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Thread: The Dolans sham bid falling apart as developer

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    http://nypost.com/news/regionalnews/41471.htm

    BIDDER END ON W. SIDE

    By TOM TOPOUSIS, STEPHANIE GASKELL and MATTHEW SWEENEY
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    March 21, 2005 -- The battle for the West Side turns into a steel-cage match today when the Jets and their rivals at Madison Square Garden put in their final bids for control of the MTA rail yard with a winner to be crowned in 10 days.
    Mayor Bloomberg, who has worked doggedly for a West Side stadium since taking office, yesterday predicted that the Jets would prevail.

    "I think the Jets will probably put in the best bid. They've been working on it for three years," Bloomberg said yesterday before marching in a St. Patrick's parade in Park Slope, Brooklyn.

    But he insisted the city is prepared to work with any developer awarded the right to build over the 13-acre rail yard even his arch-enemy, Cablevision, owner of the Garden.

    "If Cablevision has the highest bid . . . they'll have to come and deal with [the departments of] City Planning and Buildings and everybody else, and we'll treat them just as fairly as we treat anybody else," Bloomberg said. "We have not given the Jets anything special."

    Bloomberg hasn't always sounded so optimistic of late. On Friday, he told listeners of his weekly radio show that the Jets could bolt for a better deal in New Jersey if the going gets too tough and costly in New York.

    For almost a year, the Jets had an exclusive opportunity to build a stadium over the rail yard at 11th Avenue and 33rd Street. But that fell apart after Cablevision weighed in with a $600 million counteroffer.



    Cablevision had proposed building housing, a hotel, and some commercial development on a platform over the site. But the platform, which could cost more than $300 million, would be paid for by the MTA.

    Sources yesterday said Cablevision was forced to make a last-minute scramble to find a developer for a proposed hotel in its bid, when talks with the Jack Parker Corp. fell through after a meeting Thursday.

    The Jack Parker Corp. owns the Parker Meridian Hotel and recently built a high-rise residential building on Eighth Avenue and 47th Street that was part of the redevelopment of the Biltmore Theatre.

    Company officials could not be reached, but Whit Clay, a spokesman for the Cablevision team, said the claim was not true.

    The Jets and Cablevision are certain bidders, but sources say there may be at least one more submission from an as-of-yet unidentified developer interested in building housing on the site.

    The Jets had offered $100 million for the site, with the cost of a platform to be paid out of the $600 million Gov. Pataki and Bloomberg have pledged for the project. The balance of the public investment would pay for a retractable roof.

    MTA Chairman Peter Kalikow, in a surprise move last month, opened the development to bids.

    The proposals will be reviewed and the transit agency's board could make a decision March 31.

    The battle over the stadium continued to spill over into the mayoral race, with City Council Speaker Gifford Miller yesterday charging the entire bidding process has been rigged by Bloomberg to benefit the Jets.

    "He made his mind up years ago and now he's trying to make the bidding process fit into his personal agenda," Miller charged as he picked up the endorsements of several Manhattan lawmakers.

    Miller said it's unlikely that any firms other than the Jets and Cablevision will submit bids today because they're afraid of angering City Hall.

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    Originally posted by 2009fatman@Mar 21 2005, 11:31 AM
    Miller said it's unlikely that any firms other than the Jets and Cablevision will submit bids today because they're afraid of angering City Hall.
    honestly, all personal feelings aside, if that's true - don't you think that's a shame? if you live in or come into contact with nyc, especially?

    i mean, we all agree, i'm sure, that this is one of the few remaining developable nyc assets left in manhattan, and the fact that the mta, probably the most cash-strapped entity doing biz in nyc, could get less than free-market value is really a sad statement.

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    True, isired, but you know how many deals have taken place in this city just like that where the owner of the land got less than fair value because of the politics behind the whole situation. It probably happens more than we all know, albeit on a much smaller scale. The city, ever since the start of Guiliani's tenure, has wanted a stadium in that spot for promotional purposes. To them the stadium and the possibilities of what it can bring in far outweigh anything else that can be put there for whatever amount. I guess this thing, in their eyes, to an extent in my eyes, can be to stadiums what MSG is to arena's. THE Mecca.

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    Originally posted by SINYJets@Mar 21 2005, 12:02 PM
    True, isired, but you know how many deals have taken place in this city just like that where the owner of the land got less than fair value because of the politics behind the whole situation.
    agreed, but that doesn't make it right, and it wasn't always a situation that affects almost every citizen in the city...

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    March 22 Councilman Weprin holds hearing on Madison Square Garden's obscene Tax Scam.

    Let's see if Dick Gottfried and Miller the flip floper show up.

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    Originally posted by 2009fatman@Mar 21 2005, 12:50 PM
    March 22 Councilman Weprin holds hearing on Madison Square Garden's obscene Tax Scam.

