Yeah, I guess Rex has it all over that overrated gnome in NE.
    Last edited by patsfanken; 07-19-2009 at 11:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patsfanken View Post
    You couldn't be more wrong here. Let me try and explain it to you so you can see it through those green fog thats distorting your vision .BTW- what is your expertese to claim Woods and TBC aren't NFL starters?????


    1. TBC was a pretty successful starter with the Pats in 2005. He was successful enough to get a pretty good FA contract from the Niners. Granted he he didn't have a great run in SF, but no one out there shined under that coaching staff. You know the failed staff led by a guy who was the last defensive "genius" to come out of Baltimore. With the Pats he was a very good situational pass rusher, and an outstanding special teamer. I don't think he'll start, but he's quality depth. I expect, this year, he will fill both those roles well.

    Woods and Crabel are both converted college DEs. Woods, before he went on the IR he had 2 good games as a starter. Crabel has shown all the flashes that you DIDN'T see in Gholston. He has the numbers to be a difference maker, just not the experience. It will be interesting to see who emerges at the other OLB position. Either way both will play a significant role.

    2. As to the secondary, it has been VASTLY improved, despite your misguided analysis. Springs IS old, but he was the Redskins BEST CB last year. Bodin was the Browns best CB, and then Detroit's best CB. Neither is elite, but BOTH are upgrades over the Delta ONeal, and Ellis Hobbs, who was decent, but hurt them in GL because he was generously listed as 5'9. BOTH Springs and Bodin are over 6'. That will have a big effect in GL where the Pats were so bad last season. You completely ignore the existence of Whilhite and Wheatley both guys who have starter talent. Both guys to DID start in 2008 before BOTH went on the IR...and then their is Darius Butler, who might be eventually be better than all of them. Then add Eugene Chung to an emerging Merriweather and very steady James Sanders to the Safety spot and it becomes better and deeper, when they ended the season with the likes Lewis Sanders at S.

    The 2008 secondary DID suck. 2 of the end of the year starters (Sanders and ONeal) weren't good enough to find work THIS year. But this is 2009, and I think this could be the best defense (for a lot of reasons) they have put out since 2004


    3. You keep harping on how old Springs and Thomas are, and how that will effect their performance. Does that mean that you OL will suck this year because Woody and Faneca are "old". Or you running game will suck because your RB is "old" Or are you "old guys" different from our "old guys"



    Yeah, I guess BB doesn't know what he's doing with all those prevent defenses. I guess all those years of being at the top of the league in scoring defense don't count. Yeah the great Rex is a much better coach. Wasn't he the DC in two of the three WORST years in the Billick regime. Wasn't he the DC of a team that won an average of a whopping 8+ games when he was DC. Yeah, I guess Rex has it all over that overrated gnome in NE.
    Christ you are a Pats homer, every spin is rosy for the Pats, every spin for the Jets, negative.

    First off, TBC was an average player at best in SF, he's an older player now, who gives a crap what he did in 2005, that was 4 years ago.

    Woody just turned 31, and Faneca will be 32, that isn't old for an OL, that is a player still in their prime. 34 year old CB's, and 32 y ear old RB's are players at the end of their line, and both CB's the Pats added through FA are nothing to get excited about even while they were in their prime, Springs maybe, but hardly the player he was when he was younger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patsfanken View Post



    Yeah, I guess BB doesn't know what he's doing with all those prevent defenses. I guess all those years of being at the top of the league in scoring defense don't count. Yeah the great Rex is a much better coach. Wasn't he the DC in two of the three WORST years in the Billick regime. Wasn't he the DC of a team that won an average of a whopping 8+ games when he was DC. Yeah, I guess Rex has it all over that overrated gnome in NE.
    You could go back to what BB did with the browns if you wanted to look for negative years I suppose or his first year as the Pats HC..BB is a HOF HC and anyone who can't see that is blind..But you sound just like the homers here when you trash Rex as a DC when the man obviously has talent as a DC and the players love him..As a HC that is yet to be determined..

