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Thread: All that matters is philosophy and vision. That's all.

  1. #1
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    All that matters is philosophy and vision. That's all.

    So many people here are going on and on about whether Rex should stay or go based on hois performance this past season. You guys are completely missing the point. All that matters is the vision and philosophy of the GM and the coach. If they are not on the same page, they can not work together. The GM's job is to get players that fit the coach's scheme and vision of how to field a winner. How much input on each individual player the coach is debatable and probably is different coach to coach, but the draft and FA pickups are done so with consultation with the coach and whether or not the player fits the coach's philosophy.

    Having said that, unless John Idzik has the same vision of building a contender with a stud defense at the expense of the offense, and a ground and pound ball control philosophy on offense, the guys can not and should not work together. If Idzik believes we should have a strong passing attack with quick score ability at the expense of fielding a top tier defense, then Rex has no business being the coach. It completely undermines Rex to ask him to coach a team that is fundamentally built in a way he does not buy into, and it undermines Idzik's work if he does not have a coach that can coach the players the way that Idzik envisions when he drafts them. It just will not work.

    Now I know a bunch of you are going to jump up and say "then we should have fired Rex last year!!" Well for one, I agree. But, it's pretty obvious Woody did not want to be paying Rex 4m a year for 2 years while employing another HC as well. It's also very likely Woody does feel Rex has redeeming qualities, and knowing it was a rebuild/purge season in 2013 he asked them to get together for the year and see if they can philosophically work it out. I'm sure Rex knew it going into this season as did Idzik. I'm sure they gave it a go, and I'm sure if Rex is fired it is because they BOTH believe they can not make their philosophies work together.

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    Who even knows what Idzik's football philosophy is? I know I don't. He hasn't given an inkling as to what it might be. You may not agree with it but at least Rex has a strong vision and philosophy towards football and has 're-branded' the franchise unless the previous at least two wimps who filled the role.

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    Good post.

    If Idzik had a conversation with Rex and said: "I'm going to build a team similar in philosophy to the Seahawks, 49ers, Steelers, and Ravens, i.e. teams known for stout defense but with depth and balance across the roster." Do you think Rex would say no?

    I just don't see a high-powered offense and a stud-defense as being mutually-exclusive... we see it all over the league... and those are the perennial contenders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinny Testaverde's Niece View Post
    Who even knows what Idzik's football philosophy is? I know I don't. He hasn't given an inkling as to what it might be. You may not agree with it but at least Rex has a strong vision and philosophy towards football and has 're-branded' the franchise unless the previous at least two wimps who filled the role.
    How is Rex's vision any different than Herm's or Mangini's , both were from the same school of win by defense. At least to Mangini's credit he held players accountable and he attempted to some extent to have an offense.

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    Looking at Idzik's past stops in the NFL, I think it's safe to assume he has seen success with the model of a strong defense with a balanced offensive attack. I don't think he minds that Rex is a defensive first guy, or that Rex would prefer the defense be the strong suit of his team. I think Idzik(or anyone for that matter) needs to see more balance, or the ability to balance the 2.

    People can say all they want about how it's an offensive league. Offense may be at an all time high, but you still need a balanced roster. If you have all offense and no defense, you are the Cowboys or Lions. If you have all Defense and No Offense you are the Jets or Bears(from recent years, not this year).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snell41 View Post
    So many people here are going on and on about whether Rex should stay or go based on hois performance this past season. You guys are completely missing the point. All that matters is the vision and philosophy of the GM and the coach. If they are not on the same page, they can not work together. The GM's job is to get players that fit the coach's scheme and vision of how to field a winner. How much input on each individual player the coach is debatable and probably is different coach to coach, but the draft and FA pickups are done so with consultation with the coach and whether or not the player fits the coach's philosophy.

    Having said that, unless John Idzik has the same vision of building a contender with a stud defense at the expense of the offense, and a ground and pound ball control philosophy on offense, the guys can not and should not work together. If Idzik believes we should have a strong passing attack with quick score ability at the expense of fielding a top tier defense, then Rex has no business being the coach. It completely undermines Rex to ask him to coach a team that is fundamentally built in a way he does not buy into, and it undermines Idzik's work if he does not have a coach that can coach the players the way that Idzik envisions when he drafts them. It just will not work.