    Let's see if Dick Gottfried and Miller the flip floper show up.
    is there any precedent for paying property tax on land you don't own? seriously? i used to think msg and the jets should pay all of their taxes, but it was explained to me that since they didn't own the land, they wouldn't/shouldn't pay property taxes, which makes sense to me. in fact, that was apparently the original intent of PILOTs, not to circumvent bonified tax obligations, but to make developers using state-owned land pay some money in lieu of the property taxes they would rightfully pay if they owned it. the non-property taxes the jets would circumvent is somewhat of a unique loophole, b/c there aren't usually so many collectible sales taxes derived in these situations (they're usually more residential).

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    Originally posted by isired+Mar 21 2005, 12:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (isired @ Mar 21 2005, 12:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-2009fatman@Mar 21 2005, 11:31 AM
    Miller said it&#39;s unlikely that any firms other than the Jets and Cablevision will submit bids today because they&#39;re afraid of angering City Hall.
    honestly, all personal feelings aside, if that&#39;s true - don&#39;t you think that&#39;s a shame? if you live in or come into contact with nyc, especially?

    i mean, we all agree, i&#39;m sure, that this is one of the few remaining developable nyc assets left in manhattan, and the fact that the mta, probably the most cash-strapped entity doing biz in nyc, could get less than free-market value is really a sad statement. [/b][/quote]
    Don&#39;t cry for me MTA&#33;

    The MTA is the most badly run, badly organized, mis-managed agency in existance.

    Please.

    As for how sad it is that government and politics have anything to do with major city developments? What did you expect?

    That is like saying... "Isn&#39;t it ashame that PACs have such a death grip on our federal goverment".

    Your power is in the vote.

    BZ

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    Originally posted by BwanaZulia@Mar 21 2005, 01:36 PM
    The MTA is the most badly run, badly organized, mis-managed agency in existance.
    i agree - the fact that they were going along w/ this sham from the beginning, instead of trying to maximize gain on a valuable asset, is ridiculous. only an &#39;out of leftfield&#39; bid by a crazy, vindictive robber baron (james dolan) stopped that madness and forced them to reconsider at all, even if it is with the deck stacked.

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    Originally posted by isired+Mar 21 2005, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (isired @ Mar 21 2005, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-BwanaZulia@Mar 21 2005, 01:36 PM
    The MTA is the most badly run, badly organized, mis-managed agency in existance.
    i agree - the fact that they were going along w/ this sham from the beginning, instead of trying to maximize gain on a valuable asset, is ridiculous. only an &#39;out of leftfield&#39; bid by a crazy, vindictive robber baron (james dolan) stopped that madness and forced them to reconsider at all, even if it is with the deck stacked. [/b][/quote]
    The asset is only valuable to the three people for three different reasons.

    1) Woody to build a stadium for his team and earn more money

    2) To the PowerPlant guys to use as a bargaining chip to build a power plant in Brooklyn

    3) To Jimmy and his gang to stifle any competition from a plan that he had originally backed.

    Beyond that they have no value. It is only air.

    BZ

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    Originally posted by BwanaZulia+Mar 21 2005, 02:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BwanaZulia &#064; Mar 21 2005, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    Originally posted by isired@Mar 21 2005, 03:04 PM
    <!--QuoteBegin-BwanaZulia
    @Mar 21 2005, 01:36 PM
    The MTA is the most badly run, badly organized, mis-managed agency in existance.

    i agree - the fact that they were going along w/ this sham from the beginning, instead of trying to maximize gain on a valuable asset, is ridiculous. only an &#39;out of leftfield&#39; bid by a crazy, vindictive robber baron (james dolan) stopped that madness and forced them to reconsider at all, even if it is with the deck stacked.
    The asset is only valuable to the three people for three different reasons.

    1) Woody to build a stadium for his team and earn more money

    2) To the PowerPlant guys to use as a bargaining chip to build a power plant in Brooklyn

    3) To Jimmy and his gang to stifle any competition from a plan that he had originally backed.

    Beyond that they have no value. It is only air.

    BZ [/b][/quote]
    you better tell the appraisers, you apparently know more than thye do. and every broadway theater that apparently wasted millions on lawsuits in the 90&#39;s to fight for the right to sell air rights. though i don&#39;t hear them complaining today...

    but i hear what you&#39;re saying - it has no value... until it does.