  12. #12
    You couldn't be more wrong here. Let me try and explain it to you so you can see it through those green fog thats distorting your vision .BTW- what is your expertese to claim Woods and TBC aren't NFL starters?????
    Hey man don't pretend that you aren't a homer either. All I'm saying is that I believe that our defense is going to be good enough this year to win us at least one game against your team. Our offense is going to suck, at least in the first half of the season because we're starting a rookie QB, but what about this partially dismantled Patriot defense gives you such confidence? Vrabel was old, but he was still a very good OLB. Hobbs was short and maybe not #1 material, but he was more consistent then Bodden or Springs for their teams.

    1. TBC was a pretty successful starter with the Pats in 2005.
    David Barrett was a very successful starter for us in 2005. We knew that he wasn't a very good player but he still put up some nice numbers.

    He was successful enough to get a pretty good FA contract from the Niners.
    Javon Walker was successful enough to land a monster deal with the Raiders. Point being, inept organizations overpay for average players.

    Granted he he didn't have a great run in SF, but no one out there shined under that coaching staff.
    Patrick Willis, Justin Smith, Walt Harris, Parys Haralson, Frank Gore, and Shaun Hill all "shined" in SF. TBC didn't because he wasn't a very good player.

    You know the failed staff led by a guy who was the last defensive "genius" to come out of Baltimore.
    If you really believe that Rex is going to coach us to a 5-11 or worse record just because he had the same job as Nolan then what more can I say?

    With the Pats he was a very good situational pass rusher, and an outstanding special teamer. I don't think he'll start, but he's quality depth. I expect, this year, he will fill both those roles well.
    You're vastly overrating this guy. He's a scrub who couldn't cut it as a starter and was a colossal waste of money, why do you think Bellichick is going after Derrick Burgess?

    Woods and Crabel are both converted college DEs. Woods, before he went on the IR he had 2 good games as a starter.
    He was good in pass coverage, but he was invisible as a pass rusher and wasn't half the run stopper that Thomas was.

    Crabel has shown all the flashes that you DIDN'T see in Gholston. He has the numbers to be a difference maker, just not the experience. It will be interesting to see who emerges at the other OLB position. Either way both will play a significant role.
    I'm glad to see you have so much confidence in your current OLBs, hopefully Bellichick thinks the same way so we don't have to deal with any real pass rushers when we play the Pats.

    2. As to the secondary, it has been VASTLY improved, despite your misguided analysis. Springs IS old, but he was the Redskins BEST CB last year.
    No he wasn't. He started seven games last year and was outplayed by DeAngelo Hall in the second half of the season, that's why the Redskins cut him.

    Bodin was the Browns best CB, and then Detroit's best CB.
    And these teams have fared how well defensively the past few years?

    Neither is elite, but BOTH are upgrades over the Delta ONeal, and Ellis Hobbs, who was decent, but hurt them in GL because he was generously listed as 5'9. BOTH Springs and Bodin are over 6'. That will have a big effect in GL where the Pats were so bad last season. You completely ignore the existence of Whilhite and Wheatley both guys who have starter talent. Both guys to DID start in 2008 before BOTH went on the IR...and then their is Darius Butler, who might be eventually be better than all of them. Then add Eugene Chung to an emerging Merriweather and very steady James Sanders to the Safety spot and it becomes better and deeper, when they ended the season with the likes Lewis Sanders at S.
    Hobbs started on a Super Bowl team and played well enough to keep the job since Ty Law left. Bodden has started on sh*tty teams and has done nothing to establish himself as a starting caliber corner in this league so far. Springs is an old man who the Redskins saw fit to release. Those two will be gone by the end of this coming season, Darius Butler on the other hand could develop into a nice player, but that's up in the air.

    The 2008 secondary DID suck. 2 of the end of the year starters (Sanders and ONeal) weren't good enough to find work THIS year. But this is 2009, and I think this could be the best defense (for a lot of reasons) they have put out since 2004
    Be realistic, this defense is going to be either the same as or slightly worse than last year's defense. Your pass rush took a step back with the loss of Vrabel and Thomas's injury, and your starting corner spots are going to be manned by a gambling CB and a 34 year old 2nd/3rd stringer. Chung looked good at Oregon but he's a rookie, and he's going to be your starting SS.