    Now I know a bunch of you are going to jump up and say "then we should have fired Rex last year!!" Well for one, I agree. But, it's pretty obvious Woody did not want to be paying Rex 4m a year for 2 years while employing another HC as well. It's also very likely Woody does feel Rex has redeeming qualities, and knowing it was a rebuild/purge season in 2013 he asked them to get together for the year and see if they can philosophically work it out. I'm sure Rex knew it going into this season as did Idzik. I'm sure they gave it a go, and I'm sure if Rex is fired it is because they BOTH believe they can not make their philosophies work together.
    We have stud defense just wait till they get older and stronger all you have to do is add a couple of bullets to it for the next 8 years, if they stay. O will get theirs they need 3 or 4 very good players they don't have to be all world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinny Testaverde's Niece View Post
    Who even knows what Idzik's football philosophy is? I know I don't. He hasn't given an inkling as to what it might be. You may not agree with it but at least Rex has a strong vision and philosophy towards football and has 're-branded' the franchise unless the previous at least two wimps who filled the role.
    The only thing we can look at are his past experiences: The Bucs, the Cardinals, the Seahawks.

    The easy one is the most recent: Seattle has an incredible defense and a power-running attack as the centerpiece of a balanced offense.

    The Bucs (champs in 2002): All-time great defense and a balanced-running attack with solid WRs (Keyshawn, McCardell, Jurevicius)
    The Cards (NFC champs in 2008): Solid if unspectacular defense, with borderline-HOF QB in Kurt Warner, great receivers (Fitz and Boldin), meh running game (old Edgerrin James, Hightower)

    What I hope Idzik sees from this is: 1- I have a defense in place and just need to bolster it with depth 2- I need WRs and playmakers.
    Last edited by bigalbarracuda; 12-24-2013 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkeyeJet View Post
    Looking at Idzik's past stops in the NFL, I think it's safe to assume he has seen success with the model of a strong defense with a balanced offensive attack. I don't think he minds that Rex is a defensive first guy, or that Rex would prefer the defense be the strong suit of his team. I think Idzik(or anyone for that matter) needs to see more balance, or the ability to balance the 2.

    People can say all they want about how it's an offensive league. Offense may be at an all time high, but you still need a balanced roster. If you have all offense and no defense, you are the Cowboys or Lions. If you have all Defense and No Offense you are the Jets or Bears(from recent years, not this year).
    Yep look at the 2009 Saints top 3 offense 31th ranked D and a 7-9 record..

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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkeyeJet View Post
    Looking at Idzik's past stops in the NFL, I think it's safe to assume he has seen success with the model of a strong defense with a balanced offensive attack. I don't think he minds that Rex is a defensive first guy, or that Rex would prefer the defense be the strong suit of his team. I think Idzik(or anyone for that matter) needs to see more balance, or the ability to balance the 2.

    People can say all they want about how it's an offensive league. Offense may be at an all time high, but you still need a balanced roster. If you have all offense and no defense, you are the Cowboys or Lions. If you have all Defense and No Offense you are the Jets or Bears(from recent years, not this year).
    This. It's about balance.

    What we are seeing is the result of them completely whiffing on the 2010 draft, Sanchez failing to step up his game, and Holmes gettin hurt/being a bum.

    They took 3 offensive players in 2010 (out of 4 picks) and they all sucked. We got a nickleback out of that whole draft when what we needed was a minimum of 2 solid starters because of the supreme lack of depth we had because of all the picks we traded away.

  10. #10
    I couldn't disagree more with the OP... That's a bunch of fluff.

    GM and coach are separate. A coach has his systems (despite those delusional and clueless people who think that coaches just change systems based on their players) and the GM's job is to get the best players that fit those systems.

    And in the NFL nowadays, the main thing that matters is the QB... Everything else is second to the QB position. You could take Peyton or BRady and throw them on to any team and those teams are going to win 10 games minimum, regardless of the talent around them.

  11. #11
    A head coach MUST be in sync with the general manager. If Idzik believes that bringing in his own coach is best suited for the franchise, he should have the prerogative to do so. Why should Idzik have to hitch his future to a coach he did not select?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsfan1983 View Post
    I couldn't disagree more with the OP... That's a bunch of fluff.

    GM and coach are separate. A coach has his systems (despite those delusional and clueless people who think that coaches just change systems based on their players) and the GM's job is to get the best players that fit those systems.

    And in the NFL nowadays, the main thing that matters is the QB... Everything else is second to the QB position. You could take Peyton or BRady and throw them on to any team and those teams are going to win 10 games minimum, regardless of the talent around them.
    Bronco's were 8-8 in 2011 since Peyton they are 25-6 with the top O in football, last year they were only 2nd..LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth View Post
    A head coach MUST be in sync with the general manager. If Idzik believes that bringing in his own coach is best suited for the franchise, he should have the prerogative to do so. Why should Idzik have to hitch his future to a coach he did not select?
    Parcells the HC wasn't in sync with Parcells the GM..