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    Originally posted by BwanaZulia+Mar 21 2005, 01:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BwanaZulia @ Mar 21 2005, 01:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    Originally posted by isired@Mar 21 2005, 12:55 PM
    <!--QuoteBegin-2009fatman
    @Mar 21 2005, 11:31 AM
    Miller said it&#39;s unlikely that any firms other than the Jets and Cablevision will submit bids today because they&#39;re afraid of angering City Hall.

    honestly, all personal feelings aside, if that&#39;s true - don&#39;t you think that&#39;s a shame? if you live in or come into contact with nyc, especially?

    i mean, we all agree, i&#39;m sure, that this is one of the few remaining developable nyc assets left in manhattan, and the fact that the mta, probably the most cash-strapped entity doing biz in nyc, could get less than free-market value is really a sad statement.
    Don&#39;t cry for me MTA&#33;

    The MTA is the most badly run, badly organized, mis-managed agency in existance.

    Please.

    As for how sad it is that government and politics have anything to do with major city developments? What did you expect?

    That is like saying... "Isn&#39;t it ashame that PACs have such a death grip on our federal goverment".

    Your power is in the vote.

    BZ [/b][/quote]
    To be fair, the MTA (including the Long Island Railroad and Metro North) is the single largest public transportation provider in the United States. When you get to be as big as they are, it is DAMN hard to be as well-run as a smaller transit organization, most of which are run just as poorly.

    And another important fact many of you may not know: Ridership Revenue accounts (on avaerage) for only about 50-60% (at best) of the cost of operation in Public Transportation. By operation, I mean just running the service, not any expansion of services, facillities or anyhting other than just running them in and running them out every day.

    Being is such a financial situation is VERY difficult. It is hard to run such a company when you never know if the funding will be there.

    With that said, I hope MTA gets the most money possible out of this deal, as they should. And I, for one, hope it&#39;s the Jets money they get.

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    Regardless of how much mone the MTA gets we will still see raises in fares over the next couple of years. The express buses just went to &#036;5 each way, which is just tier one of the raise...it&#39;s supposed to go to &#036;6 by next December.

    In one sense it&#39;s an inevitable occurance because of inflation, so I&#39;m not that pissed with fare increases. The MTA, regardless of it&#39;s size, should still be run a little better than they are.

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    Originally posted by Warfish@Mar 21 2005, 02:32 PM

    To be fair, the MTA (including the Long Island Railroad and Metro North) is the single largest public transportation provider in the United States. When you get to be as big as they are, it is DAMN hard to be as well-run as a smaller transit organization, most of which are run just as poorly.

    And another important fact many of you may not know: Ridership Revenue accounts (on avaerage) for only about 50-60% (at best) of the cost of operation in Public Transportation. By operation, I mean just running the service, not any expansion of services, facillities or anyhting other than just running them in and running them out every day.

    Being is such a financial situation is VERY difficult. It is hard to run such a company when you never know if the funding will be there.

    With that said, I hope MTA gets the most money possible out of this deal, as they should. And I, for one, hope it&#39;s the Jets money they get.
    careful, warfish - that was an honest, seemingly unbiased assessment - we won&#39;t have any of that here. understand?

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    Originally posted by SINYJets@Mar 21 2005, 02:36 PM
    Regardless of how much mone the MTA gets we will still see raises in fares over the next couple of years. The express buses just went to &#036;5 each way, which is just tier one of the raise...it&#39;s supposed to go to &#036;6 by next December.

    In one sense it&#39;s an inevitable occurance because of inflation, so I&#39;m not that pissed with fare increases. The MTA, regardless of it&#39;s size, should still be run a little better than they are.
    Reality is the general public, even an educated general public, has NO IDEA what goes on inside a Public Transit agency. Complaining that "Issue A" should be better is usually more a case of passenger/rider ignorance of the facts than it is of mismanagement or error on the part of the agency.

    And as to increases, of course they are having them. Since last year, gasoline (and diesel) prices have gone up and up and up. Someone has to pay that cost, and the logical choice is the ridership. And that is only ONE of a dozen items that force transit agencies to raise fares.

    And remember, even with the increase, your contribution to your ride is only paying for 60% (at best) of the cost your ride was really worth. The Government (in various forms of local, state and federal) pays the rest.

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    Originally posted by Warfish@Mar 21 2005, 03:32 PM

    To be fair, the MTA (including the Long Island Railroad and Metro North) is the single largest public transportation provider in the United States. When you get to be as big as they are, it is DAMN hard to be as well-run as a smaller transit organization, most of which are run just as poorly.

    And another important fact many of you may not know: Ridership Revenue accounts (on avaerage) for only about 50-60% (at best) of the cost of operation in Public Transportation. By operation, I mean just running the service, not any expansion of services, facillities or anyhting other than just running them in and running them out every day.

    Being is such a financial situation is VERY difficult. It is hard to run such a company when you never know if the funding will be there.

    With that said, I hope MTA gets the most money possible out of this deal, as they should. And I, for one, hope it&#39;s the Jets money they get.
    While I understand they are the biggest of what they do, they currently don&#39;t get a lot of credit when it comes to budgeting. There are bigger agencies that do it better.