    3. You keep harping on how old Springs and Thomas are, and how that will effect their performance. Does that mean that you OL will suck this year because Woody and Faneca are "old". Or you running game will suck because your RB is "old" Or are you "old guys" different from our "old guys"
    O-Lineman don't have to rely on 4.4 speed or their extreme agility to be successful in this league, and can remain effective into their late 30s. Ray Brown held down a starting job effectively with the Redskins into his 40s for example. TJ, on the other hand, is getting old, but behind him we have another RB who scored 9 TDs and made the Pro-Bowl last year and a promising short yardage RB prospect in Greene. If TJ slows down due to injury or age we have an effective split back offense to fall back on, and have a top-5 offensive line (at the POA) to block for them.

    Yeah, I guess BB doesn't know what he's doing with all those prevent defenses.
    The Jets built up a 24-6 halftime lead in our last match because Bellichick was calling a bad game defensively. Only when his faithful disciple in green and white began calling similar defenses did we let the Pats back in it.

    I guess all those years of being at the top of the league in scoring defense don't count. Yeah the great Rex is a much better coach.
    lol alright dude now you are just shoving words into my mouth

    Wasn't he the DC in two of the three WORST years in the Billick regime. Wasn't he the DC of a team that won an average of a whopping 8+ games when he was DC. Yeah, I guess Rex has it all over that overrated gnome in NE.
    Wow, you don't seriously believe that Rex was a bad coach do you? #2 overall defense last year with backups manning the NT, DE, SS, and both CB positions and an AFC Championship Game appearance where they were one drive away from going to the Super Bowl. If that's a "bad" coach then what does that make Mangini?

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    Well done. This was a great response and makes responding to it much more fun than the usual drivel I see here.

    [QUOTE=XingDaorong;3181391]
    Hey man don't pretend that you aren't a homer either. All I'm saying is that I believe that our defense is going to be good enough this year to win us at least one game against your team. Our offense is going to suck, at least in the first half of the season because we're starting a rookie QB, but what about this partially dismantled Patriot defense gives you such confidence? Vrabel was old, but he was still a very good OLB. Hobbs was short and maybe not #1 material, but he was more consistent then Bodden or Springs for their teams
    .

    I am a complete homer, but I am also a realist, and I rarely over value my own team. Remember I have been a fan when from a time when we made the playoffs once or twice a decade. I've seen plenty of bad Pats teams (though not a many as you have as a jet fan, but you get the idea).

    I don't think your offense will be good enough to win any games against the Pats THIS season, though it is never a shock when a division team beats us, it would be a surprise. Your front line defense SHOULD be good, but your lack of depth in the DL especially could doom it to mediocrity if you have any injury problems.

    Vrabel was the epitome of what a Pats player should be, but unfortunately his play in 2008 showed a decline, and in the Pats opinion made his value as a player less than his hefty salary. IMHO including him in the Cassel trade was a corporate thank you for services rendered. It made sure he got his Million dollar roster bonus, his $4MM salary, and he avoided being released, as a cap casualty. No question he is still a solid OLB. He's like a rock against the run, but he became a liability in coverage and he slumped to only 4 (only one in the last 11 games). If his cap figure was lower the Pats would have kept him, but.....

    I was a Hobbs booster, a minority among Pats fans, btw. But the reality was that he became a liability in GL coverage mostly because of his diminutive stature. Too often he just bounced off of bigger WRs. Just think of the Burress TD in the superbowl as an example. IMHO he's a perfect Nickel Back, and that's where I think the eagles will use him. I don't mean to demean him, its just that the Pats had to get bigger and stronger at CB and Springs, Bodin and Wilhite are all taller bigger and stronger. Wheatley, and Butler are the more conventional waterbug CBs, and will figure strongly in slot coverage.


    David Barrett was a very successful starter for us in 2005. We knew that he wasn't a very good player but he still put up some nice numbers.

    Javon Walker was successful enough to land a monster deal with the Raiders. Point being, inept organizations overpay for average players
    .