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Savage69 View Post
    Parcells the HC wasn't in sync with Parcells the GM..
    Well played, but unfortunately for Rex, he isn't the GM.

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    For all the belly-aching about the offense being Rex's fault just as much as Tanenbaums's let's look at the facts:

    2009: Team uses picks to go up and get a QB, a RB, and a OL that the OL coach worked with and liked.
    2010: Revis and Lito Sheppard were our top two CB's. We're picking late in the 2010 draft... #2 available CB falls to us in Kyle Wilson, consensus BPA. The rest of the picks were offense and we whiffed.... terribly... on all of them. Ducasse (wtf), McKnight (talented but headcase), Conner (very likely a "Rex" pick with all the Terminator BS)
    2011: Besides the Scotty McKnight pick (a 7th rounder). How can you blame Rex for this class? Solid, if 2010 was this good we'd be in the playoffs in 2013.
    2012: Tebow for a 4th... ugh... Hill in the 2nd.... ugh. Was this Rex? I just can't see it... we know Hill wasn't his pick.

    My takeaway from this:
    1- Complete inability to scout/develop offensive talent. I think MM changes this.
    2- 2009 and 2010 should have been the foundation of this team... but Sanchez and Greene proved to be mediocre and the only other offensive players that have shown anything have been Kerley and Powell.

    Sanchez couldn't take the step up and carry a team that had some holes. Greene was a one-trick pony. The rest were just JAGs or flat out busted.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by bigalbarracuda View Post
    For all the belly-aching about the offense being Rex's fault just as much as Tanenbaums's let's look at the facts:

    2009: Team uses picks to go up and get a QB, a RB, and a OL that the OL coach worked with and liked.
    2010: Revis and Lito Sheppard were our top two CB's. We're picking late in the 2010 draft... #2 available CB falls to us in Kyle Wilson, consensus BPA. The rest of the picks were offense and we whiffed.... terribly... on all of them. Ducasse (wtf), McKnight (talented but headcase), Conner (very likely a "Rex" pick with all the Terminator BS)
    2011: Besides the Scotty McKnight pick (a 7th rounder). How can you blame Rex for this class? Solid, if 2010 was this good we'd be in the playoffs in 2013.
    2012: Tebow for a 4th... ugh... Hill in the 2nd.... ugh. Was this Rex? I just can't see it... we know Hill wasn't his pick.

    My takeaway from this:
    1- Complete inability to scout/develop offensive talent. I think MM changes this.
    2- 2009 and 2010 should have been the foundation of this team... but Sanchez and Greene proved to be mediocre and the only other offensive players that have shown anything have been Kerley and Powell.

    Sanchez couldn't take the step up and carry a team that had some holes. Greene was a one-trick pony. The rest were just JAGs or flat out busted.
    Sanchez was Rex's guy, he pounded for him ever since he attended his pro day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigalbarracuda View Post
    Good post.

    If Idzik had a conversation with Rex and said: "I'm going to build a team similar in philosophy to the Seahawks, 49ers, Steelers, and Ravens, i.e. teams known for stout defense but with depth and balance across the roster." Do you think Rex would say no?

    I just don't see a high-powered offense and a stud-defense as being mutually-exclusive... we see it all over the league... and those are the perennial contenders.
    Very true. But Rex in his actions actually does. He is uncomfortable with a dynamic offense because turnovers in his mind are higher, and Rex truly believes the job of the offense is to make turnovers at any cost. Seattle, San Fran and Baltimore actually run slightly defensively skewed philosophies so a defense first method of building a team can work. the problem with Rex is he is so extreme and has no balance. It is why he has to go.

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    Def true... but was it Rex's fault that there were no viable alternatives on the team? Did Rex want to sign him to an extension?

    Perhaps he did...but until 2012 there was a lot of hope that Sanchez could take that next step.

    I blame Rex for Schotty/Sparano more than anything.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by bigalbarracuda View Post
    Def true... but was it Rex's fault that there were no viable alternatives on the team? Did Rex want to sign him to an extension?

    Perhaps he did...but until 2012 there was a lot of hope that Sanchez could take that next step.

    I blame Rex for Schotty/Sparano more than anything.
    When you miss on your franchise QB, the GM and coach tandem is usually fired.

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    Just a cop out because anti Rex guys know he did a damn good job

    The rest of the football world will laugh at us more when we fire Rex now of all times

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