    The same MTA that LOWERED the rate for Metro Card users 7 or so years ago because they had a surplus.

    This is the same MTA that was guilty of money mismanagement a few years back, begged for a rate increase got it and raised it again two years later.

    This is the same MTA that been working on the same projects for 5 years running (#7 weekend work comes to mind) with no plan or idea of when it ends.

    It is not that I don&#39;t think they should be paid for the rights, but to think that this agency is going to do anything valuable with that money is like expecting to give a chocolate ice cream cone to a two year old in a white shirt and expect it to stay clean.

    I would also like to point out that other companies might do a better job managing that extra money and in turning it into something of real value for the city and residents.

    BZ

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    Warfish I agree. But I know people inside the MTA who say things could be better. I could care less. I still get to work on time everyday, sometimes with minor delays on the rails, but so what, it happens.

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    Originally posted by BwanaZulia@Mar 21 2005, 02:46 PM
    While I understand they are the biggest of what they do, they currently don&#39;t get a lot of credit when it comes to budgeting. There are bigger agencies that do it better.
    bigger agencies that are open 24/7/365?

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    Originally posted by BwanaZulia@Mar 21 2005, 02:46 PM
    The same MTA that LOWERED the rate for Metro Card users 7 or so years ago because they had a surplus.
    are you talking about the &#39;free ride&#39; when you buy a &#036;15 card? that wasn&#39;t in reaction to a surplus, it was to promote adoption (the tokens were being phased out, which saved &#036;&#036; and raised ridership).

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by BwanaZulia+Mar 21 2005, 02:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BwanaZulia @ Mar 21 2005, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Warfish@Mar 21 2005, 03:32 PM

    To be fair, the MTA (including the Long Island Railroad and Metro North) is the single largest public transportation provider in the United States. When you get to be as big as they are, it is DAMN hard to be as well-run as a smaller transit organization, most of which are run just as poorly.

    And another important fact many of you may not know: Ridership Revenue accounts (on avaerage) for only about 50-60% (at best) of the cost of operation in Public Transportation. By operation, I mean just running the service, not any expansion of services, facillities or anyhting other than just running them in and running them out every day.

    Being is such a financial situation is VERY difficult. It is hard to run such a company when you never know if the funding will be there.

    With that said, I hope MTA gets the most money possible out of this deal, as they should. And I, for one, hope it&#39;s the Jets money they get.
    While I understand they are the biggest of what they do, they currently don&#39;t get a lot of credit when it comes to budgeting. There are bigger agencies that do it better.

    The same MTA that LOWERED the rate for Metro Card users 7 or so years ago because they had a surplus.

    This is the same MTA that was guilty of money mismanagement a few years back, begged for a rate increase got it and raised it again two years later.

    This is the same MTA that been working on the same projects for 5 years running (#7 weekend work comes to mind) with no plan or idea of when it ends.

    It is not that I don&#39;t think they should be paid for the rights, but to think that this agency is going to do anything valuable with that money is like expecting to give a chocolate ice cream cone to a two year old in a white shirt and expect it to stay clean.

    I would also like to point out that other companies might do a better job managing that extra money and in turning it into something of real value for the city and residents.

    BZ [/b][/quote]
    I&#39;m not going to debate the value of the MTA here, it simply isn&#39;t appropriate IMO for this board (now the political board on the other hand.....).

    If you don&#39;t want them to get the money, fine, you&#39;re entitled to your opinion, regardless of how valid or educated (or not) you may be on the topic.

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    Originally posted by BwanaZulia+Mar 21 2005, 12:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BwanaZulia &#064; Mar 21 2005, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    Originally posted by isired@Mar 21 2005, 12:55 PM
    <!--QuoteBegin-2009fatman
    @Mar 21 2005, 11:31 AM
    Miller said it&#39;s unlikely that any firms other than the Jets and Cablevision will submit bids today because they&#39;re afraid of angering City Hall.

    honestly, all personal feelings aside, if that&#39;s true - don&#39;t you think that&#39;s a shame? if you live in or come into contact with nyc, especially?

    i mean, we all agree, i&#39;m sure, that this is one of the few remaining developable nyc assets left in manhattan, and the fact that the mta, probably the most cash-strapped entity doing biz in nyc, could get less than free-market value is really a sad statement.
    Don&#39;t cry for me MTA&#33;

    The MTA is the most badly run, badly organized, mis-managed agency in existance.

    Please.

    As for how sad it is that government and politics have anything to do with major city developments? What did you expect?

    That is like saying... "Isn&#39;t it ashame that PACs have such a death grip on our federal goverment".

    Your power is in the vote.

    BZ [/b][/quote]
    I&#39;d have to say you&#39;re wrong on that, OTB has to be the worst.

    Where is the money going there?

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