    TBC's 2005 campaign EARNED him the FA contact he got. I think he had 8 or so sacks as a situational pass rusher, and was excellent in coverage (though he struggles some against the run when he had to start) I don't know what happened to him in SF, and I thought when he was signed it was because of his special teams play, I never thought he was even in the mix at OLB. However when someone mentioned his sack total, I can see where he MIGHT get into the OLB rotation as a situational player, or at worst provide some quality experience depth as the 3rd OLB off the bench.


    Patrick Willis, Justin Smith, Walt Harris, Parys Haralson, Frank Gore, and Shaun Hill all "shined" in SF. TBC didn't because he wasn't a very good player.
    THere is also the possibility that he was in the wrong system for his particular skill set. That DOES happen a lot in the NFL. BTW a lot of those players "shined" for a time, but some of that shine has worn off somewhat.

    If you really believe that Rex is going to coach us to a 5-11 or worse record just because he had the same job as Nolan then what more can I say?
    No I'm not saying that at all. I have NO IDEA what kind of coach Ryan might be...good or bad. My comments are more of a reaction to the IMMEDIATE blind acceptance by Jet fans, that he was a coaching genius come to NY/NJ to take the Jets to the promise land....and I have to wonder....based on WHAT? His father who was barely 500 as a HC and NEVER won a playoff game. His ability to keep a defense that was great before him and will be great after him on an even keel. At least Mangini coached in some superbowls and on championship teams. Ryan never coached on a team that made the playoffs 2 years in a row. But who knows? Who would have thought Mike Smith would have coached the Falcons to the playoffs last season?

    I guess I'm just trying to point out, that for all the reasons Jet fans want to say proves that Rex will be the next Lombardi, there are equally compelling reasons to show that he won't. Besides I think he's an arrogant egotistical jerk, who only the media would like because he's a good sound byte. That being said Bill Parcells is also an arrogant egotistical jerk, and that worked out well. (btw. BB is also a jerk, just not arrogant or egotistical one)

    You're vastly overrating this guy. He's a scrub who couldn't cut it as a starter and was a colossal waste of money, why do you think Bellichick is going after Derrick Burgess?
    He didn't made enough money to be a "colossal" waste of money, but he WAS a disappointment. But like I said, it could have been wrong system for a certain set of skills. At any rate he's on a vet minimum contract with the Pats and will help on special teams and depth. Decent value for the $

    Were the Pats after Burgess??? who knows. I guess they were if you think everything you read on PFT is true, and I know even Florio doesnt think that. Maybe they were, maybe they still are. BB is one who always hedges his bets. But I wonder how much Burgess has left. Maybe BB would pick him up if the Raiders cut him, but I doubt he'd pay more than a 7th round pick for him in a trade...and THEN he'd have to make the team.


    He was good in pass coverage, but he was invisible as a pass rusher and wasn't half the run stopper that Thomas was.
    Woods started 2 games (actually one and a half) before he got hurt and had one sack. What does that project at....8 sacks for the season. That's pretty much standard for Pats OLBs. It was rare for the Pats to have ANY 2 digit sack guys, even when they were among the top 5 sackers in the league as a team. Lets see how he does if he has the chance to start.



    I'm glad to see you have so much confidence in your current OLBs, hopefully Bellichick thinks the same way so we don't have to deal with any real pass rushers when we play the Pats.
    Here's a bet I'll offer you, so we can remember this thread in January. I'll bet that the Pats, as a team, will be in the top 10 in sacks. Now if the Pats add someone like Sean Merriman or the like before the season, then I'll give you the options to back out of the debt. The bet is a dinner, or $50 to our respective favorite charities. Mine is the Jimmy Fund/


    No he wasn't. He started seven games last year and was outplayed by DeAngelo Hall in the second half of the season, that's why the Redskins cut him.
    I have read several articles where it was cited that he was the Skins best CB last season before he was hurt. Listen, I have no illussions that Springs is the next coming of Deon Sanders. But according to reports at the OTAs Springs looks like he has lost very little athletically and his size will be a possitive factor on the GL, and his abilitity to play S, improves our depth. He's an upgrade, not a "lock down" pro bowl CB.

    Look, as bad as the defense was, the Pats DID win ELEVEN games last year. How much better does the defense have to be to get to 13 or 14 wins....when you add in the return of Tom Brady.

    And these teams have fared how well defensively the past few years?
    THere are a LOT of good players on BAD teams. You listed a bunch in your remarks on SF. Hell, you've had more than enough bad teams with the Jets to know that there are good players on bad teams. God, what about Revis. He MUST suck because he was a cb on the league's 29th best pass defense.

    Hobbs started on a Super Bowl team and played well enough to keep the job since Ty Law left. Bodden has started on sh*tty teams and has done nothing to establish himself as a starting caliber corner in this league so far. Springs is an old man who the Redskins saw fit to release. Those two will be gone by the end of this coming season, Darius Butler on the other hand could develop into a nice player, but that's up in the air.
    Hobbs has aways been the #2 CB with the Pats. Bodin has established himself as a starting CB by BEING a starting CB for the last 3 seasons. Springs was released as much because of his salary as his diminished skills. He'll be a big upgrade over Delta ONeal.

    Be realistic, this defense is going to be either the same as or slightly worse than last year's defense. Your pass rush took a step back with the loss of Vrabel and Thomas's injury, and your starting corner spots are going to be manned by a gambling CB and a 34 year old 2nd/3rd stringer. Chung looked good at Oregon but he's a rookie, and he's going to be your starting SS.
    This wrong is SOOOO many ways that I hardly know where to start. Vrabel is gone and he took his FOUR sacks with him. I don't know how we are going to replace THAT. Thomas is back and our current CB slots are will be manned by a guy who has been a 3 year starter in the NFL and a multi time pro bowler who is coming back from an injury last season. BTW I doubt Chung will start at SS. James Sanders has done a very good job the times he had to replace Rodney. He'll start the season as SS...then we'll see. Unlike the Jets, the Pats don't HAVE to start rookies, though generally one proves me wrong every year.

    BTW since you are going to lose that first bet, I'll give a chance to get to even. I'll bet the same wager that the Pats will be in the top ten in scoring defense next season. How about that one. If the Pats are going to be the same or worse this year...according to you, then you should be giving me odds.

    O
    -Lineman don't have to rely on 4.4 speed or their extreme agility to be successful in this league, and can remain effective into their late 30s. Ray Brown held down a starting job effectively with the Redskins into his 40s for example. TJ, on the other hand, is getting old, but behind him we have another RB who scored 9 TDs and made the Pro-Bowl last year and a promising short yardage RB prospect in Greene. If TJ slows down due to injury or age we have an effective split back offense to fall back on, and have a top-5 offensive line (at the POA) to block for them.
    That's a fair point except that Lineman take much more abuse to their bodies than the skill players over the years. I think you are thinking of Roy Greene? the old CB for the skins who always won the fast man title into his late 30's. Like Joey Galloway some of these guys DON'T loose their speed late in their careers. I was sceptical of the Galloway acquisition until I heard that in the OTAs Galloway was clearly the fastest guy on the field. Go figure.

    The Jets built up a 24-6 halftime lead in our last match because Bellichick was calling a bad game defensively. Only when his faithful disciple in green and white began calling similar defenses did we let the Pats back in it.
    For what its worth BB doesn't call the defensive signals and NEVER has since he's been HC. Dean Pees is the current DC, and he was hamstrung a lot last season with the injuries, which forced him to be very vanilla, and took away from the vaunted "flexibility" the Pats were noted for. That is why the Pats loaded up on secondary depth in the off season.

    lol alright dude now you are just shoving words into my mouth
    Perhaps...but just a little. Again just a reaction to all the hyperbole I've read on this site concerning Ryan.

    Wow, you don't seriously believe that Rex was a bad coach do you? #2 overall defense last year with backups manning the NT, DE, SS, and both CB positions and an AFC Championship Game appearance where they were one drive away from going to the Super Bowl. If that's a "bad" coach then what does that make Mangini?
    In reality I have absolutely no idea what kind of coach Ryan will be. I guess I'm just trying to point out, that for all the reasons Jet fans want to say proves that Rex will be the next Lombardi, there are equally compelling reasons to show that he won't. Time will tell.
    Last edited by patsfanken; 07-19-2009 at 01:40 PM.

  14. #14
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    Why do you even bother debating these guys. No matter how bad the Patriots D might be it always ends up being better then what the Jets can put out. All that matters is the Jets WILL BE looking up in the standings to the Patriots so all this talk is for not.

  15. #15
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    I am a complete homer, but I am also a realist...
    LOL, I love delusional Pat fans

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by patsfanken View Post
    Here's a bet I'll offer you, so we can remember this thread in January. I'll bet that the Pats, as a team, will be in the top 10 in sacks. Now if the Pats add someone like Sean Merriman or the like before the season, then I'll give you the options to back out of the debt. The bet is a dinner, or $50 to our respective favorite charities. Mine is the Jimmy Fund/


    BTW since you are going to lose that first bet, I'll give a chance to get to even. I'll bet the same wager that the Pats will be in the top ten in scoring defense next season. How about that one. If the Pats are going to be the same or worse this year...according to you, then you should be giving me odds.
    This would bring my running total of bets at JI to $250...

    Which is fine, I think I can manage

    If you make the bet for top 8, you have a deal...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite View Post
    This would bring my running total of bets at JI to $250...

    Which is fine, I think I can manage

    If you make the bet for top 8, you have a deal...
    So what exactly is the bet. Are we betting the Pats will be in the top 10 in sacks, or the top 10 in scoring defense, or both.

    BTW if you are worried that the Pats might have the 9th or 10th best scoring defense and be 9th or 10th in team sacks, then you are conceding that the Pats defense will not only have a better pass rush, they are a much better defense that last season's version....which make me correct in my analysis (which is the Pats D will be better), and you are WRONG (saying they will be the same or worse) Why hedge now???? Getting nervous????? Are some of my points making too much sense?????

    Hey I can still be right and STILL lose the bet if the Pats rank 11-15 in those catagories, so why try to beat me down for 2 spots? I sense confusion and a distinct lack of conviction on your part, AGAW. How about it?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by patsfanken View Post
    So what exactly is the bet. Are we betting the Pats will be in the top 10 in sacks, or the top 10 in scoring defense, or both.

    BTW if you are worried that the Pats might have the 9th or 10th best scoring defense and be 9th or 10th in team sacks, then you are conceding that the Pats defense will not only have a better pass rush, they are a much better defense that last season's version....which make me correct in my analysis (which is the Pats D will be better), and you are WRONG (saying they will be the same or worse) Why hedge now???? Getting nervous????? Are some of my points making too much sense?????

    Hey I can still be right and STILL lose the bet if the Pats rank 11-15 in those catagories, so why try to beat me down for 2 spots? I sense confusion and a distinct lack of conviction on your part, AGAW. How about it?
    No, I'm simply improving my odds...

    I tend to gamble enough to know that there's risk in everything, especially the NFL...

    By the end of this season, I'll have probably laid close to 5K on the table between FF, friendly wagers, etc... It's all in good fun, sometimes you win, sometimes you don't...

    I'm not overly compulsive so it makes no difference to me whether we wager or not...

    However, I'd like the privilege of having you fork over $100 (both bets to answer your question) for Marty Lyons...

    I'm sure we agree it's a good cause, as is JF and the two spots shouldn't make a difference... Top 8, since YOU'RE so confident in YOUR team... 8th should not be an issue for either category.

  19. #19
    Bump for Ken

  20. #20
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    All right you whinny B!tch. , We'll split the difference at 9, though I"m crazy to give you even the slightest edge. YOU were the one who said the Pats D would be worse or even. At any rate, I'd have no problem sending money to Marty Lyons charity in your name. BTW if you don't know anything about the Jimmy Fund, let me know. Your money will be doing some real good there. Abd thanks for the bump. I wish there was a way to mark the threads you participate in, sometimes I forget

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